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Fernando Alonso vs Kimi Räikkönen 2014 Part V


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#3901 Kimble

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 20:57

Anyone jumping into a f1 cockpit has a big healthy ego. This is competition at its highest level, competitive people has big egos, even if they don't show it.

 

This isn't as true.  Being competitive and having a big ego are two very different things.



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#3902 Kimble

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 20:58

Exactly. I'm pretty sure Alonso would have been thrilled with all the understeer through the longer, medium speed corners over the years. :well:

 

Understeer is not a negative.



#3903 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 21:09

Understeer is not a negative.

 

:confused:



#3904 tkulla

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 22:01

I hear what you are saying but left 'unchecked' a driver with a preference for something will lead development in a certain direction.  It's only natural.  Please note that I am not blaming FA for Ferrari's development woes as they have developed what's good for him (albeit not overall as fast a car as anoyone would like).  Also, my use of unchecked is purely for ease of explanation. Ferrari should have no reason to 'check' their number 1 driver.

 

No doubt if Ferrari listened to Kimi for 4 years you would have a car that FA would step into and struggle to drive as well as the incumbent no 1 (this is probably akin to heresy to some here who would insist that FA would just 'adapt')

 

There have been drivers in F1 who have found that they are especially good at dealing with a trait of a car that other drivers cannot handle. The temptation for such a driver to keep that trait is very real, especially if they feel it's gaining them time. For the team it really depends on whether the development direction "steered" by the driver results in an ultimately faster car, at least in that drivers hands. Obviously, the only drivers with a chance of pulling this off are established #1s with a lot of credibility within the team, which knows they will deliver if the car is on the pace.

 

Schumacher was definitely this kind of a driver. While he could drive a classic "well-balanced" car very quickly, he could also handle cars that felt very strange for others. When Berger and Alesi succeeded him at Benneton they found the car very difficult to drive. His teammates at Ferrari found the cars there (again by Brawn & Byrne) difficult to drive at times too. When the car was more "normal" then Barrichello was far closer to Schumi than at other times.

 

Alonso seems to be this type of driver too. Whatever this year's Ferrari is doing that Kimi can't handle, he seems to be able to manage. It makes me wonder whether it's a side effect of something else that Fernando wants from the car that the team is giving him. Not that there is anything wrong with that, mind you. For all we know having this "quirk" is gaining them a few tenths over ironing it out to a more "normal" feeling car.

 

Vettel's ability to master the exhaust blown Red Bull is another example. Had both drivers struggled they might have tried to "smooth out" the way that downforce was applied, but since the lead driver found it beneficial it was probably amplified rather than softened. Again, nothing wrong with that if there's performance to be had.



#3905 DrF

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 22:22

In the 2nd half of 2009 they had no other choice but to design the car/setup fully to Kimi's liking and with result. He was phenomenal in the latter half of 2009, maybe you could compare it to what Alonso is doing for quite some time now: extracting the absolute maximum from the car.

None of his previous seasons matter remember, only 2014. His entire career is judged on one year.

#3906 currupipi

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 22:38

None of his previous seasons matter remember, only 2014. His entire career is judged on one year.


As this is this kimi vs fernando thread, what are we supposed to judge how great he was in a sauber?
For all his faults( this totally in jest) alexandros explained it very well at the start of the year, these tires and kimis driving style are incompatible, since he believes his style is the faster one and refuses to change it ,kimis results will be very inconsistent as long as they keep using these tires, while next years car may have a better front end i would not expect miracles.

#3907 Avastrol

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 22:47

There have been drivers in F1 who have found that they are especially good at dealing with a trait of a car that other drivers cannot handle. The temptation for such a driver to keep that trait is very real, especially if they feel it's gaining them time. For the team it really depends on whether the development direction "steered" by the driver results in an ultimately faster car, at least in that drivers hands. Obviously, the only drivers with a chance of pulling this off are established #1s with a lot of credibility within the team, which knows they will deliver if the car is on the pace.

 

Schumacher was definitely this kind of a driver. While he could drive a classic "well-balanced" car very quickly, he could also handle cars that felt very strange for others. When Berger and Alesi succeeded him at Benneton they found the car very difficult to drive. His teammates at Ferrari found the cars there (again by Brawn & Byrne) difficult to drive at times too. When the car was more "normal" then Barrichello was far closer to Schumi than at other times.

 

Alonso seems to be this type of driver too. Whatever this year's Ferrari is doing that Kimi can't handle, he seems to be able to manage. It makes me wonder whether it's a side effect of something else that Fernando wants from the car that the team is giving him. Not that there is anything wrong with that, mind you. For all we know having this "quirk" is gaining them a few tenths over ironing it out to a more "normal" feeling car.

