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Will this be the end of the sausage kerb!? [GP3 crash]


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#1 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 21:15

http://www1.skysport...rrel-roll-crash

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#2 scheivlak

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 21:18

For use in driving-backwards races, yes.



#3 August

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 21:28

Knowing the FIA, most likely there will be a knee-jerk reaction to a freak accident.



#4 HaydenFan

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 21:33

Geebus! That is what we call a crash. Even IndyCar hasn't topped that in a few years. 

 

Never understood the idea behind the kerb design. Allows you to use the kerbing to cut the corner, while still having the penalty that occurred with the former kerbing. Similar thing happened to a forward going Caterham in Malaysia that about took off into orbit after smashing into one of these kerbs. 



#5 NoSanityClause

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 21:34

Yuri Gagarin, is that you?



#6 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 21:46

This is always the danger of having kerbs. Take them away and drivers will abuse track limits. Which one do you prefer?



#7 Dolph

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 22:03

 

Well, its a faulty design. I'm sure someone competent can come up with a design that doesn't lauch cars.



#8 redreni

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 22:06

It might be the end for sausage kerbs in that particular spot. Call it knee-jerk if you like, but that car got some serious height and accidents like that are a warning. Cars that go that high can potentially come into contact with catch-fencing, marshalls, and maybe even spectators, and that's unacceptable. You can either heed the warning or wait until something bad happens.

 

I think, though, that a proportionate response is needed. We mustn't lose sight of why we have this type of kerb - to deter abuse of track limits. But that corner has one of the highest approach speeds of any on the calendar, and what's an appropriate deterrant to corner-cutting for a car that has braked normally and travelling at a speed that's appropriate to the corner (i.e. slowly) is always going to be a considerable hazard for any car that has lost it early in the braking phase and which arrives sideways at high speed. If the approach was slower, it wouldn't be such a problem. Maybe technology could be developed where the kerb can be raised and lowered, and when it's lowered the track is completely flat? It could be linked to a CCTV camera and an image-processing system that would detect when a car fails to decelerate at anything like the normal rate as it approaches, and lowers the kerb to avoid making the ensuing accident worse?



#9 redreni

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 22:08

This is always the danger of having kerbs. Take them away and drivers will abuse track limits. Which one do you prefer?

 

They wouldn't be allowed to put a kerb like that in a corner that's meant to be taken fast, like Radillon, for example. They're allowed to have it at the bus stop because it's got a slow apex speed. The problem is it's not just the apex speed that matters, it's the approach speed, because as we can see from the clip, a car that goes out of control at the braking point arrives at the apex of the turn a good bit faster than the normal apex speed.


Edited by redreni, 22 August 2014 - 22:09.


#10 alfa1

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 23:29

a car that goes out of control at the braking point arrives at the apex of the turn a good bit faster than the normal apex speed.

 

Just like Rubens Barrichello, San Marino, 1994.

 

The FIA didnt put a stop to high kerbs launching cars after that weekend, why should they start now?

 



#11 chipmcdonald

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 23:32

Kerbs are not the only way of enforcing limits, everyone complains of bollards breaking but it's not like you couldn't design one to last longer.  Or merely have a simple-flip down sensor at the g-apex that indicates when a driver has gone wide. 



#12 George Costanza

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 23:52

Just like Rubens Barrichello, San Marino, 1994.

 

The FIA didnt put a stop to high kerbs launching cars after that weekend, why should they start now?

 

 

That brings some horrible memories....



#13 Tsarwash

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 01:49

It must be possible to have a series of smaller kerbs rather than one big one, that would deter cutting the corner but not run the risk of this shocking accident. I'm not any kind of safety nut, but that sort of thing is unacceptable. You cannot have a car being launched six or seven foot off the ground by a safety feature. 



#14 Atreiu

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 02:01

This is always the danger of having kerbs. Take them away and drivers will abuse track limits. Which one do you prefer?

 

 

No kerbs but sand, gravel and grass all around.


Edited by Atreiu, 23 August 2014 - 02:01.


#15 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 02:12

No real answer. Normally the car would just slide over the kerb without much damage. Any kerb has potential to launch cars. Kerbs though are needed to keep the cars off the infield! 



#16 ClubmanGT

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 02:15

No kerbs but sand, gravel and grass all around.

 

Ugh, typical half-measure. The real answer is digging out the sides of the track limits and having huge tanks of water for the calls to fall into. 



#17 garagetinkerer

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 02:26

Ugh, typical half-measure. The real answer is digging out the sides of the track limits and having huge tanks of water for the calls to fall into. 

The Clarkson response will have been to have snipers shoot the tyres...

 

Ideally a bit of grass/ turf further helped by tarmac and then finally gravel. If you run wide, then you slide, if you don't brake, but try to speed up, comes the gravel picking up the car.



