100 replies to this topic

[Ijsman]

In this Monza GP he did it all the time. Just when someone was up to a couple of meters within his car he suddenly and erratically changed his line close to or in the braking zone (where a line change isn't allowed). Nobody else on the grid does this. It is potentially very dangerous (IMO), and it could cause a Kubica like accident or a fatal accident like Gilles Villeneuve had (RIP). 

 

What do you guys think about it?

 

I'm not talking about him pushing Bottas off track, to be clear.

Edited by Ijsman, 07 September 2014 - 16:08.

[Myrvold]

Meh, I pushed the wrong answer in the poll...

It looked worse from TV-camera than onboard.

[bub]

I thought it was ok and he timed it well. He was very close to the edge though and he needs to make sure he doesn't go over that edge.

[New Britain]

It would help if you had not asked the question in a "Have you stopped beating your wife?" kind of way.

 

Asking for comments on what you describe as "dangerous blocking" presupposes that he was "blocking", and presupposes that what he was doing was "dangerous".  Neither was necessarily the case, unless under the generic heading of, "WARNING: MOTOR SPORT CAN BE DANGEROUS."

Magnussen, like the other 21 drivers at Monza, was racing. It happens.

[Emilvang]

What a neutral question, with no leading questions at all!

 

To answer your question: Everybody does do it, it is called changing your lane, and you are allowed to do it once.

Edited by Emilvang, 07 September 2014 - 15:33.

[garoidb]

It would help if you had not asked the question in a "Have you stopped beating your wife?" kind of way.

 

Asking for comments on what you describe as "dangerous blocking" presupposes that he was "blocking", and presupposes that what he was doing was "dangerous".  Neither was necessarily the case, unless under the generic heading of, "WARNING: MOTOR SPORT CAN BE DANGEROUS."

Magnussen, like the other 21 drivers at Monza, was racing. It happens.

 

It is certainly true that the OP has not posed a balanced question.

 

However, I did think he made late moves at times today and putting Alonso off where he did at Spa is not acceptable. 

[Spillage]

Voted no, I think it's fine. It is in the rules that blocking is allowed; it is also in the rules that forcing another car off the track is prohibited. I think the stewards were entirely correct with their treatment of Magnussen today.

[Ijsman]

It would help if you had not asked the question in a "Have you stopped beating your wife?" kind of way.

 

Asking for comments on what you describe as "dangerous blocking" presupposes that he was "blocking", and presupposes that what he was doing was "dangerous".  Neither was necessarily the case, unless under the generic heading of, "WARNING: MOTOR SPORT CAN BE DANGEROUS."

Magnussen, like the other 21 drivers at Monza, was racing. It happens.

 

I repeat, nobody else did that move. He did it every time he was attacked at the variante del rettifilo. He was racing, but dirty.

[Jejking]

He went over the line with Bottas that one time and Alonso on the straight in Spa. Otherwise, nothing to comment about? He's an agressive driver and he should be. His ass is on the line for next year, although I still think they'll keep him.

[SophieB]

It would help if you had not asked the question in a "Have you stopped beating your wife?" kind of way.

 

 

Indeed. I've edited the question to be more neutral. 

[Ijsman]

What a neutral question, with no leading questions at all!

 

To answer your question: Everybody does do it, it is called changing your lane, and you are allowed to do it once.

 

I know. The difference, as you have undoubtedly seen is that Magnussen did it when the following car was almost next to him.

[Jerem]

Changing line under braking, too dangerous. Punish him until he stops or gets fired.

[DutchQuicksilver]

What a neutral question, with no leading questions at all!

 

To answer your question: Everybody does do it, it is called changing your lane, and you are allowed to do it once.

Just not in the braking zone and Magnussen is very close to doing that.

[LeClerc]

Someone should have a quit talk with him about the late change of line. One day he will time it badly, and that can go spectacularly wrong.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like him being feisty. But everything in moderation.

