87 replies to this topic

[ardbeg]

5 seconds added time for having the car on the jacks when the the others leave for the warmup lap. It was dangerous and they kept working on the car in traffic. I was certain there would have been a stop & go or at least a DT, but instead he got 5s extra stop time during a regular pit stop. It also took the stewards almost half an hour to come up with that decision.

 

There was a similar incident a while ago, but my memories of it are not detailed enough to remember who was standing on the jacks and where it was. Neither do I remember the penalty so I have not much to Google. Anyone that has a better memory?

 

EDIT: Nonesuch found the paragraph:

 

 

38.5 When the one minute signal is shown, engines should be started and all team personnel must leave the grid by the time the 15 second signal is given taking all equipment with them. If any driver needs assistance after the 15 second signal he must raise his arm and, when the remainder of the cars able to do so have left the grid, marshals will be instructed to push the car into the pit lane. In this case, marshals with yellow flags will stand beside any car (or cars) concerned to warn drivers behind.

Edited by ardbeg, 24 August 2014 - 16:26.

[garoidb]

I have vague memories of Ralf Schumacher in a Williams up on jacks at (I think) Spa. Not sure what penalty was handed out.

 

It is irrelevant given what happened afterwards, but I thought Lewis Hamilton might have had trouble for reversing into his grid slot. 

[InSearchOfThe]

No just right option?

 

It's the rule.

It's the same for everybody.

 

Great come back from FA though.

[ardbeg]

No just right option?

 

It's the rule.

It's the same for everybody.

 

Great come back from FA though.

You're right, added it. Can you link us to the rule? Why did it take 30 minutes for the stewards to find it if it is so clear cut? Had Ferrari know earlier they might have chosen a different strategy.

[midgrid]

I have vague memories of Ralf Schumacher in a Williams up on jacks at (I think) Spa. Not sure what penalty was handed out.

There was no penalty because Ralf's mechanics left the grid before the requisite time. They chose to have him start from the back of the grid instead of taking a penalty (this was when the penalty for such an offence was more severe).

[HoldenRT]

Unfortunately I was late into getting to watching the race and missed it!  Will have to watch it on replay.  One of those weird bad luck things I guess.

[Exb]

Glock - China 2010? Ended up having to start from pit-lane (which Fernando would have done had the mechanics not gone back onto grid)

[InSearchOfThe]

You're right, added it. Can you link us to the rule? Why did it take 30 minutes for the stewards to find it if it is so clear cut? Had Ferrari know earlier they might have chosen a different strategy.

Sorry I can't link the rule. I can barely tie my shoes!

 

It did feel like a long wait. I thought Ferrari were going to get away with it (rule manipulation)....again

[Gyno]

5 seconds added time for having the car on the jacks when the the others leave for the warmup lap. It was dangerous and they kept working on the car in traffic. I was certain there would have been a stop & go or at least a DT, but instead he got 5s extra stop time during a regular pit stop. It also took the stewards almost half an hour to come up with that decision.

 

There was a similar incident a while ago, but my memories of it are not detailed enough to remember who was standing on the jacks and where it was. Neither do I remember the penalty so I have not much to Google. Anyone that has a better memory?

 

 

No it didn't.

They came up with the decision 8 minutes after it happened.

It was Broadcast almost half an hour later.

[MotorsportFerrari]

Most of you are furios when a driver gets a penalty after unsafe relase arguing that it is down to the team.

Alonso's case is the very same. There was nothing Alonso could have done about it. He was heaviliy penalized by getting stuck behind Magnussen which completely ruined his race. Without it he would have grabbed 3rd place.

[Nonesuch]

It was quite lenient, considering that the FIA F1 Sporting Regulations are quite clear on this (emphasis added):
 

38.5 When the one minute signal is shown, engines should be started and all team personnel must leave the grid by the time the 15 second signal is given taking all equipment with them. If any driver needs assistance after the 15 second signal he must raise his arm and, when the remainder of the cars able to do so have left the grid, marshals will be instructed to push the car into the pit lane. In this case, marshals with yellow flags will stand beside any car (or cars) concerned to warn drivers behind.

Edited by Nonesuch, 24 August 2014 - 16:22.

[scheivlak]

 It also took the stewards almost half an hour to come up with that decision.

 

 

Really? IIRC the BBC commentators told us so after a few minutes.

