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Frentzen's sacking at Jordan


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#1 Nustang70

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 19:44

I checked the archives, but it seems we there still wasn't a conclusion answer.  In the intervening years since 2005 (the most recent thread on the subject I found) and now, has it come out what really happened?



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#2 BullHead

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 19:55

All I remember was some kind of big ego / personality clash between him and Eddie being cited as the reason for their sudden falling out and HH's quick ejection. I seem to remember they both wanted it and HH backed the idea to do a swap with Alesi.

 

Edit : So reading up on it, HH said later that it was a purely business disagreement and not personal. He thought EJ was not keeping to his side of the contract and had to immediately vacate the role to begin court proceedings...

 

Edit again: Actually that was after EJ 'fired' him, so no, the reasoning is elusive as you say.

 

!


Edited by BullHead, 30 August 2014 - 20:04.


#3 Dolph

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 20:11

As far as I remember there was big power struggle at the time on who would become Honda's number one team: Jordan or BAR. I seem to recall Honda wanting to have just one team even.

 

There was a need to make room for Sato - the Honda golden boy. But why Frentzen was sacked mid season - the same guy who brought two wins for Jordan just two season ago, I don't recall if I've heared.


Edited by Dolph, 30 August 2014 - 20:21.


#4 Dolph

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 20:16

Here you go:

 

2005: http://www.gpupdate..../f1-news/77434/

 

"At the time I couldn't let Frentzen renew the contract because my only way of holding onto the Honda engine was by giving the drive to Sato," Jordan told the Irish Sunday Independent newspaper.

 

"I loved Frentzen - he won more grands prix for Jordan than anyone else but I had to protect the engine situation," Jordan added. "I took it on the chin. Nobody except myself and one or two in Jordan realised why I had to do it. I hated being in that position - I wanted to keep Frentzen but I couldn't."

 

 

 

 

I still don't get why Frentzen had to be sacked mid season.

 

 

 

At the time Jordan justified the sacking with Frentzens results compared to Trulli:

 

2001: http://www.telegraph...-by-Jordan.html

 

Jordan: "It has been a disappointing season for both of us. We had an exchange of views after the British Grand Prix and this is the result."

 

Frentzen: "The reasons I have been given for this termination I contest in their entirety. My position in this matter is now under legal advice."



#5 Dolph

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 20:19

Seems to me Eddie just handled the Honda situation very poorly. One would assume there would have been a way to keep Frentzen until the end of the year and just sign a contract with Sato in the meanwhile. Ridiculous, especially the fact that Frentzen was let go just days before the German GP.



#6 BullHead

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 20:22

Further reading for me brings this picture:

 

HH was underperforming compared to Trulli, especially in terms of finishing positions. Members of the team apparently were concerned and EJ felt he had to warn HH. HH blamed the team for setting the cars up and developing the design towards Trulli's driving style which was at odds with his own. HH demanded changes in the direction of the car development, and this is what made EJ tell him to leave. Then came the lawyers, Zonta as a stand in, then Alesi. HH battled EJ in the courts for some time on....

 

 

As reported anyway in the official F1 2001 yearbook


Edited by BullHead, 30 August 2014 - 20:23.


#7 Pilla

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 20:23

There was also a rumor at the time that frentzen wasn't happy with the car and even took to it with a hack saw to reduce drag..

#8 BullHead

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 20:29

As far as I remember there was big power struggle at the time on who would become Honda's number one team: Jordan or BAR. I seem to recall Honda wanting to have just one team even.

 

 

 

Yeah, I remember being at a motorshow and chatting to a rep from both teams. They said then that it was a battle for full Honda works backing. At the time I thought Jordan had done enough, I was kind of surprised when it was BAR that won out.



#9 FLB

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 20:47

I'm also wondering how much effect his 1999 Canadian GP shunt had on the rest of his F1 career:

 

http://www.adac-gt-m...peration-197690



#10 Bleu

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 21:11

He continued on high level throughout the year so I don't see that crash much affecting. However he had two big crashes within two weeks of another in 2001, first at Monaco and then at Canada which forced him to miss the race.



#11 scheivlak

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 21:46

Eddie Jordan's explanation: "We've talked about it a number of times and we talked again after Silverstone," Jordan said today. "There were several things I was unhappy about and we just couldn't agree. Heinz is one of the nicest people that could ever drive a racing car, there is no doubt about that. (But) the future of the team is everything to me.

"I have to think about what will deliver the best results for our sponsors, our drivers and our staff, me included. And I have to be sure I go down the path that is going to give us the best chances of a result." http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/5091/

 

Comment from Eddie Irvine: "I think people keep forgetting where EJ (Eddie Jordan) came from and where he got to and he didn't get there by being a sucker"

"I think the Damon Hill experience burned him badly and I don't think maybe he was prepared to have the same thing happen to him twice," said Irvine, despite Jordan's earlier insistence to the contrary. "So there's probably some leftover from that. He wants results as much as anyone else does.

