And snr.
McLaren nor Williams hired Snr, but Williams did hire Jnr.
Posted 02 September 2014 - 15:43
And snr.
McLaren nor Williams hired Snr, but Williams did hire Jnr.
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Posted 02 September 2014 - 15:45
Corinna surely picked the right guy to marry...
Maybe its just sometimes better not to post?
Posted 02 September 2014 - 16:18
I don't recall Mosley specifying that the team suspected of having a form of traction control in 1999 was a "midfield" team - just a team full stop. Jordan had been the leading midfield team for years prior to 1999, with only the dip in the first half of '98 (with the biggest aero changes in 15 years) interrupting that. And let's be honest about it, if Ferrari and McLaren hadn't conspired to do everything between themselves to lose both titles, HHF would never have been in contention for the title.
Agreed....
Posted 02 September 2014 - 16:19
I was there! A great race to pick for my first GP.
Very very very lucky to be at that one!. What a race. It goes down as my favourite race to have watched live on TV, second being Spa 98. I do miss the races of the late 90's, 12-lap quali, unpredictable races. It was great to see Rubens, Trulli, and Herbert on the Podium that day. It feels strange to reminisce, "I saw Herbert win a race". It was a heartbreaking moment seeing Frentzen retire. It was also embarrassing to watch Irvine and Hakkinen battle for 6th position!. Only for Irvine going wide at the Veedolf (no clue how it is spelt) chicane, he might have gotten those points he needed for the 99 WDC. (Not that I wanted him winning it of course).
Posted 02 September 2014 - 23:08
Posted 03 September 2014 - 07:13
Very very very lucky to be at that one!. What a race. It goes down as my favourite race to have watched live on TV, second being Spa 98. I do miss the races of the late 90's, 12-lap quali, unpredictable races. It was great to see Rubens, Trulli, and Herbert on the Podium that day. It feels strange to reminisce, "I saw Herbert win a race". It was a heartbreaking moment seeing Frentzen retire. It was also embarrassing to watch Irvine and Hakkinen battle for 6th position!. Only for Irvine going wide at the Veedolf (no clue how it is spelt) chicane, he might have gotten those points he needed for the 99 WDC. (Not that I wanted him winning it of course).
Though ironically I really had no idea what was going on - these were the days before there was a TV at every grandstand, and of course you couldn't hear the track commentary, so I just saw the cars come past with different leaders each time it seemed! It was all rather confusing. Luckily I bumped into Grim Jim and Tony Jardine in the car park afterwards who gave me a rundown of the events.
Posted 03 September 2014 - 11:24
I'll have to try & search for the story but the idea Jordan were NOT up to anything that season is pretty much proven to be inaccurate afaic.
I'd love to see the story. In the last 15 years, I have heard not one thing about Jordan apparently using TC during that period :/ In all the years surfing the forums etc, not one thing. Would be great reading if it was true
I know of this article, where HHF accuses Ferrari of using it though http://www.newsonf1....c027/submit.htm Seems a bit hypocritical if so!
Maybe this thread contains that info http://forums.autosp...h-team-cheated/ ... just started reading, but to me it sounds like the illegal TC was on the Ferrari car, which might explain the drop in performance in the second half of 1999.
Edited by kamikaze1, 03 September 2014 - 11:29.
Posted 03 September 2014 - 11:56
I
Maybe this thread contains that info http://forums.autosp...h-team-cheated/ ... just started reading, but to me it sounds like the illegal TC was on the Ferrari car, which might explain the drop in performance in the second half of 1999.
This is another, rather chaotic , thread from those days starting with the assumption that Ferrari was the supposed team running TC. In several posts references are made to the ITV interview with Max where he - when further pressed - said that it was "a midfield team" http://forums.autosp...nts-on-ferrari/
Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:12
Remember the first four races of 2001, when Ferrari were thought to be running a pseudo-traction control system (as Frentzen himself noted when following a rapidly misfiring Barrichello out of Turn 2 at Melbourne)? I do wonder if that was effectively being trialled by Sauber in '99 and that this is what Mosley was on about.
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Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:13
Forms of TC were thought to be on a lot of cars, if not all cars, by the time it was legalised. That was the reason for legalising it, wasn't it? It would be no surprise if Jordan were at the vangard of circumventing the TC rules in 1999, I suppose, because when you view the Jordan era as a whole, 1999 is a bit of a blip, competitiveness-wise. It's only a pity they only had one driver that season.
Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:23
Forms of TC were thought to be on a lot of cars, if not all cars, by the time it was legalised. That was the reason for legalising it, wasn't it?
Yeah I remember FIA claimed they didn't have the ability to check if a car had TC or not, that's why they did allow it. Re-banning TC became possible only in 2008, when it was announced McLaren Electronics would become the spec software in cars and hence it was possible to effectively ban TC.
Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:27
Remember the first four races of 2001, when Ferrari were thought to be running a pseudo-traction control system (as Frentzen himself noted when following a rapidly misfiring Barrichello out of Turn 2 at Melbourne)? I do wonder if that was effectively being trialled by Sauber in '99 and that this is what Mosley was on about.
It was specifically about following Heidfeld (in a Sauber-Ferrrari) in Melbourne that Frentzen made his comment http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/3831/
Mosley's reaction to that: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/13366
I can't see how Sauber's 1999 performance had something to do with it.
Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:28
It would be no surprise if Jordan were at the vangard of circumventing the TC rules in 1999, I suppose, because when you view the Jordan era as a whole, 1999 is a bit of a blip, competitiveness-wise. It's only a pity they only had one driver that season.
However, I don't think Jordan's 1999 was such a complete contrast to other seasons. And TC alone doesn't explain all the difference. IMO the rise and fall of Stewart was much deeper during that period.
But Jordan. Already in 1997 very good, had pace to even challenge for wins on several circuits. 1998 started badly, but become third fastest car in the second half of the year. In 1999 continued as the third best, helped by Ferrari and McLaren shooting into the foot at the front of the field. In 2000 Jordan started the season again as third fastest car, but lack of reliability and works engine started to hinder their progress.
Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:52
Yeah, when Frentzen won at Monza he was simply replicating Fisichella's form at the same circuit in '97 (i.e. running 2nd behind a McLaren, the core difference being that in '99 the McLaren ahead didn't finish). The Mugen was a beast of an engine at the top end.
Posted 03 September 2014 - 18:11
Can't agree more. The Honda Mugen wasn't as bad as it is being made out to be. If I recall correctly, didn't Jordan get an update of the engine for the 1999 season, after the victory the previous year. Something like that happened, but unfortunately over time I can't place what year. (getting old!)
Edited by kamikaze1, 03 September 2014 - 18:13.
Posted 04 September 2014 - 00:30
How did the court case between Jordan and Frentzen end up?
Posted 04 September 2014 - 00:42
Posted 04 September 2014 - 02:28
Between Frentzen 99 and Kubica 08, who had the best chance to win the title?
I stay with the latter, because I still believe that, even they had small resources when compared with Ferrari and McLaren, hadn't BMW stopped the development of the car after the win at Montreal, and they might have won the championship with the polish.
Posted 04 September 2014 - 02:30
When interrogated further by ITV about his remarks Max said it was a midfield team.
Which highlights what a rotten leader Mosley was. In his position, you either sanction the team for cheating, or don't cast aspersions at all. What if Jordan wasn't the team running traction control? You just blackened the reputation of a group of innocent people.
Posted 04 September 2014 - 08:24
Which highlights what a rotten leader Mosley was. In his position, you either sanction the team for cheating, or don't cast aspersions at all. What if Jordan wasn't the team running traction control? You just blackened the reputation of a group of innocent people.
He didn't say it was Jordan.
I think he said "midfield team" when pressed to make clear that it wasn't Ferrari or McLaren.
Ferrari was on most people's minds those days when the word "cheating" was used, usually countered by questions about McLaren's integrity by the tifosi - see some threads of those days I linked above. So it seemed that Max felt obliged to make clear that it wasn't either of those two.
Posted 04 September 2014 - 08:50
Between Frentzen 99 and Kubica 08, who had the best chance to win the title?
I stay with the latter, because I still believe that, even they had small resources when compared with Ferrari and McLaren, hadn't BMW stopped the development of the car after the win at Montreal, and they might have won the championship with the polish.
Posted 04 September 2014 - 14:22
He didn't say it was Jordan.
I think he said "midfield team" when pressed to make clear that it wasn't Ferrari or McLaren.
Ferrari was on most people's minds those days when the word "cheating" was used, usually countered by questions about McLaren's integrity by the tifosi - see some threads of those days I linked above. So it seemed that Max felt obliged to make clear that it wasn't either of those two.
I think Max said "midfield team" to put Stewart GP in the frame as himself and Sir Jackie were having a bit of a spat at the time. I know, I know, Max Mosley (ab)using his position to settle scores - could never happen could it!
Posted 04 September 2014 - 22:46
Man, this thread brought back some heavy nostalgia for me. I think I am gonna watch the '99 season review tomorrow night. Cheers.
Posted 05 September 2014 - 09:54
He didn't say it was Jordan.
I think he said "midfield team" when pressed to make clear that it wasn't Ferrari or McLaren.
Ferrari was on most people's minds those days when the word "cheating" was used, usually countered by questions about McLaren's integrity by the tifosi - see some threads of those days I linked above. So it seemed that Max felt obliged to make clear that it wasn't either of those two.
That's precisely the point. He didn't say who it was, so there are multiple suspects, only one of whom is actually guilty, with the rest having aspersions cast on their integrity unnecessarily. Apart from that, it is also an admission of failure to police the sport, which was kind of his job.