[scheivlak]

Most of you are furios when a driver gets a penalty after unsafe relase arguing that it is down to the team.

 

Most of us? Maybe just the most vocal.....

[rodlamas]

DC has got a DT in Canada 2000 for the same offense.

[2014wdc]

It's always funny, is'n it ?

 

Some people are worried about the danger... but yet, haven't read a thread of how Alonso could have died today, becuse of the Mad mag move ? I know Alonso should have received a 5 race ban and a 0 wdc points all year

 

As i see it, the penalty for the driver was harsh (becuase he didn't gain anything from it),and it ruined his race. The team should have been penalized more like 0 wcc, a big financial and a reprimand...but the driver did nothing wrong.

 

Mag should have been black flagged immediately, someone could have died today, and that's not for the start of the cooling lap.

Edited by 2014wdc, 24 August 2014 - 16:35.

[Myrvold]

As i see it, the penalty for the driver was harsh (becuase he didn't gain anything from it),and it rained his race. The team should have been penalized more like 0 wcc, a big financial and a reprimand...but the driver did nothing wrong.

You win as a team, you lose as a team. You get penalized as a team.

Ferrari lost WCC points, and thus money on it as well.

[2014wdc]

You win as a team, you lose as a team. You get penalized as a team.

Ferrari lost WCC points, and thus money on it as well.

 a big 0 wcc for the race would have been more harsh...just like as a team

 

the team should have been penalized not the driver, that's my take

Edited by 2014wdc, 24 August 2014 - 16:38.

[ardbeg]

It's always funny, is'n it ?

 

Some people are worried about the danger... but yet, haven't read a thread of how Alonso could have died today, becuse of the Mad mag move ? I know Alonso should have received a 5 race ban and a 0 wdc points all year

 

As i see it, the penalty for the driver was harsh (becuase he didn't gain anything from it),and it ruined his race. The team should have been penalized more like 0 wcc, a big financial and a reprimand...but the driver did nothing wrong.

 

Mag should have been black flagged immediately, someone could have died today, and that's not for the start of the cooling lap.

I tried to break your post up into three parts and then each part kind of makes logical sense, but when you put the together...

[Balnazzard]

Its in the rules, so why are we even having this discussion? Alonso was lucky that this year that new 5 seconds stop&go was added to the rules, had this happened last year, he would have gotten more severe penalty like drive-through that would have ruined his race completely.

[Imateria]

Too lenient. It's like with unsafe releases from pit boxes, it's all about the safety of team personnel so there should have been a stricter penalty. Normally I'm of the opinion that a team should be penalised for breaking the rules and not the driver if it's not the driver that broke them, however in this case Alonso got to start from his grid slot instead of at the back or from the pitlane, so I think a drive through or a 10s stop/go would be in order.

[Seanspeed]

Didnt seem like a big deal to me. :/

Was against the rules and he was penalized. People think the penalty should have been more severe?

I'm sure there's a fair segment that always want Ferrari to get the book thrown at them, I guess.

Edited by Seanspeed, 24 August 2014 - 16:55.

[Atreiu]

This 5 second penalty is bogus and should be scrapped from the book.

 

Alonso was stuck, not his fault, but he had to be penalized.

[Max!]

Too lenient. It's like with unsafe releases from pit boxes, it's all about the safety of team personnel so there should have been a stricter penalty. Normally I'm of the opinion that a team should be penalised for breaking the rules and not the driver if it's not the driver that broke them, however in this case Alonso got to start from his grid slot instead of at the back or from the pitlane, so I think a drive through or a 10s stop/go would be in order.

Agreed

[redreni]

It was a shame for the driver that there had to be a penalty at all, but the purpose of the regulation is to ensure a safe start to the formation lap. 5 seconds may be a reasonable penalty if a team fails by a second or two to clear the grid by the 15s signal, but to still be on the track when the cars actually pull away is quite dangerous, and the whole point of the penalty is to incentivise the teams to get their people off the grid even if the car still needs to be worked on. If a car hasn't been started and lowered from its jacks by the 15s signal, it should have to wait in its grid slot until the rest of the field has gone away on the formation lap and then be pushed into the pit lane. What Ferrari did was continue to work on the car on a live race track, which is rather dangerous, and the rules and penalties we have appear to incentivise that.