"Formula One is about doing the job and doing the job you get paid lots of money. If you don't then go and lie on a boat. It's that simple."  http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/5107/



#12 george1981

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 22:24

I had heard something about Frentzen's contract. I believe that after his impressive 1999 season Frentzen had managed to negotiate a contract for the 2000 and 2001 season with a further option on 2002. Unusually Frentzen had the option on 2002 not Jordan. I believe it was Frentzen's decision to exercise this option that led to him being sacked.



#13 Logiso

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 22:39

I had heard something about Frentzen's contract. I believe that after his impressive 1999 season Frentzen had managed to negotiate a contract for the 2000 and 2001 season with a further option on 2002. Unusually Frentzen had the option on 2002 not Jordan. I believe it was Frentzen's decision to exercise this option that led to him being sacked.

 

That would explain Eddie's comments and the mid-season sacking even though Sato wasn't brought in until 2002 at least.



#14 jonpollak

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 23:13

Sato .... with the bad juju.... Again. Jp

#15 Dolph

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 06:16

I had heard something about Frentzen's contract. I believe that after his impressive 1999 season Frentzen had managed to negotiate a contract for the 2000 and 2001 season with a further option on 2002. Unusually Frentzen had the option on 2002 not Jordan. I believe it was Frentzen's decision to exercise this option that led to him being sacked.

 

Ahh... so Frentzen decided to prolong to 2002 and Jordan was forced to fire him on a performance clause to prevent him from being in the team for 2002. Otherwise Frentzen could have had some good results and the performance clause could not have been brought into effect anymore. That must mean Fisichella's contract was signed and he needed room for Sato. That would explain it. Thanks.


Edited by Dolph, 31 August 2014 - 06:21.


#16 BullHead

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 09:28

So the performance and car design arguments were the official reasons, but in reality just smoke and mirrors?



#17 sopa

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 09:56

So the performance and car design arguments were the official reasons, but in reality just smoke and mirrors?

 

It seems clear there was a major personality clash/fall-out in mid-2001. But all the other "arguments" were contributing to the intensity of the situation.

 

Frentzen had a serious testing crash somewhere in 2001, which hurt his form a bit. Frentzen didn't adapt well to the TC regulation. So perhaps Jordan felt Frentzen was past his prime and wanted to get rid of him anyway. Then again HHF had a contract till the end of 2002, while Jordan also had Trulli, Fisichella and Sato vying for the seats - all of whom were more favoured to get a drive in the team than HHF for various reasons.

 

As a result HHF felt he had fallen out of favour in the team, wasn't as big authority any more as he had just been and it is often so that if a driver is on his way out, he won't get as much support any more. 

 

Zonta and Alesi weren't going to bring performance upgrades even compared to the "underperforming" Frentzen, so mid-season sacking (as opposed to end-season sacking) isn't justified by any lack of form. But due to contributing difficulties they just couldn't work together any more, while someone like Alesi would have been very happy to finish his career in a decent car like Jordan, so this co-operation - even if temporary - was going to work.

 

But still the question remains - why did they go so radical? It is worth remembering that Frentzen had just been the golden boy of Jordan, who had brought all the glory in 1999. Fast forward two years and everything was collapsing - Jordan's competitiveness had fallen, Frentzen's performances had fallen, everything was sort of falling apart in the team. This triggered the very emotional exchange perhaps - the at first lovely marriage ended in tears as the swing in fortunes had been so huge.


Edited by sopa, 31 August 2014 - 10:00.


#18 scheivlak

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 10:07

So the performance and car design arguments were the official reasons, but in reality just smoke and mirrors?

Well, there was some justification for those performance reasons. Especially his French GP performance was well below par, missing breaking points, spinning all by himself......



#19 Kristian

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 10:37

Funnily enough I'm at my parents house this weekend where I have all my piles of old F1 magazines, and I remember exactly the issue of that short-lived F1 Magazine which covered this (a Tremayne/Saward/Donaldson article):

 

I don't have time to summarise the whole thing as its a LONG article, but there is a timeline which states the key events....

 

3rd Feb 2001 - First signs of tension as Barcelona test is cut short by broken cooler hose.

1st April - Frentzen blames the team for his poor 11th place in Brazil, which begins a pattern of criticism towards the team.

29th April - HHF and EJ have a disagreement over the car's software after a disappointing race in Barcelona ends in a collsion with de la Rosa's Jaguar.

13th May - HHF retires from Austria with gearbox problems, and complains about balance and grip.

16th-19th May - Relations between HHF and team hit rock bottom, he says the aero package is all wrong and offers to pay for a new design himself.