 

Vettel's ability to master the exhaust blown Red Bull is another example. Had both drivers struggled they might have tried to "smooth out" the way that downforce was applied, but since the lead driver found it beneficial it was probably amplified rather than softened. Again, nothing wrong with that if there's performance to be had.

 

A very reasonable post, and agreed overall, in the same way Juan found some aspects of Kimi's car/setup "undriveable" and thus had a different suspension geometry built for him (eventually bringing him much, much closer to Kimi's pace). Kimi is also a driver with his own quirks... though lately perhaps his quirks are being known for his performance dropping like a rock when things change (suspension in 08, tyres and LWB in 13)



#3908 Norm

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 23:06

I have followed this thread for a while now and felt I should share this recent interview with Rob Smedley. He provides some interesting insight into the much-maligned Fernando. I hope this doesn't stroke any fires, but I believe many respect Smedley and thought it was important to share.

 

http://richlandf1.com/?p=29190 



#3909 Codeso87

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 23:07

Understeer is not a negative.


It depend. Sometimes it is true that it make easy to put power down, and the cars can be fast and predictible (old Renaults). The Ferrari also understeer and it is good in very twisty circuit where grip matter and power not.

So it is Kimi having problems. Ferrari choice (if it is choice) is not bad. But Kimi can't drive it, so he has to improve. Imagine next car has same balance!

#3910 warp

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 23:17

 Imagine next car has same balance!

 

Or Pirelli come out with compounds that do not suit him...



#3911 johnzaxxon

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 00:07

No doubt if Ferrari listened to Kimi for 4 years you would have a car that FA would step into and struggle to drive as well as the incumbent no 1 (this is probably akin to heresy to some here who would insist that FA would just 'adapt')

Kimi was McLaren's driver between 2002 and 2006. That's 5 years. When Alonso stepped into McLaren in 2007, he finished second in the opening round of the season and won the following race, even though his car was designed according to Kimi's precise and accurate feedback and was shod with Bridgestone tyres, which didn't suit Alonso's driving style.

 

So your theory is not entirely convincing.



#3912 Thomas99

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 00:16

So we're still at the same point we have been all year. The bare facts, Fernando is performing, Kimi is fairly hopeless so far.



#3913 pusko

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 00:26

Facts vs a bit of fiction from some...
Kimi should just STFU and driver the damn car. It must be hard for him to complain all the time. After seeing this season so far I firmly believe Kimi wouldn't be able to beat Alonso in any type of F1 car. He might be close, but over the course of the whole season...no way. Never was a Kimi fan, but i'm a bit disapointed in his performance. Would love to see them together in 2015 , but I guess it ain't gonna happen.

#3914 warp

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 01:19

Facts vs a bit of fiction from some...
Kimi should just STFU and driver the damn car. It must be hard for him to complain all the time. After seeing this season so far I firmly believe Kimi wouldn't be able to beat Alonso in any type of F1 car. He might be close, but over the course of the whole season...no way. Never was a Kimi fan, but i'm a bit disapointed in his performance. Would love to see them together in 2015 , but I guess it ain't gonna happen.

 

In the best interest for Ferrari, they need to fix the car to suit BOTH drivers better in order to maximise points. Teams do care for the WCC, drivers about the WDC.

Since Fernando is more adaptable, it only makes sense to make the car more neutral so Kimi can drive it.

 

Or... they can get other drivers.

Or... they can keep Kimi and redesign the car hoping that whomever jumps in the other car can adapt to it.



#3915 adumbo

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 03:48

I have followed this thread for a while now and felt I should share this recent interview with Rob Smedley. He provides some interesting insight into the much-maligned Fernando. I hope this doesn't stroke any fires, but I believe many respect Smedley and thought it was important to share.

 

http://richlandf1.com/?p=29190

That was an interesting opinion. And even more so from an engineer on the other side of the garage.



#3916 kosmos

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 03:51

I have followed this thread for a while now and felt I should share this recent interview with Rob Smedley. He provides some interesting insight into the much-maligned Fernando. I hope this doesn't stroke any fires, but I believe many respect Smedley and thought it was important to share.

 

http://richlandf1.com/?p=29190

 

Already posted but don't worry people will ignore it because is not convinient. :up:



#3917 Gorma

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 05:05

Kimi should just STFU and driver the damn car.

I don't think Kimi would have any problems not giving interviews, but everyone else might.

#3918 Lontano

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 05:33

There have been drivers in F1 who have found that they are especially good at dealing with a trait of a car that other drivers cannot handle. The temptation for such a driver to keep that trait is very real, especially if they feel it's gaining them time. For the team it really depends on whether the development direction "steered" by the driver results in an ultimately faster car, at least in that drivers hands. Obviously, the only drivers with a chance of pulling this off are established #1s with a lot of credibility within the team, which knows they will deliver if the car is on the pace.

