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Was Rosberg missing the chicane his 'penalty'?


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#201 sennafan24

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 17:20

Rosberg has locked up and gone straight on in Monaco, Canada, Austria and Monza. To me all 4 occasions seemed fundamentally the same - i.e. he was PUSHING.

 

But according to the conspiracy theorists, they're able to tell the difference that:

 

in Monaco - he did it on purpose (he is a cheat)

in Canada - he was under pressure (he is mentally weak)

in Austria - he made a mistake (he is error prone)

in Monza - he was told to (he was being punished by the team)

 

No really, that's what they're saying.  :stoned:

On at least 3 of those occasions (Italy, Canada and Monaco), Nico was pushing because he was under pressure. Pressure and pushing have a strong correlation with each other.

 

I agree these conspiracy theories are getting out of hand



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#202 JTSaika

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 17:21

Not to mention it's not uncommon to receive shots of the TeamP's as the race unfolds, most infamously are the shots of the ever always shake of Horner's foot. We also had that great shot of Vejay as Checo was fighting with Button and not to mention the amount of shots we get of the garage as someone crashes/passes. The transmission delay is just pure logic.



#203 Tsarwash

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 20:02

It is live. He is talking about transmission delay, those few seconds between a crowd shot and idiots waving at cameras or big screens.

 

The reaction shot was cut to live. The fact he sees it on the garage monitors later is immaterial at best, and wilful and deliberate obfuscation at worst.

 

Two sources reporting the same quote given to the same unquestioning TV anchor is not two sources. It is one non-denial denial cut and pasted.

Have you any proof, or is it just your opinion again. Toto might be lying, but until I see actual real evidence to the contrary, I am inclined to believe him. 



#204 rooksby

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 21:41

Have you any proof, or is it just your opinion again. Toto might be lying, but until I see actual real evidence to the contrary, I am inclined to believe him. 

 

Toto Wolff did not lie, that is the precise point of a non-denial denial. I am starting to get the feeling you are unaware of what that phrase means when I say it. When a subject issues a factual statement which is not actually a response or denial to the question they were asked.

 

Look, we get it, you're somewhat agitated that you swallowed whole a line of basic misdirection that was fed to you, it clearly didn't even touch the sides as it went down, subsequently you stridently regurgitated it in public to another user with the statement : "Your major bit of evidence is a snip of video that everybody knows was show [sic] out of sequence".

 

So now you've had some time to think about and secretly perhaps feel foolish that you were so easily led up the garden path with such a simple non-denial denial. Then you had the transmission delay thing pointed out to you, and that didn't make you feel any more clever. Or thinking two people copy and pasting the same quote was two sources didn't help. But for some reason you choose to double-down.

 

But now the replies are suddenly couched in "inclined to"s and "believe"s, what happened to the "everybody knows", your choice of language betrays your nascent lack of confidence.

 

 

 

My initial entry into this discussion, first sentence, couldn't have been clearer : "Presently I have no strong opinions on Rosberg's behaviour or intention either way" ... in your unnecessarily argumentative response you somehow chose to directly reply to this with "So, I still insist that you are making up 'facts' to prop up your agenda."

 

With that kind of wilful lack of reading comprehension, it was clear immediately that this discussion would prove as pointless as it would be time-wasting. If you were inclined towards civility, you would choose now to apologise for that unnecessary and incorrect accusation of deliberate falsehood.

 

Watch the broadcast. The shot was cut to live, as soon as the overtake was complete, before the replays, they do not have a folder of various suitably dramatic pre-captured reaction shots cued, FOM do not routinely cut pre-recorded footage into a live broadcast as if it were live.

 

The burden of proof is on you, not me. Why don't you go away and find a clip from any FOM produced live broadcast from the last ten years where they dishonestly (and seamlessly, and instantly) intercut pre-recorded footage into their transmission for the purpose of engineered dramatic effect. Go through all the races, and come back when you find one. Then we'll talk.



#205 Tsarwash

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 22:04

Rooksyby, Sorry, I was mixing you up with the other poster who was insisting that the move was deliberate, So I'm happy to retract everything I was saying about an agenda, But there's not reason to be rude and provocative. 

I'm afraid that I can't be bothered to get into an argument that I don't give a **** about. It may or may not have been live, (I don't actually care and I don't think it proves anything even if it was 'live') but I certainly haven't been spoon fed information from Mercedes without question. I merely used those quotes as an easy way to show Toto's denial, without going through the various race threads page by page to find out where the numerous people were saying that it wasn't a live picture. 



#206 OvDrone

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 22:47

This whole thread is BS...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

... or is it?

 

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Edited by OvDrone, 17 September 2014 - 22:47.


#207 sennafan24

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 22:56

This whole thread is BS...

... or is it?