27th May - HHF crashes out of Monaco, claiming the car turned right when he steered left.

10th June - HHF misses Montreal due to Monaco concussion, but still slates the team's performance despite not being there.

24th June - Team announces it is taking up its option on HHF for 2002, but is disappointed at his performance in Europe. He says the launch control let him down in Austria; the team say he didn't follow the correct procedure in Spain.

1st July - HHF finishes 8th from 7th on the grid in France, blaming a faulty pitstop by the team for destroying his race. Meanwhile, Alesi is falling out with Alain Prost over monies owed, and tells EJ he wants to quit the team but not without another drive lined up. EJ says possibly HHF's seat might be available. Alesi tells Prost he'll leave if he isn't paid. 

15th July - HHF finishes 7th at Silverstone from 5th on the grid, and tells journalists he had no downforce to overtake Heidfeld's Sauber. EJ and HHF have a clear-the-air meeting. and agree that HHF will miss the forthcoming Monza test. JA and AP have a massive argument overunpaid monies; JA says he will leave immediately, and AP says he can't under the terms of the contract. 

16th July - Jordan's engineers study HHF's telemetry and conclude that the data does not match HHF's criticisms of the team. Meanwhile, AP's solicitor send's JA a fax telling him he is fined for criticising the team after France. JA is very upset and tells EJ he wants to come as soon as possible. 

17th July - Zonta tests in place of HHF; the media incorrectly state that HHF simply didn't turn up for work. Jordan send multiple faxes of HHF's telemetry to his management. Meanwhile, frantic efforts take place to release JA from his contract. 

20th July - A fax is sent to HHF telling him of the immediate termination of his contract. 

24th July - JA tells EJ he cannot possibly be released before Germany. EJ invites HHF back for the German GP, but HHF refuses. 

25th July - HHF is surprised EJ hasn't announced his sacking, so he announces it on his personal website. He says he contests the reasons behind the decision. EJ then releases a statement confirming the termination, citing HHF's poor performances. 

26th July - HHF's father claims to German media that Jordan has been sabotaging his son's car, explaining the technical failures. 

27th July - Zonta takes HHF's place in Germany, amid a German media backlash. Team members are privately critical of EJ's decision. 

28th July - Italian media speculate for the first time that JA will be HHF's replacement. AP is shocked the news has come out. The NoTW reports that HHF will sue Jordan for £13m. 

29th July - Jordan has a disastrous race; JA scores a point for Prost then announces he will have big news soon. 

30th July - EJ speaks on record saying he and HHF did not have a row over the termination, but admits not everyone in the team supported his decision. 

31st July - EJ denies JA will be HHF's replacement; AP says EJ had approached him but he said JA was not free to leave. 

1st Aug - CRB says JA's contract is invalid due to Prost's failure to pay his retainer. JA free to sign for Jordan; nothing is announced yet. 

2nd Aug - JA secretly visits Jordan's HQ for seat fitting and photos. 

3rd Aug - HHF confirms to German media he was sacked by fax. 

8th Aug - Official announcements that JA will drive for Jordan and HHF will drive for Prost for remainder of season. 



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#20 chunder27

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 11:24

The elephant in the room here though is Sato and Honda

 

I never understood Japan's pathetuic policy of forcing teams to use Japanese drivers.

 

Yes Takuma was a decent driver and really, Jordan was a bit daft with the way he dealt with this, but some of the garbage Japan forced on teams was pathetic, Nakajima, Nakano, even later ones like Ide, Nakajima the son.

 

Surely, like a Mercedes or Renault you are better off having the best drivers possible?  I ahve never understood this Japanese policy of forcing a team to use a driver with no talent just so you can have our engines.

 

Obviously it was not always the case as McLaren ro Wiliams would not let is happen, but they were always there.

 

Just a differnet way f working I guess.

 

They do it still in bikes, guys liek Okada, Tamada, Abe, Ito, all had so many more chances becasue of their links to the factory.



#21 scheivlak

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 11:54

The elephant in the room here though is Sato and Honda

 

I never understood Japan's pathetuic policy of forcing teams to use Japanese drivers.

 

 

Jordan's choice for Sato had nothing to do with "forcing teams to use Japanese drivers".

 

He looked very much the most talented driver to come out of any lower Formula at that time. He didn't just win the British F3 championship. He seemed by far the best driver in the field, winning no less than 12 races and winning both the Masters in Zandvoort (with pole and FL), the F3 supporting race at the British GP and the Macao GP. 

 

If Jordan hadn't taken him, another team would.



#22 george1981

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 12:21

Jordan's choice for Sato had nothing to do with "forcing teams to use Japanese drivers".

