Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Frentzen's sacking at Jordan


  • Please log in to reply
73 replies to this topic

#51 Dolph

Dolph
  • Member

  • 12,109 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 02 September 2014 - 15:43

 
And snr.

 

McLaren nor Williams hired Snr, but Williams did hire Jnr.
 



Advertisement

#52 Dolph

Dolph
  • Member

  • 12,109 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 02 September 2014 - 15:45

Corinna surely picked the right guy to marry...

 

Maybe its just sometimes better not to post? :rolleyes:



#53 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 4,529 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 02 September 2014 - 16:18

I don't recall Mosley specifying that the team suspected of having a form of traction control in 1999 was a "midfield" team - just a team full stop. Jordan had been the leading midfield team for years prior to 1999, with only the dip in the first half of '98 (with the biggest aero changes in 15 years) interrupting that. And let's be honest about it, if Ferrari and McLaren hadn't conspired to do everything between themselves to lose both titles, HHF would never have been in contention for the title.

Agreed....

 



#54 kamikaze1

kamikaze1
  • Member

  • 1,000 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 02 September 2014 - 16:19

I was there! A great race to pick for my first GP. 

 

 

 

 

Very very very lucky to be at that one!.  What a race.  It goes down as my favourite race to have watched live on TV, second being Spa 98.  I do miss the races of the late 90's, 12-lap quali, unpredictable races.  It was great to see Rubens, Trulli, and Herbert on the Podium that day.  It feels strange to reminisce, "I saw Herbert win a race".    It was a heartbreaking moment seeing Frentzen retire.  It was also embarrassing to watch Irvine and Hakkinen battle for 6th position!.  Only for Irvine going wide at the Veedolf (no clue how it is spelt) chicane, he might have gotten those points he needed for the 99 WDC.  (Not that I wanted him winning it of course).  



#55 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,188 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 02 September 2014 - 23:08

Going from memory but I believe Mike Gascoyne was interviewed a while back in F1 Racing magazine and he confessed to the fact the Jordan had some kind of traction control/launch code on the car that year - I recall many times they struggled off the line early in the season.

The Nurburgring story was something like HHF forgot to reset the system as he came out of the pitlane and stalled it a la Mansell in Canada in 91. From my recollection of the story, Charlie Whiting cottoned onto it and gave Jordan a "dump it or we'll dump you" ultimatum.

I'll have to try & search for the story but the idea Jordan were NOT up to anything that season is pretty much proven to be inaccurate afaic.

#56 Kristian

Kristian
  • Member

  • 4,365 posts
  • Joined: June 05

Posted 03 September 2014 - 07:13

Very very very lucky to be at that one!.  What a race.  It goes down as my favourite race to have watched live on TV, second being Spa 98.  I do miss the races of the late 90's, 12-lap quali, unpredictable races.  It was great to see Rubens, Trulli, and Herbert on the Podium that day.  It feels strange to reminisce, "I saw Herbert win a race".    It was a heartbreaking moment seeing Frentzen retire.  It was also embarrassing to watch Irvine and Hakkinen battle for 6th position!.  Only for Irvine going wide at the Veedolf (no clue how it is spelt) chicane, he might have gotten those points he needed for the 99 WDC.  (Not that I wanted him winning it of course).  

 

Though ironically I really had no idea what was going on - these were the days before there was a TV at every grandstand, and of course you couldn't hear the track commentary, so I just saw the cars come past with different leaders each time it seemed! It was all rather confusing. Luckily I bumped into Grim Jim and Tony Jardine in the car park afterwards who gave me a rundown of the events. 



#57 kamikaze1

kamikaze1
  • Member

  • 1,000 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 03 September 2014 - 11:24

I'll have to try & search for the story but the idea Jordan were NOT up to anything that season is pretty much proven to be inaccurate afaic.

 

 

I'd love to see the story.  In the last 15 years, I have heard not one thing about Jordan apparently using TC during that period :/  In all the years surfing the forums etc, not one thing.  Would be great reading if it was true :D

 

I know of this article, where HHF accuses Ferrari of using it though http://www.newsonf1....c027/submit.htm   Seems a bit hypocritical if so! :D

 

Maybe this thread contains that info  http://forums.autosp...h-team-cheated/   ... just started reading, but to me it sounds like the illegal TC was on the Ferrari car, which might explain the drop in performance in the second half of 1999.  