Schumacher was definitely this kind of a driver. While he could drive a classic "well-balanced" car very quickly, he could also handle cars that felt very strange for others. When Berger and Alesi succeeded him at Benneton they found the car very difficult to drive. His teammates at Ferrari found the cars there (again by Brawn & Byrne) difficult to drive at times too. When the car was more "normal" then Barrichello was far closer to Schumi than at other times.

Alonso seems to be this type of driver too. Whatever this year's Ferrari is doing that Kimi can't handle, he seems to be able to manage. It makes me wonder whether it's a side effect of something else that Fernando wants from the car that the team is giving him. Not that there is anything wrong with that, mind you. For all we know having this "quirk" is gaining them a few tenths over ironing it out to a more "normal" feeling car.

Vettel's ability to master the exhaust blown Red Bull is another example. Had both drivers struggled they might have tried to "smooth out" the way that downforce was applied, but since the lead driver found it beneficial it was probably amplified rather than softened. Again, nothing wrong with that if there's performance to be had.


So they made a bad car on purpose?

#3919 Lontano

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 05:38

I don't think Kimi would have any problems not giving interviews, but everyone else might.


He is not making any excuses for himself. Recognising that he cannot feel the car and doesn't understand it when the season is almost over is accepting that his driving style is flawed. It doesn't look like he is trying to hide behind excuses.

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#3920 Gorma

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 05:52

He is not making any excuses for himself. Recognising that he cannot feel the car and doesn't understand it when the season is almost over is accepting that his driving style is flawed. It doesn't look like he is trying to hide behind excuses.

I don't think it's that. I just don't think Kimi and his side of the garage understand the car at all, because the season is almost over and they don't seem to have working basic setup for the car that they can work on for each track. It seems that they need to start all over again each weekend. In the Singapore qualifying the car was "perfect" for the first time this season and Kimi was immediately on pace. This week nothing had changed but the car was totally different. Of course some seem to be arguing that Kimi once again forgot how to drive. 



#3921 Lontano

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:23

I don't think it's that. I just don't think Kimi and his side of the garage understand the car at all, because the season is almost over and they don't seem to have working basic setup for the car that they can work on for each track. It seems that they need to start all over again each weekend. In the Singapore qualifying the car was "perfect" for the first time this season and Kimi was immediately on pace. This week nothing had changed but the car was totally different. Of course some seem to be arguing that Kimi once again forgot how to drive.


As I have been saying all along, there's something in this year's car the Kimi simply cannot adapt to. For his own sake let's hope it's the design of the car and not the inherent characteristics of the cars with this regulations.

#3922 Gorma

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:28

As I have been saying all along, there's something in this year's car the Kimi simply cannot adapt to. For his own sake let's hope it's the design of the car and not the inherent characteristics of the cars with this regulations.

I hope it is just the front pull rod which we all know limits the setup possibilities. I don't think it is the regulations since it would affected a lot more drivers than just Kimi. 



#3923 Oho

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:28

I don't think it's that. I just don't think Kimi and his side of the garage understand the car at all..

 

No the odds are good by now they know pretty well whats wrong with the car, knowing how fix is an entirely different proposition.



#3924 FirstWatt

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:41

Now would you believe it.... http://www.autosport...t.php/id/116219 :drunk:

Good chances are that nothing is wrong with the car per se.
It's just that in Suzuka they had the two harder compounds, as opposed to Singapore with the two soft compounds.
He may struggle to put heat in the tires, and they start graining because of this.

I think what he mostly would need is a tyre which does work with his driving style. Unfortunately for Kimi, we are no more in those times when MSc could test hundreds of tyres in thousends of test kilometers to develop the tyre to suit him best.

#3925 Gorma

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:50

Good chances are that nothing is wrong with the car per se.
It's just that in Suzuka they had the two harder compounds, as opposed to Singapore with the two soft compounds.
He may struggle to put heat in the tires, and they start graining because of this.

It's not that because the intermediates worked for couple of laps and then started graining. That's what Kimi has been saying all season. If it were that he couldn't get enough heat into the tyres then then the tyres would not work for a while and then start graining. They just wouldn't work at all.



#3926 Oho

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:53

It's not that because the intermediates worked for couple of laps and then started graining. That's what Kimi has been saying all season. If it were that he couldn't get enough heat into the tyres then then the tyres would not work for a while and then start graining. They just wouldn't work at all.

 

They are baking hot when put under the car. It is not the tread temperature per say that's the likely the issue its the carcass temperature.

 

Like I noted earlier, got it mixed up, in 2013 with steel belts he was doing just fine if put modestly but lost some of his form as soon as they went back to kevlar belts.


Edited by Oho, 09 October 2014 - 06:55.


#3927 SophieB

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 07:01

The farewell tour of this thread (probably) concludes here