41 replies to this topic

[camberley]

Red Bull won in Hungary and today on a low downforce track in Spa they were extremely competitive. Even if you discount the time incurred by Nico in changing his wing, it still would have been very close between Ricciardo and Rosberg.

Edited by camberley, 24 August 2014 - 15:04.

[Ev0d3vil]

Red bull won in Austria? Next year you mean? I think you meant Canada.

Edited by Ev0d3vil, 24 August 2014 - 15:01.

[TheUltimateWorrier]

No, Mercedes still has the best car.  They just have the slight problem of being run by boneheads and having a numbskull in the #6 car...

Edited by TheUltimateWorrier, 24 August 2014 - 15:03.

[sergeym]

I think RBR is not quite there yet. They were competitive today, but without Rosberg screwing up, Mercs would have likely scored 1-2.

[jestaudio]

No, Mercedes still has the best car.  They just have the slight problem is being run by boneheads and having a numbskull in the #6 car...

ouch

[Seanspeed]

I don't think so. I think Red Bull merely hit upon an aero configuration that worked well here at Spa. In the dry.

And both Mercedes drivers had bad races.

Edited by Seanspeed, 24 August 2014 - 15:04.

[HeadFirst]

No, Mercedes still has the best car.  They just have the slight problem of being run by boneheads and having a numbskull in the #6 car...

 

Right. The boneheads should support one driver, the one currently leading the WDC, and if the numbskull in #44 doesn't know he is part of a team and learn to follow team orders they should send him off to look for his happy bubble.

[Thomas99]

Ricciardo's pace was actually very similar to Rosberg when they were running 1st and second until Rosberg pitted a second time. 

 

It will be very interesting on the aero tracks

[HoldenRT]

No, but they are slowly getting closer and a shock to see it on a track like this.

 

Mercedes managed today's race thinking they had the same advantage as in earlier races (and it seemed like it'd be the same based off of quali).. but when you don't have a dominant pace, you actually need good strategy.

 

It's two races in a row, where Mercedes haven't been as dominant in the race pace as expected.  It's hard to pinpoint though because of other factors like rain, SC's, and bad strategies and traffic.  And incidents etc.

 

The gap is definitely closing though.

[TheUltimateWorrier]

Right. The boneheads should support one driver, the one currently leading the WDC, and if the numbskull in #44 doesn't know he is part of a team and learn to follow team orders they should send him off to look for his happy bubble.

 

Now you're just trolling! Absolutely at the bolded part, that's why they're boneheads.  And no, #44 isn't a numbskull, that's #6.  #44 is old muggins who's always gonna get mugged by the numbskull (#6),  Academic term hasn't even started yet, but you just got schooled, buddy!

[Szoelloe]

No.

[30ft penguin]

No, Vettel said on Saturday that Red Bull gambled on a dry race setup (and got it right), while Mercedes put on more downforce (you could see the difference on the straights). Also, Mercedes had a terrible race with both drivers losing time due to the Nico/Lewis incident. Without that incident, the race probably would have finished with another 1-2 Mercedes result.

[goingthedistance]

They are still far behind, but they are closer I think.

 

The change in gear ratios is interesting - I wonder if they've been a little too long all season. Also if they put their weight behind Dan who seems better able to cope with less wing, I think they'll continue to close up. Vettel is struggling for grip, he clearly needs more wing not less. 

[Shambolic]

Red Bull won in Hungary and today on a low downforce track in Spa they were extremely competitive. Even if you discount the time incurred by Nico in changing his wing, it still would have been very close between Ricciardo and Rosberg.

 

Rosberg lost time due to the wing, then flat spotted his nearly new tyres, forcing another stop (which then meant a fairly late stop dropping him right back). On pace, Red Bull are still some way off, but as Mercedes not so quietly internally combust Red Bull are managing to circle ready to swoop in and take advantage.

 

It's hard to believe Mercedes can be quite so.. Well, shambolic, really. I know the old BAR/ Honda team was often a mess but this is a blank chequebook superteam. That somehow can't work out quality control, dial back a tenth of their second plus advantage to protect fragile parts, and has now got an obvious driver rift spiralling out of control.

 

Red Bull have got everything in place to win other than the car, whereas it's looking almost the polar opposite for the dull grey arrows.

[ardbeg]

Ricciardo was strong today, Rosberg was weak.