Edited by kamikaze1, 03 September 2014 - 11:29.


#58 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 16,465 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 03 September 2014 - 11:56

I

Maybe this thread contains that info  http://forums.autosp...h-team-cheated/   ... just started reading, but to me it sounds like the illegal TC was on the Ferrari car, which might explain the drop in performance in the second half of 1999.  

This is another, rather chaotic :D, thread from those days starting with the assumption that Ferrari was the supposed team running TC. In several posts references are made to the ITV interview with Max where he - when further pressed - said that it was "a midfield team" http://forums.autosp...nts-on-ferrari/



#59 wj_gibson

wj_gibson
  • Member

  • 3,919 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:12

Remember the first four races of 2001, when Ferrari were thought to be running a pseudo-traction control system (as Frentzen himself noted when following a rapidly misfiring Barrichello out of Turn 2 at Melbourne)? I do wonder if that was effectively being trialled by Sauber in '99 and that this is what Mosley was on about.



Advertisement

#60 redreni

redreni
  • Member

  • 4,709 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:13

Forms of TC were thought to be on a lot of cars, if not all cars, by the time it was legalised. That was the reason for legalising it, wasn't it? It would be no surprise if Jordan were at the vangard of circumventing the TC rules in 1999, I suppose, because when you view the Jordan era as a whole, 1999 is a bit of a blip, competitiveness-wise. It's only a pity they only had one driver that season.



#61 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:23

Forms of TC were thought to be on a lot of cars, if not all cars, by the time it was legalised. That was the reason for legalising it, wasn't it?

 

Yeah I remember FIA claimed they didn't have the ability to check if a car had TC or not, that's why they did allow it. Re-banning TC became possible only in 2008, when it was announced McLaren Electronics would become the spec software in cars and hence it was possible to effectively ban TC.



#62 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 16,465 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:27

Remember the first four races of 2001, when Ferrari were thought to be running a pseudo-traction control system (as Frentzen himself noted when following a rapidly misfiring Barrichello out of Turn 2 at Melbourne)? I do wonder if that was effectively being trialled by Sauber in '99 and that this is what Mosley was on about.

It was specifically about following Heidfeld (in a Sauber-Ferrrari) in Melbourne that Frentzen made his comment http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/3831/

Mosley's reaction to that: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/13366

 

I can't see how Sauber's 1999 performance had something to do with it.



#63 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:28

It would be no surprise if Jordan were at the vangard of circumventing the TC rules in 1999, I suppose, because when you view the Jordan era as a whole, 1999 is a bit of a blip, competitiveness-wise. It's only a pity they only had one driver that season.

 

However, I don't think Jordan's 1999 was such a complete contrast to other seasons. And TC alone doesn't explain all the difference. IMO the rise and fall of Stewart was much deeper during that period.

 

But Jordan. Already in 1997 very good, had pace to even challenge for wins on several circuits. 1998 started badly, but become third fastest car in the second half of the year. In 1999 continued as the third best, helped by Ferrari and McLaren shooting into the foot at the front of the field. In 2000 Jordan started the season again as third fastest car, but lack of reliability and works engine started to hinder their progress.



#64 wj_gibson

wj_gibson
  • Member

  • 3,919 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:52

Yeah, when Frentzen won at Monza he was simply replicating Fisichella's form at the same circuit in '97 (i.e. running 2nd behind a McLaren, the core difference being that in '99 the McLaren ahead didn't finish). The Mugen was a beast of an engine at the top end.



#65 kamikaze1

kamikaze1
  • Member

  • 1,000 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 03 September 2014 - 18:11

Can't agree more.  The Honda Mugen wasn't as bad as it is being made out to  be.  If I recall correctly, didn't Jordan get an update of the engine for the 1999 season, after the victory the previous year.    Something like that happened, but unfortunately over time I can't place what year.  (getting old!) 


Edited by kamikaze1, 03 September 2014 - 18:13.


#66 Arska

Arska
  • Member

  • 944 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 04 September 2014 - 00:30

How did the court case between Jordan and Frentzen end up?