[A.Fant]

He went too deep and forced Bottas off the track, I think it is pretty clear cut. 100% in favour of the penalty, that sort of defending shouldn't be allowed.

 

Had he given the place up within a lap or two I'm certain he wouldn't have gotten a time penalty, the team should've told him to do so.

[RedOne]

He's too much of a hot head, needs to calm down before he causes a big collision.

Edited by RedOne, 07 September 2014 - 16:00.

[Mc_Silver]

I don't think there's anything wrong about Magnussen's driving. He's agressive and we as F1 fans like to see aggressive but controlled drivers. His driving reminds me of Hamilton from the past. He had such moments many times as well. Don't forget he's a rookie and he's learning all  the time. I'm sure he'll be much better driver next year. He has the speed and talent which are the most important things in F1. He's also not arrogant outside the races which is nice to see. 

Edited by Mc_Silver, 07 September 2014 - 16:04.

[Ijsman]

He went too deep and forced Bottas off the track, I think it is pretty clear cut. 100% in favour of the penalty, that sort of defending shouldn't be allowed.

 

Had he given the place up within a lap or two I'm certain he wouldn't have gotten a time penalty, the team should've told him to do so.

 

Read the last line in my first post in this topic. He already has a penalty for that as you said.

[meddo]

Kid is fun to watch.
Enough with this extra punishing,what is this Max's dungeon?

[fisssssi]

Other drivers manage to dice without pushing each other off the track (e.g. Perez today). For some reason K-Mag can't seem to manage this.

When Massa was passed by Hamilton into the first chicane he gave him space on the left, but when Bottas tried the same move Magnussen just pushed him off. He deserved the penalty and I'm glad it cost him big.

[Ijsman]

Indeed. I've edited the question to be more neutral. 

 

Can you edit the title to "Magnussen's defensive line change ahead of the first corner".

This title is not specific enough, as some people are starting to discuss his driving in general. I'm talking specifically about his line change ahead of the variante del rettifilo which he performed multiple times this GP.

 

Thank you.

[Nonesuch]

Magnussen's driving is not very impressive. His inability or reluctance to keep a side-by-side line through a corner is rightly getting him penalized. It's his loss; this is the second time in a row his driving is costing McLaren important points.

 

His last-second blocking stands out, but it usually looks worse on the long lenses - for obvious reasons - than they do on the onboard cameras. I'm sure this is something that the drivers discuss regularly, so unless some of them come out publicly I'll assume that it's under control, even if it's not appreciated by all.

Edited by Nonesuch, 07 September 2014 - 16:28.

[SophieB]

Can you edit the title to "Magnussen's defensive line change ahead of the first corner".

This title is not specific enough, as some people are starting to discuss his driving in general. I'm talking specifically about his line change ahead of the variante del rettifilo which he performed multiple times this GP.

 

Thank you.

 

That's fair. Done.

[Skinnyguy]

These late defense moves give no benefit whatsoever compared to a normal defensive move, other than making hesitate and annoying the driver behind. He should stop doing it. If he feels the need to brake in the inside, he should move across a bit earlier. One day he´s going to get run over by someone unable to brake and turn at the same time.

[Kobasmashi]

I thought the stewards were harsh today to give him a penalty, Bottas was fine and passed him soon after, no biggie. I think a 5 second penalty for his schwerve on Alonso in Spa would have been fair, the 25 second penalty seemed again very draconian and unlike the more lenient approach the stewards have taken this season on the whole.

Maybe they're trying to teach the new kid a lesson.

[Ijsman]

I thought the stewards were harsh today to give him a penalty, Bottas was fine and passed him soon after, no biggie. I think a 5 second penalty for his schwerve on Alonso in Spa would have been fair, the 25 second penalty seemed again very draconian and unlike the more lenient approach the stewards have taken this season on the whole.

Maybe they're trying to teach the new kid a lesson.

 

That's not what I was talking about.

[New Britain]

Indeed. I've edited the question to be more neutral. 

 

Thank you.  