#18 MattPete

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 02:50

Why not leave the curb alone and backfill the area?  The problem is that the car hit something that was elevated, and that launched it upward.  If you backfilled the area with soil, the grassy area would have been at the same elevation as the top of the curb, and the car would have sailed over the curb and dropped down onto the track.



#19 HP

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 05:41

Why not leave the curb alone and backfill the area?  The problem is that the car hit something that was elevated, and that launched it upward.  If you backfilled the area with soil, the grassy area would have been at the same elevation as the top of the curb, and the car would have sailed over the curb and dropped down onto the track.

The car not being lifted, the car crosses the track for a possible collision with another car. Is that better? They need IMO look at how to be able to slow down cars quicker. What amazed me is how smooth the grassy surface is. Great job to avoid such things as we've seen in Malaysia 2008 during FP1 where Coulthard's RBR failed spectacularly on uneven ground. At the root was a component failure. Still surface is as always an issue.



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#20 yasushi888

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 06:53

Knowing the FIA, most likely there will be a knee-jerk reaction to a freak accident.

A ban on corners would solve it



#21 andyb1273

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:28

Hmm, people still find a way to crash without corners...



#22 johnmhinds

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:55

Knowing the FIA, most likely there will be a knee-jerk reaction to a freak accident.

 

Losing it under breaking is hardly a freak accident...



#23 Gyno

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 08:03

Have a surface that has very low grip on the outside of the white line and that gets stuck on  warm tires and reduces their grip by 50% for the next few corners and there will be no corner cuttings.

 

Or

 

SPIKES in the ground and the driver gets a flat tire if they run over it.



#24 PayasYouRace

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 08:09

One option might be to have a wall before the chicane, at a shallow angle, so a car losing it in that spot would be directed away from the chicane. It would not cross the track or the apex, but instead go off on the outside of the turn into the runoff.



#25 johnmhinds

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 08:30

Have a surface that has very low grip on the outside of the white line and that gets stuck on  warm tires and reduces their grip by 50% for the next few corners and there will be no corner cuttings.

 

Or

 

SPIKES in the ground and the driver gets a flat tire if they run over it.

 

Sticking stuff to the tyres will only result in it being dragged onto the track, better to just strip the top layer off the tyres if you run wide at speed.

 

And that has already been done at some circuits:

 

projects_DSC_7524.jpg

 

les-pistes_01.jpg


Edited by johnmhinds, 23 August 2014 - 08:36.


#26 Bloggsworth

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 15:35

 

 

les-pistes_01.jpg

 

Do wish you hadn't posted this, it's giving me a migraine...

 

It's the rule od unintended consequences - Cure one problem by creating another.



#27 muramasa

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 22:10

Why not leave the curb alone and backfill the area?  The problem is that the car hit something that was elevated, and that launched it upward.  If you backfilled the area with soil, the grassy area would have been at the same elevation as the top of the curb, and the car would have sailed over the curb and dropped down onto the track.

that's certainly one option, but if the kerb on outside is sausage, then the car would still lift off there. Probably there shouldnt be any sausage kerb at spots where there's possibility that a car can come sliding at very high speed.

 

One option might be to have a wall before the chicane, at a shallow angle, so a car losing it in that spot would be directed away from the chicane. It would not cross the track or the apex, but instead go off on the outside of the turn into the runoff.

That's one valid idea too. Montreal's hairpin came to my mind. That corner isnt perfect of course, but a guide wall can divert the car from riding on the inside sausage, as well as going T-boning into the car that's already leaving the apex. Of course that wouldnt prevent T-bone into cars in front that just started or in the middle of turning in, but to prevent it completely you have to ban all the corners.



#28 nosecone

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 09:58

I'm bringing up this thread because todays Formula E race showed once more how dangerous sausage kerbs are.

 

Heidfeld's crash was really dangerous and he should be lucky that he can walk away without any injuries.

 

That should be the end of sausage kerbs


Edited by nosecone, 13 September 2014 - 10:03.


#29 aditya-now

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 10:04

I'm bringing up this thread because todays Formula E race showed once more how dangerous sausage kerbs are.

 

Heidfeld's crash was really dangerous and he should be lucky that he can walk away without any injuries.

 

That should be the end of sausage kerbs

 

What is the alternative for sausage kerbs?



#30 aditya-now

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 10:06

Sticking stuff to the tyres will only result in it being dragged onto the track, better to just strip the top layer off the tyres if you run wide at speed.

 

 

 

les-pistes_01.jpg

 

Is this track Martini - sponsored? 

Is it Le Castellet?



#31 nosecone

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 10:10

What is the alternative for sausage kerbs?

 

The purpose of sausage kerbs is to prevent drivers from cutting the corners. And i think there many alternatives for them. You can put everything there but not something that throws the cars up in the air.