 

Maybe they should amend the regulations to say that if the car is worked on after the 15s signal it must start from the pit lane regardless? So if the mechanics are just a bit slow getting the blankets off and miss the 15s signal by a couple of seconds, you can start from the grid and take a 5s pitstop penalty, but if you've still got men working on the car, you might as well clear the grid and let the marshalls push the car into the pit lane, because you'll be starting from there anyway?

[Imateria]

Not sure about starting from the pit lane, but the back of the grid certainly.

[dreamer]

Didnt seem like a big deal to me. :/

Was against the rules and he was penalized. People think the penalty should have been more severe?
 

 

This is my opinion too. It was against the rules, he was penalised and it was enough I think. It wasn't his fault either.

Edited by dreamer, 24 August 2014 - 17:38.

[Slartibartfast]

The penalty was too lenient on the competitor. They didn't simply miss the 15 second warning, they continued to work on the car and then released it after the start of the formation lap. They consequently put their staff at unnecessary risk.

It seems Ferrari calculated (correctly) that the penalty for the infringement would be less damaging for their race than complying. That's not something the FIA should correct retrospectively, but they should ensure that next time the penalty for breaking the rule has greater consequence than compliance does.

 

Perhaps, while deciding to make that change, the FIA will fine themselves for allowing the formation lap to start while unauthorised personnel were on the track. The Race Director had plenty of opportunity to delay the start, and I see no excuse for not doing so.

[hdsport82]

It seems Ferrari calculated (correctly) that the penalty for the infringement would be less damaging for their race than complying. That's not something the FIA should correct retrospectively, but they should ensure that next time the penalty for breaking the rule has greater consequence than compliance does.

 

Absolutely correct. Ferrari (cynically some might say) put it's mechanics at greater risk to minimise the impact to Fernando's race. The penalty should have been sufficient to replicate a back of the grid start/pit lane start which is where he should have been.

Edited by hdsport82, 24 August 2014 - 17:50.

[garoidb]

 a big 0 wcc for the race would have been more harsh...just like as a team

 

the team should have been penalized not the driver, that's my take

 

Maybe they could have had Kimi serve the penalty, since it was not a driver related issue.

[redreni]

The penalty was too lenient on the competitor. They didn't simply miss the 15 second warning, they continued to work on the car and then released it after the start of the formation lap. They consequently put their staff at unnecessary risk.

It seems Ferrari calculated (correctly) that the penalty for the infringement would be less damaging for their race than complying. That's not something the FIA should correct retrospectively, but they should ensure that next time the penalty for breaking the rule has greater consequence than compliance does.

 

Perhaps, while deciding to make that change, the FIA will fine themselves for allowing the formation lap to start while unauthorised personnel were on the track. The Race Director had plenty of opportunity to delay the start, and I see no excuse for not doing so.

 

Mmm, I think delaying the start would have been an over-reaction, because there were marshalls with yellows at the back of Alonso's car directing those behind to pass him on the right, well clear of where the mechanics were. Delaying the start affects other peoples' races and can lead to its own problems; cooked clutches etc. The grid pulls away row-by-row, practice starts are banned, and they have to stick to the pitlane speed limit until they pass pole position, so the situation was no more dangerous than plenty that occur in the pit lane on a regular basis.

 

But I agree 100% that, if you haven't finished working on the car by just before the 15s signal and you comply with the regulations by clearing the grid, you will have to start from the pitlane, which is why I suggested that not clearing the grid and then continuing to work on the car should carry the penalty of starting from the pit lane (plus maybe an additional penalty where needed) so that you can't benefit from breaking the rules.

[Spillage]

Too lenient for me. It's quite a serious rule violation and although it wasn't Alonso's fault I agree with Brundle in that the car/driver combination cannot be separated. I think a drive-through would have been more appropriate.

[bourbon]

Too lenient.  Mags got a 20 second penalty for not leaving enough space.  This gets 5 secs  

[VolvoT5]

Far too lenient, especially in light of the penalty Mag got after the race.   Alonso should have got a drive through or 10 second stop go in my opinion. 

[Seanspeed]

Mags got a 20 second penalty for not leaving enough space.

For driving a competitor off-track at 200mph, more accurately. Totally minor offense, I agree.

Edited by Seanspeed, 24 August 2014 - 18:35.

[swerved]

Too lenient.  Mags got a 20 second penalty for not leaving enough space.  This gets 5 secs

 

That's probably as much because Alonso was acting the pussy and gesticulating at Mags, and probably crying on the radio about "all the time you have to leave a space" prior to Mags actually doing anything wrong.