I am surprised this guy has not given his perspective 

 

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#208 Dolph

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 23:02

"If we are not able to manage the two of them following the Mercedes-Benz spirit then we need to admit that," added Wolff.

 

Hey, Wolff. How about admitting you are escalating matters in public and thus mismanaging the situation in the first place. How about looking in the mirror first And if you can't cut it then get the f*** out. A problem you say? Not at all. Just rehire the guy who is responsible for putting together the superteam that is Mercedes F1 today - Ross Brawn.
 



#209 OvDrone

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 23:04

Wolff is nothing. Try a pissed off Helmut Marko.



#210 Brother Fox

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 00:03

Totally aside from this scenario being completely bogus, your math is quite terrible. Lewis lost likely 25 or 18 points at Spa. Pretending for a moment that Nico let Lewis by at Monza, all he gained back was 7 points. Certainly things are far from evened out - by a longway...

 

No your maths is terrible. Lets assume theyre both on 100 points to start (it makes the change more obvious i think) then scenario 1 is

 

Nico - 100 + 25 = 125

LH - 100 + 18 = 118

 

but with the switcheroo, it becomes

 

Nico - 100 + 18 = 118

LH - 100 + 25 = 125

 

So instead of being 7 points ahead, he is 7 points behind, which is a 14 point change

Which is a long way towards the 18 LH might have scored in Spa.

 

Im not buying into the conspiracy, but the numbers are fairly solid



#211 hollowstar

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 15:11

No your maths is terrible. Lets assume theyre both on 100 points to start (it makes the change more obvious i think) then scenario 1 is

Nico - 100 + 25 = 125
LH - 100 + 18 = 118

but with the switcheroo, it becomes

Nico - 100 + 18 = 118
LH - 100 + 25 = 125

So instead of being 7 points ahead, he is 7 points behind, which is a 14 point change
Which is a long way towards the 18 LH might have scored in Spa.

Im not buying into the conspiracy, but the numbers are fairly solid


I like the way you count, people often forget to withdraw points from one of the drivers when doing this.

But here, the gap between Nico and Lewis did increase by 18 points at Spa as only one car finished, and then decreased by 7 points at Monza.

It did not decrease by 14.

#212 Tsarwash

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 15:29

Just to jump into he maths thing. I agree, giving Lewis the win 'gained' him 14 points in Monza, but If Lewis had won at Spa and Nico was second, they would be on say 125 and 118 points respectively. Add Monza makes it 150 to Lewis and 136 to Nico, a gap of 14. But Lewis lost 25 points at Spa, assuming that he would have won, which was at least a 50/50. So Lewis lost 25 points at Spa and gained only 14 back at Monza. Of course all this is going along with the conspiracy that I doubt happened. 


Edited by Tsarwash, 18 September 2014 - 15:29.


#213 moralev21

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 21:57

TheJudge13 confirms that Monza was in fact a team order and not a "race incident":

 

Thanks hadn't seen this.  It's actually a commentary by Mansell on the incident, here's in full:

 

Mansell – Mercedes will decide World Champion

nigel-mansell-united-states-formula-one-With the preceding article in mind, 1992 World Champion Nigel Mansell offers an interesting take on the developments within the Mercedes camp. He is of the opinion that Mercedes will decide the outcome of the winner of the 2014 drivers title – except now, any instructions will most likely be given prior to the drivers getting into their respective cars.

With radio transmissions banned, no longer will the international audience hear the drivers being told to drive to a delta, leave the attack for later on or simply ‘hold position’. Both Rosberg and Hamilton now know that the gloves are off.

After Monza, two independent sources from within Mercedes offered to TJ13 that instructions had been given to Rosberg in regards to his having to ‘gift’ a victory to Hamilton as payback for what was judged to have been his fault – or what the rest of the world calls a racing accident.

Of the remaining 7 races this season, it was inevitable that finding himself in front in Monza with a fast catching Lewis behind him, Rosberg decided to pay back as per the teams instructions and deliberately out-braked himself not once but twice, both times with barely a puff of smoke and straight-lining the chicane. The first time navigating and accelerating through as quickly as possible, the second a more conservative approach and a more leisurely application of the loud pedal – the difference? The second time it was his team-mate behind him.

Of course observers will claim that he made similar mistakes in Canada but each time he would use the painted tarmac beyond the white lines to maintain an advantage. In Monza, he took to an escape road rather than attempt to make the chicane. Whereas most other drivers avoided the the slalom through the cones preferring to clatter over the speed bumps of the chicane.

Mansell himself said: “Many people are wondering if Nico threw the race, but the only ones who would really know that is Mercedes and Nico. I do not know what the real answer is, but I know I would have tried to make the chicane.”