[Jamiednm]

No, Mercedes have a monster that isn't being fully exploited at the moment. Red Bull have improved, but they are still miles behind.

[HoldenRT]

In race pace, I don't think they are miles behind.  If you consider that this is a circuit that rewards straight line speed, and that Redbull were strong on the straights, yet could still manage tyres well (with Ricciardo).  He did his best lap on the final lap of the race.

 

In raw one lap speed, they won't match Merc all season, but in race pace (when all cars are bottlenecked by the tyres) they seem pretty close.  Probably not close enough to win on pure pace alone, but close enough to hang in there and be in the hunt.  Monza will be tough but Singapore afterwards will be interesting.  If you could say that there would be this result, after the winter testing you'd have never believed it.  Hungary you could say that it was due to the nature of the track, but Spa was a Merc track.  The problem is, there hasn't been a good straight fight between Nico and Lewis without problems.  Nico's race pace has seemed a bit off.  And Lewis didn't seem that quick either at the start before his hit (hence, Nico attacking him).  If they have a clean race with no traffic, they'll probably be dominant, but when things don't go well.. they are a lot more vulnerable now, than they were in the first 8 or so races of the season.

[George Costanza]

I don't think so. It is like 1991 with Senna and McLaren when they had the best car which they were caught by Wiliams toward the end of season. Only difference is.... There is no #1 or #2 driver at Mercedes.

 

I think Mercedes still is the better car, however.

[HoldenRT]

Engines weren't frozen back then though.  That's why Spa was such a shock (for me).  All of this is with an engine advantage that is 'locked in' until the end of the year.  Imagine the uproar of the last 4 years, if Redbull had an aero advantage and aero was frozen.

[George Costanza]

Engines weren't frozen back then though.  That's why Spa was such a shock (for me).  All of this is with an engine advantage that is 'locked in' until the end of the year.  Imagine the uproar of the last 4 years, if Redbull had an aero advantage and aero was frozen.

True. Very true. RBR has the best aero, I think. They would be very scary if that the Merc engine.

[jstrains]

RBR used the allowed gear ratio modification

[DrF]

2009 all over again?

[pingu666]

merc have rarely used 7th gear before this race, did they use it this race?

 

and rb as a team execute the best by far in f1, thats there biggest advantage

[George Costanza]

2009 all over again?

 

1991, 1998, 2006, 2009 are decent examples of the 2nd place team catching up to the first place team

[Tommay]

You have to remember Rosberg isn't very well know for his wheel to wheel battling, else his car is over a second and a half to two seconds quicker he rarely makes the overtakes. You only have to look at the past few seasons to see this. Hamilton would be dismissed of the cars in quick fashion then used the dominance of the Mercedes to regain the 6 seconds lost from the front wing change

[payinkind]

I don't think so. I think Red Bull merely hit upon an aero configuration that worked well here at Spa. In the dry.

And both Mercedes drivers had bad races.

 

Well, one driver had a horrible race that directly ruined his teammate's.

[joshb]

Red Bull just have better drivers making it look closer than it really is

[SamH123]

Rosberg maybe would have won without that big lock up that forced him into a 3 stop rather than a 2 stop...

 

But yeah Ricciardo is going to keep Mercedes a bit nervous, would be super embarrassing for them if Ricciardo won the championship

Seems like RB have definitely improved because Williams were way better at Austria (another 70%+ throttle track), it looked very close here

[ensign14]

They've not caught Mercedes.  They've caught Rosberg though. 

[HP]

No, Vettel said on Saturday that Red Bull gambled on a dry race setup (and got it right), while Mercedes put on more downforce (you could see the difference on the straights). Also, Mercedes had a terrible race with both drivers losing time due to the Nico/Lewis incident. Without that incident, the race probably would have finished with another 1-2 Mercedes result.