 

Alonso's penalty was exceedingly lenient given Reg 38.5, but then he was probably crying about that also.

[as65p]

That's probably as much because Alonso was acting the pussy and gesticulating at Mags, and probably crying on the radio about "all the time you have to leave a space" prior to Mags actually doing anything wrong.

 

Alonso's penalty was exceedingly lenient given Reg 38.5, but then he was probably crying about that also.

And now you top all that crying you imagined by crying about it? Nice one...

[Seanspeed]

That's probably as much because Alonso was acting the pussy and gesticulating at Mags, and probably crying on the radio about "all the time you have to leave a space" prior to Mags actually doing anything wrong.

Wow.

I know Alonso can whine too much, but to downplay what Magnussen did over what you think Alonso 'probably' did is ridiculous. Amazing how much a driver rivalry creates some of the most bitter haters.

[Gorma]

Too lenient as they were in violation of a safety rule.

[ardbeg]

Too lenient as they were in violation of a safety rule.

A rule that actually has a stipulated penalty far more sewere than what was actually given. But I see no one in the circus complaining, so I guess it's ok.

[Kenstate]

yes, ofc it's okay. ferrari made a procedural violation. And that was the lightest penalty they could've levied during the race. It might've ruined alonso's race, but rules are rules.

[swerved]

Wow.

I know Alonso can whine too much, but to downplay what Magnussen did over what you think Alonso 'probably' did is ridiculous. Amazing how much a driver rivalry creates some of the most bitter haters.

 

When Alonso was wavinghis hand out of the cockpit Magnusson had done nothing wrong, this was prior to Mags forcing his holiness off the track, which was wrong.

 

As Brundle said during the race when Alonso was gesticulating "Alonso has nothing at all to complain about there"

 

As we've seen before though, frequently when Alonso whinges, he actually has nothing to whinge about.

[redreni]

That's probably as much because Alonso was acting the pussy and gesticulating at Mags, and probably crying on the radio about "all the time you have to leave a space" prior to Mags actually doing anything wrong.

 

Alonso's penalty was exceedingly lenient given Reg 38.5, but then he was probably crying about that also.

 

It's amazing he can see clearly enough to drive at 200mph through all the tears!

[swerved]

It's amazing he can see clearly enough to drive at 200mph through all the tears!

 

Rubbish, Rosberg can do that through a tyre carcass.

[Seanspeed]

When Alonso was wavinghis hand out of the cockpit Magnusson had done nothing wrong, this was prior to Mags forcing his holiness off the track, which was wrong.
 
As Brundle said during the race when Alonso was gesticulating "Alonso has nothing at all to complain about there"

I agree there. But that is 100% irrelevant to what is being talked about, but you made a very desperate attempt to shoe-horn it into the discussion anyways. Alonso did not have to complain for Kevin to be penalized for what he did.

Edited by Seanspeed, 24 August 2014 - 19:26.

[swerved]

I agree there. But that is 100% irrelevant to what is being talked about, but you made a very desperate attempt to shoe-horn it into the discussion anyways. Alonso did not have to complain for Kevin to be penalized for what he did.

 

You don't know that, and given that he was openly displaying his annoyance when he had nothing to complain about, its reasonable to assume that he did likewise when he did have something to complain about.

[spacekid]

Tough one. I don't like penalties in general, but having mechanics on the grid when the cars are rolling is not good, and needs to be strongly disincentivised.

I voted correct penalty, but I think I'm being led by not wanting to see Alonso get a penalty. Tough question.

[maverick69]

No.

 

Fred Mist rules in F1.

[Viktor]

As a Ferrari and Alonso fan I have to say it was way too lenient. The team was working on the car while other cars was running on the track in close proximity. Should have been a 10 second stop and go. But if the rules call for a 5 second penalty that's the correct penalty in this case but it needs to be changed for the future. Much safer to do what Williams did back in 2001(?) with Ralf to just wait until all cars have passed.

/Viktor

[ardbeg]

But if the rules call for a 5 second penalty that's the correct penalty.

/Viktor

They don't...

[mcjohnson]

You win as a team, you lose as a team. You get penalized as a team.
Ferrari lost WCC points, and thus money on it as well.

I wouldn't worry about the money lost, Alonso saved twice that in Fuel with the amount of times he was cutting corners with all four wheels off the track...