“Mercedes is one of the best teams but I have to think that they have allowed the situation to over-run them. It was intriguing to see their reaction after Spa. It’s an easy situation to deal with team-mates because no-one complained. The stewards, and I have been one, maintained it was a racing incident and as drivers you never ‘wash your dirty laundry in public’. But the teams reaction afterwards was surprising!

“Lewis did a great job in Monza but it’s all in Mercedes’ hands. Ultimately the one who wins the title is the one they want to promote. It’s a simple thing to say but these two great drivers should operate as the team instructs them. I hope they let them race but if there are further repercussions then the team will take action…”

 

 

Full link here:

 

http://thejudge13.co...r-2014/#Mansell believes Mercedes will decide world champion#

 

Now the wait for everyone who still denies the possibility of a conspiracy to attack Mansell as a washed-up champion who shouldn't be talking about things he doesnt understand etc etc



#214 Tsarwash

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 04:03

I'm not denying the possibility of a conspiracy. I'm denying the probability of a conspiracy. It's certainly possible in my opinion, but really not likely. 



#215 DarthWillie

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 06:25

For me it's quite clear Mercedes wants Lewis to win the wdc, this year Lewis gets away with everything including ignoring teamorders and gets sympathy from the team. Nico gets a public thrashing for a racing incident Already DURING the race. Probably the brass can't have the driver they pay the most not winning. Now the technical problems kept interfering the Spa incident gave them a chance to manipulate. Yeah it was a teamorder to gift Lewis the win in my opinion

#216 tmzxaar

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 08:09

For me it's quite clear Mercedes wants Lewis to win the wdc, this year Lewis gets away with everything including ignoring teamorders and gets sympathy from the team. Nico gets a public thrashing for a racing incident Already DURING the race. Probably the brass can't have the driver they pay the most not winning. Now the technical problems kept interfering the Spa incident gave them a chance to manipulate. Yeah it was a teamorder to gift Lewis the win in my opinion

 From your post I conclude you know nothing about racing :)



#217 Cyanide

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 08:44

For me it's quite clear Mercedes wants Lewis to win the wdc, this year Lewis gets away with everything including ignoring teamorders and gets sympathy from the team. Nico gets a public thrashing for a racing incident Already DURING the race. Probably the brass can't have the driver they pay the most not winning. Now the technical problems kept interfering the Spa incident gave them a chance to manipulate. Yeah it was a teamorder to gift Lewis the win in my opinion

 

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#218 ANF

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 13:22

So, was Rosberg LOCKING UP in turn 2 and DESTROYING HIS TYRES on lap 1 another "PENALTY"? Any thoughts on this? :smoking:



#219 thegamer23

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 13:23

Lol

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#220 f1RacingForever

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 13:27

For me it's quite clear Mercedes wants Lewis to win the wdc, this year Lewis gets away with everything including ignoring teamorders and gets sympathy from the team. Nico gets a public thrashing for a racing incident Already DURING the race. Probably the brass can't have the driver they pay the most not winning. Now the technical problems kept interfering the Spa incident gave them a chance to manipulate. Yeah it was a teamorder to gift Lewis the win in my opinion

I don't think they care which of them wins the WDC, but it is interesting that Hamilton can ignore team orders and disclose info from private meetings with seemingly no consequence while Nico is publicly criticized for incidents like spa.

#221 R Soul

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 13:34

Well, Hamilton (or HAM as some silly people call him) scored no points in Belgium, whereas he should have scored at least 18. Therefore Rosberg (or ROS as some silly people call him) has to let Hamilton make up 18 points. Of course he has to be subtle about it, otherwise people might raise concerns on the internet.



#222 f1RacingForever

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 13:41

Yeah but by intentionally flat spotting tires, it jepordizes their 1, 2 finishing position and maximum constructors points. It would be much easier just to fake a brake problem or ers problem and have Hamilton pass on the straight. Not that Mercedes would ever do this nor would rosberg ever comply. It's silly to even consider it.

#223 skid solo

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 14:02

I'm not denying the possibility of a conspiracy. I'm denying the probability of a conspiracy. It's certainly possible in my opinion, but really not likely.

If Mercedes have conspired for Hamilton to win the championship this season they have made a complete ass of it. Starting with a retirement at the first race.

#224 Nonesuch

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 14:08

So, was Rosberg LOCKING UP in turn 2 and DESTROYING HIS TYRES on lap 1 another "PENALTY"? Any thoughts on this?

 

It's what a real lock up looks like. It was nothing like that contrived move in Italy. Or so some would claim.  ;)



#225 HoldenRT

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 15:16

I miss the days when this felt like an actual championship battle. :(



#226 Nigol

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 15:45

So obviously his penalty was to let Hamilton win the next 4 races. Are they free to race in Austin?  :mad:



#227 BRG

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 10:21

Sochi shows that Nico has become the master of outbraking.  He can even outbrake himself. Unfortunately, it will lose him a WDC.