 

He looked very much the most talented driver to come out of any lower Formula at that time. He didn't just win the British F3 championship. He seemed by far the best driver in the field, winning no less than 12 races and winning both the Masters in Zandvoort (with pole and FL), the F3 supporting race at the British GP and the Macao GP. 

 

If Jordan hadn't taken him, another team would.

 

 

I disagree, Sato's career was funded by Honda, he had only driven for Honda engined teams. When BAR dropped him, Honda formed Super Aguri to allow Sato to continue in F1. Although Sato might have had  a good reputation before he entered F1, after his first season in F1 that reputation was damaged and no team without a Honda connection would give him a drive.



#23 redreni

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 12:26

I had heard something about Frentzen's contract. I believe that after his impressive 1999 season Frentzen had managed to negotiate a contract for the 2000 and 2001 season with a further option on 2002. Unusually Frentzen had the option on 2002 not Jordan. I believe it was Frentzen's decision to exercise this option that led to him being sacked.

 

Overall F1 has a pretty good tradition of drivers seeing out contracts - there have been exceptions, of course, but it's not like football where the rarer thing is to see a contract honoured until the end without being extended or broken, with compensation having to be paid. So given that F1 teams generally expect drivers to honour their contracts, it rather begs the question why Jordan signed a binding contracts for 2002 with Frentzen and Trulli (the Frentzen one being binding on Jordan for 2002 but not on Frentzen) if he wanted to retain the flexibility to sign somebody else? Nobody forces teams to sign binding contracts with drivers years in advance, and if they choose to break a contract with their most successful ever driver in order to secure an engine and driver package in which, as it turns out, neither the engine nor the driver were much cop, they should expect to be sued.



#24 scheivlak

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 13:40

I disagree, Sato's career was funded by Honda, he had only driven for Honda engined teams. When BAR dropped him, Honda formed Super Aguri to allow Sato to continue in F1. Although Sato might have had  a good reputation before he entered F1, after his first season in F1 that reputation was damaged and no team without a Honda connection would give him a drive.

Read my post - it's about 2001 and nothing else! What happened afterwards has no relation whatsoever with what we're discussing here.

 

Have a look at just a few (!) reports from those days (with some lost F1 2005 headlines for a few stories!)

 

"Saro's double and point lead" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/14274 "Takuma Sato put in an absolutely stunning drive to make it two wins from two" "Davies was magnanimous after the race: "My car was good but Sato was in a league of his own. You've got to give it to him really." 

"Eastern express Sato goes West" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15031

"Sato takes impressive win" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15383 "Takuma Sato took an impressive, if somewhat processional victory, in front of the Formula 1 circus in the British Grand Prix non-championship Formula 3 support race, to further boost the Japanese ace's already blossoming reputation"

"Qualifying: Sato steamroller continues" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15496 "Same old story folks. The dominance of Japanese Takuma Sato remained as indestructible as his homeland's automotive machinery today at Donington Park as he whisked his Carlin Motorsport Dallara-Mugen Honda to an easy brace of pole positions"

"Sato starts as he means to go on" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15707 "Takuma Sato looked ominously strong"

"Sato dominates at Zandvoort" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15729  "Takuma Sato completely dominated Sunday's Marlboro Masters of Formula 3 at Zandvoort"

"Race 1: Sato wins" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15915 "Takuma Sato proved to be the master of atrociously wet conditions...."

"Sato strides towards the title" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/16128  "This was a terrific drive by Sato"

"Sato wins again" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/16367 "A stunning overtaking manoeuvre on the opening lap gave British Formula 3 champion Takuma Sato his 11th points paying win of the season"

 

Etc. etc. 

Nobody who followed F3 that year thought he was just some lucky Honda protegee. That year, he was the class of the field.

 

This was not a case of Honda forcing Sato on Eddie Jordan. It was Eddie Jordan trying to keep full works Honda support by signing Sato as soon as possible.


Edited by scheivlak, 31 August 2014 - 13:41.


#25 george1981

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 14:16

Read my post - it's about 2001 and nothing else! What happened afterwards has no relation whatsoever with what we're discussing here.

 

Have a look at just a few (!) reports from those days (with some lost F1 2005 headlines for a few stories!)

 

"Saro's double and point lead" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/14274 "Takuma Sato put in an absolutely stunning drive to make it two wins from two" "Davies was magnanimous after the race: "My car was good but Sato was in a league of his own. You've got to give it to him really." 