 

Put small traffic cones at the corner for instance



#32 sportyskells

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 10:11

Paul Ricard, which is hosting a race this weekend i think of some sort



#33 Massa

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 10:58

Just like Rubens Barrichello, San Marino, 1994.

 

The FIA didnt put a stop to high kerbs launching cars after that weekend, why should they start now?

 

 

 

I remember this crash and this horrible weekend well.. ( Ratzenberger, Senna.. )

 

Rubens is very lucky to be alive, these cars had no security, they were dangerous..



#34 KinoNoNo

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 11:49

Damn that was a nasty crash.

 

At Spa at least the car landed in a run-off area, but Heidfeld's crash was life threatening the way it landed on top of the wall like that. 



#35 BobbyRicky

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 12:24

 

Is this track Martini - sponsored? 

Is it Le Castellet?

 

 

Paul-Ricard.



#36 DS27

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 12:30

What an eye-sore.

#37 DampMongoose

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 12:30

Modern track problem. Wouldn't have happened in the past at spa. The Barb wire. Trees or houses would have slowed him down.

#38 muramasa

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 13:00

Modern track problem. Wouldn't have happened in the past at spa. The Barb wire. Trees or houses would have slowed him down.

If there was no sausage Nick wouldve just slid into barrier then to escape zone without being launched, far less dangerous.

Sausage shouldnt be in a position where it's possible to ride it from off-the-track. At that specific corner at Beijing, barrier itself couldve been the inner track limit. I dont see no hassle by that.

If they need to have space between kerb and wall for visibility, they need to make a kerb that has very long leading edge so that car wouldnt launch, if not then just put no 3D object as a kerb.



#39 Jerem

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 17:03

- The GP3 crash causing this topic.

- Chilton's crash in Monza

- Heidfeld's e-crash in Beijing.

 

That's 3 incidents in 3 weeks that look nastier than they should because of the sausage kerbs (Max didn't crash heavily though thanks to gravel, but the landing looked quite bad).

They need to find something that is not sausage kerb and that is not tarmac, that would not launch cars in the air, penalize drivers running it over... apart from grass and gravel, I can't think of anything else.



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#40 Ellios

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 17:41

Formula E. Nico Prost and Nick Heidfeld HUGE CRASH

 

 

 

 

 

Dario Franchitti :up:


Edited by Ellios, 13 September 2014 - 17:43.


#41 Risil

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Posted 13 September 2014 - 18:11

Why you'd put little ramps on the inside of a chicane is beyond me. Even Oscar Pistorius's legal team couldn't argue that the GP3 or Formula E crashes were unforeseen consequences of the design.


Edited by Risil, 13 September 2014 - 18:12.


#42 ANF

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 00:36

- The GP3 crash causing this topic.

- Chilton's crash in Monza

- Heidfeld's e-crash in Beijing.

 

That's 3 incidents in 3 weeks that look nastier than they should because of the sausage kerbs (Max didn't crash heavily though thanks to gravel, but the landing looked quite bad).

They need to find something that is not sausage kerb and that is not tarmac, that would not launch cars in the air, penalize drivers running it over... apart from grass and gravel, I can't think of anything else.

By the look of it, they might as well use a ****ing land mine. Heidfeld's accident is the most disturbing thing I've seen since... I don't know.



#43 Knot

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 01:45

Kerbs are not the only way of enforcing limits, everyone complains of bollards breaking but it's not like you couldn't design one to last longer.  Or merely have a simple-flip down sensor at the g-apex that indicates when a driver has gone wide. 

 

A really good solution would be to get rid of kerbs, and use sensors as you've said. Sensors will then trip a 5 or so second rev limiter in the offending car.



#44 Ev0d3vil

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 02:56

A really good solution would be to get rid of kerbs, and use sensors as you've said. Sensors will then trip a 5 or so second rev limiter in the offending car.


That really sounds like the PSP version of F1 06.. And on the ps3 where they would cut your revs if you cut a corner.

#45 solochamp07

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 03:08

What is the alternative for sausage kerbs?

 

Bacon. Duh...

 

 

Is this track Martini - sponsored? 

Is it Le Castellet?

 

 

There's a track there? Oh, now I see it. 



#46 Talisker

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 08:56

I've analysed the accident very carefully, and I believe the major contributing factor was the fact that Tereschenko was driving quite fast in a racing car at the time. If we're looking for something to ban, that's where I'd focus my attention.



#47 PassWind

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 09:03

 

 

Didn't seem like too big a deal to me, the roll hoop did its job. yeah it got some height, but really not much you could do about except remove it altogether and have drivers making up the track as they see fit. 



#48 Maustinsj

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 18:43

It could be the end of the horse-drawn zeppelin.