#67 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,188 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 04 September 2014 - 00:42

Settled it:

Linky : http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/9093/

You may need to be a subscriber to read it, but a google search will tell you the basics.

#68 Junky

Junky
  • Member

  • 810 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 04 September 2014 - 02:28

Between Frentzen 99 and Kubica 08, who had the best chance to win the title?

 

I stay with the latter, because I still believe that, even they had small resources when compared with Ferrari and McLaren, hadn't BMW stopped the development of the car after the win at Montreal, and they might have won the championship with the polish.



#69 Dmitriy_Guller

Dmitriy_Guller
  • Member

  • 6,111 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 04 September 2014 - 02:30

When interrogated further by ITV about his remarks Max said it was a midfield team.

Which highlights what a rotten leader Mosley was.  In his position, you either sanction the team for cheating, or don't cast aspersions at all.  What if Jordan wasn't the team running traction control?  You just blackened the reputation of a group of innocent people.



#70 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 16,465 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 04 September 2014 - 08:24

Which highlights what a rotten leader Mosley was.  In his position, you either sanction the team for cheating, or don't cast aspersions at all.  What if Jordan wasn't the team running traction control?  You just blackened the reputation of a group of innocent people.

He didn't say it was Jordan.

 

I think he said "midfield team" when pressed to make clear that it wasn't Ferrari or McLaren.

Ferrari was on most people's minds those days when the word "cheating" was used, usually countered by questions about McLaren's integrity by the tifosi - see some threads of those days I linked above. So it seemed that Max felt obliged to make clear that it wasn't either of those two.



#71 MetallurgicalHedonist

MetallurgicalHedonist
  • Member

  • 540 posts
  • Joined: November 13

Posted 04 September 2014 - 08:50

Between Frentzen 99 and Kubica 08, who had the best chance to win the title?
 
I stay with the latter, because I still believe that, even they had small resources when compared with Ferrari and McLaren, hadn't BMW stopped the development of the car after the win at Montreal, and they might have won the championship with the polish.


Although, Frentzen got much worse circumstances in 1999 than Kubica in 2008 (Jordan was much more behind Fer and McL than BMW was in 2008), he had the better chancs to win the WDC than Kubica in 2008. Not only because I consider Frentzen to be a better driver than Kubica (all of Frentzen's wins and almost win at Nürburgring were much more impressive than what happened to Kubica in Canada) but also because of the general situation in 1999:

The actual contenders got wins which, in one case, were even gifted to them by more or less nameless short-time guest drivers or they collapsed literally psychologically (Monza) as well as physically (on the Sepang podium). What a pity that Frentzen didn't win the WDC.

#72 FredF1

FredF1
  • Member

  • 2,284 posts
  • Joined: April 00

Posted 04 September 2014 - 14:22

He didn't say it was Jordan.

 

I think he said "midfield team" when pressed to make clear that it wasn't Ferrari or McLaren.

Ferrari was on most people's minds those days when the word "cheating" was used, usually countered by questions about McLaren's integrity by the tifosi - see some threads of those days I linked above. So it seemed that Max felt obliged to make clear that it wasn't either of those two.

 

I think Max said "midfield team" to put Stewart GP in the frame as himself and Sir Jackie were having a bit of a spat at the time. I know, I know, Max Mosley (ab)using his position to settle scores - could never happen could it!



#73 OvDrone

OvDrone
  • Member

  • 16,115 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 04 September 2014 - 22:46

Man, this thread brought back some heavy nostalgia for me. I think I am gonna watch the '99 season review tomorrow night. Cheers.



#74 Dmitriy_Guller

Dmitriy_Guller
  • Member

  • 6,111 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 05 September 2014 - 09:54

He didn't say it was Jordan.

 

I think he said "midfield team" when pressed to make clear that it wasn't Ferrari or McLaren.

Ferrari was on most people's minds those days when the word "cheating" was used, usually countered by questions about McLaren's integrity by the tifosi - see some threads of those days I linked above. So it seemed that Max felt obliged to make clear that it wasn't either of those two.

That's precisely the point.  He didn't say who it was, so there are multiple suspects, only one of whom is actually guilty, with the rest having aspersions cast on their integrity unnecessarily.  Apart from that, it is also an admission of failure to police the sport, which was kind of his job.