"Eastern express Sato goes West" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15031

"Sato takes impressive win" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15383 "Takuma Sato took an impressive, if somewhat processional victory, in front of the Formula 1 circus in the British Grand Prix non-championship Formula 3 support race, to further boost the Japanese ace's already blossoming reputation"

"Qualifying: Sato steamroller continues" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15496 "Same old story folks. The dominance of Japanese Takuma Sato remained as indestructible as his homeland's automotive machinery today at Donington Park as he whisked his Carlin Motorsport Dallara-Mugen Honda to an easy brace of pole positions"

"Sato starts as he means to go on" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15707 "Takuma Sato looked ominously strong"

"Sato dominates at Zandvoort" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15729  "Takuma Sato completely dominated Sunday's Marlboro Masters of Formula 3 at Zandvoort"

"Race 1: Sato wins" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15915 "Takuma Sato proved to be the master of atrociously wet conditions...."

"Sato strides towards the title" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/16128  "This was a terrific drive by Sato"

"Sato wins again" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/16367 "A stunning overtaking manoeuvre on the opening lap gave British Formula 3 champion Takuma Sato his 11th points paying win of the season"

 

Etc. etc. 

Nobody who followed F3 that year thought he was just some lucky Honda protegee. That year, he was the class of the field.

 

This was not a case of Honda forcing Sato on Eddie Jordan. It was Eddie Jordan trying to keep full works Honda support by signing Sato as soon as possible.

 

I did read your post. Despite your list of Sato's success in the 2001 F3 season I still believe he was placed in F1 due to his relationship with Honda not purely on ability.

If you look at other British F3 champions from around the turn of the millenium not all of them ended up in F1.

If you look a bit further back t0 1994 Jan Magnussen had an epic British F3 season beating the win record set by Ayrton Senna. Yet he didn't make it into F1 properly until 1997 and then that was with Stewart not a team with recent race wins like Jordan.

No one knows exactly what was said in the negotiations between Jordan, Honda and Sato. Given Honda's later efforts of bankrolling Sato's F1 career I believe that Honda may have encouraged Jordan to put Sato in the car sooner rather than later.



#26 scheivlak

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 14:48

 

No one knows exactly what was said in the negotiations between Jordan, Honda and Sato. Given Honda's later efforts of bankrolling Sato's F1 career I believe that Honda may have encouraged Jordan to put Sato in the car sooner rather than later.

Which basically confirms that you're lead by prejudice.



#27 Dolph

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 15:27

The elephant in the room here though is Sato and Honda

 

I never understood Japan's pathetuic policy of forcing teams to use Japanese drivers.

 

Yes Takuma was a decent driver and really, Jordan was a bit daft with the way he dealt with this, but some of the garbage Japan forced on teams was pathetic, Nakajima, Nakano, even later ones like Ide, Nakajima the son.

 

Surely, like a Mercedes or Renault you are better off having the best drivers possible?  I ahve never understood this Japanese policy of forcing a team to use a driver with no talent just so you can have our engines.

 

Obviously it was not always the case as McLaren ro Wiliams would not let is happen, but they were always there.

 

Just a differnet way f working I guess.

 

They do it still in bikes, guys liek Okada, Tamada, Abe, Ito, all had so many more chances becasue of their links to the factory.

 

Ahem, Nakajima jnr. you just mentioned.



#28 Dolph

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 15:32

Read my post - it's about 2001 and nothing else! What happened afterwards has no relation whatsoever with what we're discussing here.

 

Have a look at just a few (!) reports from those days (with some lost F1 2005 headlines for a few stories!)

 

"Saro's double and point lead" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/14274 "Takuma Sato put in an absolutely stunning drive to make it two wins from two" "Davies was magnanimous after the race: "My car was good but Sato was in a league of his own. You've got to give it to him really." 

"Eastern express Sato goes West" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15031

"Sato takes impressive win" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15383 "Takuma Sato took an impressive, if somewhat processional victory, in front of the Formula 1 circus in the British Grand Prix non-championship Formula 3 support race, to further boost the Japanese ace's already blossoming reputation"

"Qualifying: Sato steamroller continues" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15496 "Same old story folks. The dominance of Japanese Takuma Sato remained as indestructible as his homeland's automotive machinery today at Donington Park as he whisked his Carlin Motorsport Dallara-Mugen Honda to an easy brace of pole positions"

"Sato starts as he means to go on" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15707 "Takuma Sato looked ominously strong"

"Sato dominates at Zandvoort" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15729  "Takuma Sato completely dominated Sunday's Marlboro Masters of Formula 3 at Zandvoort"

"Race 1: Sato wins" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/15915 "Takuma Sato proved to be the master of atrociously wet conditions...."

"Sato strides towards the title" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/16128  "This was a terrific drive by Sato"

"Sato wins again" http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/16367 "A stunning overtaking manoeuvre on the opening lap gave British Formula 3 champion Takuma Sato his 11th points paying win of the season"

 

Etc. etc. 

Nobody who followed F3 that year thought he was just some lucky Honda protegee. That year, he was the class of the field.

 

This was not a case of Honda forcing Sato on Eddie Jordan. It was Eddie Jordan trying to keep full works Honda support by signing Sato as soon as possible.