Yup, and that's why in the end the entire weekend has shown that the real problem at Mercedes is not necessarily either or both drivers. Red Bull operates from a position that they can't lose anything. Hence taking risks. Mercedes team management appears to try to manage the unmanageable while playing it safe. Sure Mercedes has the advantage car wise, but being too conservative and a get together of their drivers exposed the weakness of their strategy. And it will be that way until the management wises up. IMO if Mercedes loses either championship, IMO it's for lack of a clear line of command. I'm not saying they need team orders, but leading a F1 team is no exercise in democrazy (spelled the word purposely wrong)

 

So much has been written already about the incident in Spa. I think it needs to be viewed in connection with the situation with the previous race. Hamilton was told to let Rosberg pass, but Hamilton didn't, and the management response was IMO to wiggle themselves out of it with needing better approach. And now people are getting upset when Rosberg tries to show some backbone and shows that he cannot be messed with. And the management again talks about needing to change their approach towards their driver. Yikes. make things even more muddier. I as a driver would use this to play the management to my end.

 

If Red Bull wins either championship this year, then I'd think Mercedes team management blew it royally.

[travbrad]

Rosberg damaged his wing for the first stint, lost time in the pits, got stuck behind some cars, then locked up badly and ruined his next set of tyres as well.  Ricciardo drove well and won.  It has nothing to do with Red Bull catching Mercedes.  Their low-downforce wing did help them to be more competitive than they otherwise would have been at Spa, but there is still a big gap to Mercedes.

Edited by travbrad, 25 August 2014 - 03:21.

[Knot]

DR has more points in the last 6 races than either MB driver through equal parts luck and skill. MB need to quit acting like children right now, or they could be looking at one hell of an epic upset. I had a strong notion that MB would start to falter once Brawn's influence over the team faded...and that's happening now. RB and DR won't have a chance if everyone at MB stop throwing their toys out of the pram at the drop of a hat. That means Wolff, Lauda, Hamilton, and Rosberg.

[Wingcommander]

No, RB haven't caught MB and I doubt they will during this season. Actually for me one of the disappointing aspects of this season has been RB's and Ferrari's (if anyone expected them to know how develop the car) inability to catch MB. It seems like the gap has been the same all season.

[Atreiu]

No. It's just Rosberg not being able to win races unless they are thrown wide open before him. And Hamilton was a non factor as soon as he was hit.

[KiloWatt]

Not a chance. Mercedes would have easily won Canada if their cars held up. Rosberg would have easily won Hungary if werent for the safety car. And they would have comfortably won Spa as well if it werent for, you know...

My point being the entire chasing pack still has a long way to go on pace (reliability is a different matter, but I interpret the OP as referring to pure pace).

I.e., had the races occured without external factors they would have won every single race this season.

[Petroltorque]

Red Bull winning around Spa was a monster result. It's as though it has finally got through to Newey that absolute downforce is not king. There is so much inherent downforce in the Red Bull it's better to cut drag and improve straight line speed.
Previusly when you were energising the diffuser you could get away with being the slowest in a straight line, not any more.
There probably still a power deficit between Mercedes and Renault. Mercedes are reputed to be around 800bhp while the optimised output from the Renault is around 760bhp.

[MTC]

No, just Merc, from the team to drivers, seem very good at shooting themselves in the foot in true McLaren fashion right now.  Cut out the idiocy and shenannigans they're still miles ahead.

[Jamiednm]

In a clean race, RIC may be able to stay within 10 seconds of ROS, but HAM will be another 20+ seconds ahead - on any track.

[lbennie]

No, RB haven't caught MB and I doubt they will during this season. Actually for me one of the disappointing aspects of this season has been RB's and Ferrari's (if anyone expected them to know how develop the car) inability to catch MB. It seems like the gap has been the same all season.

 

Fair go, when that gap is gained from a frozen regulation its pretty hard to bridge.

Edited by lbennie, 25 August 2014 - 06:12.

[travbrad]

Fair go, when that gap is gained from a frozen regulation its pretty hard to bridge.

 

Yep.  Red Bull has a great car with a weak engine, and Renault isn't allowed to make performance improvements except for "reliability reasons".

 

Ferrari could improve their car some since it looks worse than the Red Bulls and Mercedes in corners, but again a large part of their problem also lies with their frozen engine.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

We'll see in Monza.

If we see a 2011 Red Bull performance when Vettel won - slow on straights and mighty through corners - then Red Bull are back.

[v@sh]

No, Merc should be winning every race 1-2, that's how big of a pace advantage they have.

 

They are still easily half a second quicker in outright pace and up to 2 seconds on race pace, DR's win's have been a combination of poor driving and reliability on Merc's part coupled with DR's speed, skill, racecraft and grabbing the opportunities when they are available.

Edited by v@sh, 25 August 2014 - 08:52.