 

So but why did Eddie then state that :

 

"At the time I couldn't let Frentzen renew the contract because my only way of holding onto the Honda engine was by giving the drive to Sato," Jordan told the Irish Sunday Independent newspaper.

 

"I loved Frentzen - he won more grands prix for Jordan than anyone else but I had to protect the engine situation," Jordan added. "I took it on the chin. Nobody except myself and one or two in Jordan realised why I had to do it. I hated being in that position - I wanted to keep Frentzen but I couldn't."

 

 

From Eddies own words we can see that Frentzen had to fired based on performance clauses or otherwise they couldn't sign Sato.



#29 Logiso

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 15:41

The elephant in the room here though is Sato and Honda

 

I never understood Japan's pathetuic policy of forcing teams to use Japanese drivers.

 

Yes Takuma was a decent driver and really, Jordan was a bit daft with the way he dealt with this, but some of the garbage Japan forced on teams was pathetic, Nakajima, Nakano, even later ones like Ide, Nakajima the son.

 

Surely, like a Mercedes or Renault you are better off having the best drivers possible?  I ahve never understood this Japanese policy of forcing a team to use a driver with no talent just so you can have our engines.

 

Obviously it was not always the case as McLaren ro Wiliams would not let is happen, but they were always there.

 

Just a differnet way f working I guess.

 

They do it still in bikes, guys liek Okada, Tamada, Abe, Ito, all had so many more chances becasue of their links to the factory.

 

 

Honda usually followed certain drivers even during the McLaren and Williams days. i.e When Senna joined McLaren in 88, it was a choice between him and Piquet who were both driving for Honda powered teams at the time. Piquet then took his place at Lotus(the other Honda powered team as Williams lost it's Honda engine). I'm not really sure why it seems to be the case with them more than any other, but it is undeniable.



#30 Myrvold

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 15:54

Ahem, Nakajima jnr. you just mentioned.

 
And snr.



#31 ensign14

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 15:58

However one looks at it, doing it just before the German GP when the title sponsor was a German company was perhaps the moment that killed off Jordan.  They never got back even to alsorandom until they'd gone through three sales.



#32 george1981

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 16:20

Which basically confirms that you're lead by prejudice.

No it confirms that we have difference of opinion.

I thought that Sato did not have the skill set to be in F1 after watching his first F1 season in 2002. As history has shown winning an F3 championship does not guarantee an F1 seat let alone a successful F1 career. It is no secret that Honda were supportive of Sato before, during and after his F1 career. I believe that the desire by Jordan to put Sato in the car to please Honda played a part in Frentzen losing his seat.



#33 chunder27

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 17:48

George

 

This guy really needs to make his point

 

Just let him have it

 

Anyone throwing words like prejudice around is best left alone.



#34 Talisman

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 17:50

No it confirms that we have difference of opinion.

I thought that Sato did not have the skill set to be in F1 after watching his first F1 season in 2002. As history has shown winning an F3 championship does not guarantee an F1 seat let alone a successful F1 career. It is no secret that Honda were supportive of Sato before, during and after his F1 career. I believe that the desire by Jordan to put Sato in the car to please Honda played a part in Frentzen losing his seat.

Your opinion of Sato's 2002 performance is irrelevant.  EJ did not have this information to hand when he made his decision to hire him in late 2001.  However Sato's 2001 F3 performance was extraordinary in the then strongest European based F3 championship and frankly was enough to get him signed up by an F1 team.

 

You also overstate Honda's level of support for Sato's pre-F1 career.  My father was peripherally involved in his early British career and Honda were nowhere to be seen.  Sato had himself rejected Honda support by winning a Japanese domestic scholarship seat with them, refusing to take it and insisting on a cash payout which he used to fund his move to the UK.  He was on his own.  Nor did Honda start Aguri F1 for him, a political move to increase their votes in the manufacturer's struggle against the FIA and FOM which is also why Red Bull initially (despite the training up new drivers nonsense they came out with) really bought Minardi/STR.  Sato is not a driver who penetrated Japanese mainstream consciousness and the rubbish propagated about near-riots when he was sacked from BAR simply reflect the extremely poor quality of reporting in the West about Japanese F1 matters.  The only two drivers Honda REALLY cared about, whether Mr Honda himself or Kawamoto after him, are Surtees and Senna.  Sato is nowhere on the list, nor is Button whatever the British press may claim.

 

As for EJ's decision to take Sato I don't think there was a formal agreement between Honda and Jordan that their support was dependent on his presence in the team.  While EJ may claim otherwise Honda wanted to work with his team because they had serious concerns about the quality of the BAR team (which was entirely understandable) and wanted a benchmark team to work with.  Jordan were the only one available that didn't have a works engine deal already and at the time of the contract signing were still a team capable of regular serious points finishes.  Honda dropped Jordan later that year not because of Sato but because they insisted that the team they put works support behind would accept Honda's technical involvement in non-engine areas (something BAR wanted but Jordan refused), would have an option for a Honda buyout in the future (something BAR wanted but Jordan was less keen on) and because of concerns about some of Jordan's business practices (again born out by what he did with Honda's engine contract severance payout when they cut the contract short).

IMO EJ signed Sato because he was hoping that he would bring in sponsorship interest from Japan and probably was able to negotiate something favourable with Honda for having taken him on.  The sponsorship interest did not materialise (except for one or two single race deals), Sato did not cover himself in glory except at Suzuka, Honda dumped Jordan and Sato was out.



#35 kamikaze1

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 18:01

I was a huge Jordan fan being Irish.  Frentzen got sacked because he was unhappy with the car.  Frentzen had a chance with the world championship in 1999 but the Nurburgring race screwed him.  I remember him coming out of the pits, maintaining his lead, and the driveshaft went (or something similar).  

 

The year he got fired, Frentzen was seriously unhappy with the car.  So much so, that some mechanics relayed the story to either Murray/Martin/James Allen, that at GP weekends, Frentzen was pulling parts off the car and putting a saw to them himself, as he disagreed with what the wind tunnel data was showing about the new parts.  According to the workers at the Jordan factory, Frentzen was so incensed by the car and how wrong the design, he was even offering Eddie his own money to finance improvements/changes of the car.  Jordan were seriously struggling at this time (vis a vis the who will be the works Honda team).  I believe Frenzten did so much criticism of the team that Eddie got fed up. All this is what was told on the pre-race shows on ITV at the time.

 

IIRC, Frentzen afterwards had to take Eddie to court to get the rest of his salary.   Such a shame that it ended this way.   And wow, was the hatred displayed to Eddie Jordan the following race at Hockenheim.  Lucky the guy got away from the track alive.  I'm sure that full race video is available somewhere.  


Edited by kamikaze1, 31 August 2014 - 18:03.


#36 YoungGun

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 18:21

Sato .... with the bad juju.... Again.

Peter Sauber ....  :smoking:



#37 BullHead

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 18:23

However one looks at it, doing it just before the German GP when the title sponsor was a German company was perhaps the moment that killed off Jordan. They never got back even to alsorandom until they'd gone through three sales.


Super bad timing. Eddie was an astute businessman, he simply must have been in a corner and no choice. But, to put it off for a month? Surely that wasn't impossible. Hence there must have been some emotional / ego moment, though all parties deny such

#38 wj_gibson

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 14:44

I still recall reading a story that cropped up on the f1i.com website about a month before HHF was sacked indicating that Frentzen wa sabout to announce an immediate, mid-season retirement. I always wondered where that came from and whether it was in any way connected to what later unfolded. It seems a strange thing for what was a reasonably credible F1 website at the time to make up out of thin air.



#39 Jimisgod

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 15:42

However one looks at it, doing it just before the German GP when the title sponsor was a German company was perhaps the moment that killed off Jordan. They never got back even to alsorandom until they'd gone through three sales.


I think what killed the Honda connection was JV looking better in 2001 than either Jordan driver. Two podiums for BAR probably pushed Eddie to go all out to get Sato and gain favor.

Both Jordan and BAR were quite close in 2002, so maybe the results of 2001 factored into the decision of removing free engines from Jordan.

Jordan kind of got squeezed between the two favored teams of Honda and Ford - BAR and Jaguar - and were doomed. But that win in 2003 has to be the most unlikely result ever. Not even Jaguar (Ford) or Toyota managed a single win even on the strange days.

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#40 scheivlak

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 22:43

I was a huge Jordan fan being Irish.  Frentzen got sacked because he was unhappy with the car.  Frentzen had a chance with the world championship in 1999 but the Nurburgring race screwed him.  I remember him coming out of the pits, maintaining his lead, and the driveshaft went (or something similar).  

 

  

It was certainly not a driveshaft failure. HHF: "As I came out I seemed to have an electrical problem. We are not sure what it was and we need to analyse it" http://archive.atlas...99/sep/1651.htm 

What it really was remains something like one of the greatest mysteries of all of all time  :D as the team was so vague about it - while you could say that it was quite a defining moment in the twists and turns of the WDC that year.

A few months later Max Mosley suggested that "one of the midfield teams" was so competitive suddenly in 1999 because of the use of some smart kind of traction control. Understandably the outside world immediately suspected either Stewart or Jordan, and somehow the fact that both Damon Hill and HHF had the same totally mysterious problem (sudden complete loss of power related to electronics) in the same race at the same place either immediately after the start or immediately after a fuel pitstop was a reason for some people to point the finger at Jordan (I'm not an expert in this, it's just something I remember from those days).



#41 Juan Kerr

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 22:54

Jordan's choice for Sato had nothing to do with "forcing teams to use Japanese drivers".

 

He looked very much the most talented driver to come out of any lower Formula at that time. He didn't just win the British F3 championship. He seemed by far the best driver in the field, winning no less than 12 races and winning both the Masters in Zandvoort (with pole and FL), the F3 supporting race at the British GP and the Macao GP. 

 

If Jordan hadn't taken him, another team would.

...but he did it because of Honda



#42 scheivlak

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 22:57

Super bad timing. Eddie was an astute businessman, he simply must have been in a corner and no choice. But, to put it off for a month? Surely that wasn't impossible. Hence there must have been some emotional / ego moment, though all parties deny such

Sometimes smart businessmen are their own worst enemy by trying to be too smart for their own good and losing the overall picture and the long term view. Eddie Jordan is a prime example of this - remember the Vodafone disaster?



#43 scheivlak

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 22:59

...but he did it because of Honda

or more precisely (as Talisman shows) his wishful perception of Honda.



#44 scheivlak

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Posted 01 September 2014 - 23:21

I think what killed the Honda connection was JV looking better in 2001 than either Jordan driver. Two podiums for BAR probably pushed Eddie to go all out to get Sato and gain favor.

 

JV lucked into two podiums in 2001 - have a look at who retired/had serious problems in both Spain and Hockenheim! His overall performance that year was not very convincing - and I'm pretty mild   ;)

 

In a 2001 poll at the end of the season http://atlasf1.autos...ct24/top10.html both Trulli (leaving Jordan driver) and Fisichella (coming Jordan driver) are rated above JV. This column http://atlasf1.autos...v14/horton.html says enough, and is quite friendly compared to the opinion of the Dutch TV commentators who either fumed or laughed about Jacques most of the time that year.

Far more important to Honda, I guess, was that - far more than Jordan - BAR gave the impression of really wanting to achieve something in a methodical way with a sound financial and organisational structure.  


Edited by scheivlak, 01 September 2014 - 23:21.


#45 CoolBreeze

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 03:25

I really think HHF was the most underrated driver at that point of time. EJ handled the situation very very badly. 



#46 wj_gibson

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 06:41

I don't recall Mosley specifying that the team suspected of having a form of traction control in 1999 was a "midfield" team - just a team full stop. Jordan had been the leading midfield team for years prior to 1999, with only the dip in the first half of '98 (with the biggest aero changes in 15 years) interrupting that. And let's be honest about it, if Ferrari and McLaren hadn't conspired to do everything between themselves to lose both titles, HHF would never have been in contention for the title.

#47 scheivlak

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 08:49

I don't recall Mosley specifying that the team suspected of having a form of traction control in 1999 was a "midfield" team - just a team full stop. Jordan had been the leading midfield team for years prior to 1999, with only the dip in the first half of '98 (with the biggest aero changes in 15 years) interrupting that. And let's be honest about it, if Ferrari and McLaren hadn't conspired to do everything between themselves to lose both titles, HHF would never have been in contention for the title.

When interrogated further by ITV about his remarks Max said it was a midfield team.



#48 kamikaze1

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:25

It was certainly not a driveshaft failure. HHF: "As I came out I seemed to have an electrical problem. We are not sure what it was and we need to analyse it" http://archive.atlas...99/sep/1651.htm 

 

 

I'm not even going to bother clicking the link as I'll take your word for it.  It was pre-internet days for the majority (who didn't use it for surfing F1 sites:D ), so what we were told by the commentators is what we believed.  Brundle and Allen said it at the race after it happened http://www.youtube.c...h?v=dfaxn66Iwm8.  To be honest, it doesn't matter whatever it was that went, but it cost him that victory.  And it was one of the greatest races I've seen, anyone leading didn't seem to be able to win :D


Edited by kamikaze1, 02 September 2014 - 11:31.


#49 Kristian

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:45

I'm not even going to bother clicking the link as I'll take your word for it.  It was pre-internet days for the majority (who didn't use it for surfing F1 sites:D ), so what we were told by the commentators is what we believed.  Brundle and Allen said it at the race after it happened http://www.youtube.c...h?v=dfaxn66Iwm8.  To be honest, it doesn't matter whatever it was that went, but it cost him that victory.  And it was one of the greatest races I've seen, anyone leading didn't seem to be able to win :D

 

I was there! A great race to pick for my first GP. 

 

I've heard lots of rumours about TC failure, but I'm inclined to believe it was innocent - i just don't think Jordan would go down that route. 



#50 wrcva

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 13:10

Corinna surely picked the right guy to marry...