[Lotus53B]

Historically, the FIA have always punished similar transgressions in consecutive races - at Spa he got a retrospective 20s, here he got a retrospective 5 seconds.

He's a good driver, but at 200+mph, you can't twitch like that.

[Ijsman]

Historically, the FIA have always punished similar transgressions in consecutive races - at Spa he got a retrospective 20s, here he got a retrospective 5 seconds.

He's a good driver, but at 200+mph, you can't twitch like that.

 

But they only punished him for shoving Bottas off track, right? He only got punished following his fight with Bottas, while he did the line change thing with everyone.

 

By the way, has anyone got onboards of the drivers he did it to?

[Lotus53B]

Maybe only Williams complained.  I may be wrong, but in such situations I believe that there has to be a complaint for it to be investigated.

[Kobasmashi]

That's not what I was talking about.

FWIW I chose the "It's OK as long as nothing happens" option in the poll

[Ijsman]

Maybe only Williams complained.  I may be wrong, but in such situations I believe that there has to be a complaint for it to be investigated.

 

True. I guess we'll have to wait for an accident to happen specifically because of the line change thing then.

[Ijsman]

FWIW I chose the "It's OK as long as nothing happens" option in the poll

 

Uhhh okay, why are you telling me this? Or were you talking about his line change at the braking zone and not the shoving Bottas off track in the corner? Anyways, thanks for voting!

 

Sorry double post.

Edited by Ijsman, 07 September 2014 - 17:45.

[bourbon]

I'm sure he has figured out that he has to reassess his driving.  This is his 2nd penalty in as many races. 

 

He's a rookie.  That is what they do.  There is only a problem if they don't improve and/or become dangerous.

[HoldenRT]

He's already been penalised twice.  A 20-30 second penalty (pitstop) would have been harsh.

 

It was a 5 second penalty, and it was the second offense in a row.. two races in a row.. so pretty lenient or gentle really..

 

He's clearly pushing the limit of the rules defensively.. but no one needs to say anything because he's already been penalised both times and lost positions.  Nothing needs to be said.  System working as intended IMO.

 

Post race they mentioned Button being similar against Perez.  Not the same thing IMO, there was no contact and Perez regained the position the following corner and they continued battling fairly.  Something like that was a one off for Button, where as it's been a constant theme with Mag, for the last 2 races.  Not just against any one driver but against quite a few different drivers.  He's been a mobile chicane and you could say that's good defending, but Alonso didn't think so, Bottas didn't think so and the stewards didn't think so.  After the race, both Button and Perez talked positively of their battles.  Unlike people who have battled Mag.. there's your difference.

[goingthedistance]

I think Ron has got in his head a bit too much. Reminds me of Frank Williams egging on Webber back in the day. I thought he came close to crossing the line several times.

[fed up]

Changing line under braking, too dangerous. Punish him until he stops or gets fired.

This

[Hans V]

I am a fan of him and I like his fighting spirit, but I have to say he overstepped the mark a time or two by changing position in the breaking zone, thereby putting his opponent in a difficult position. The penalty was probably justified, allthough his moves was not much worse than Alonso and Vettel was pulling on each other a few races ago.

[Treads]

He's already been penalised twice.  A 20-30 second penalty (pitstop) would have been harsh.

 

It was a 5 second penalty, and it was the second offense in a row.. two races in a row.. so pretty lenient or gentle really..

 

He's clearly pushing the limit of the rules defensively.. but no one needs to say anything because he's already been penalised both times and lost positions.  Nothing needs to be said.  System working as intended IMO.

 

Post race they mentioned Button being similar against Perez.  Not the same thing IMO, there was no contact and Perez regained the position the following corner and they continued battling fairly.  Something like that was a one off for Button, where as it's been a constant theme with Mag, for the last 2 races.  Not just against any one driver but against quite a few different drivers.  He's been a mobile chicane and you could say that's good defending, but Alonso didn't think so, Bottas didn't think so and the stewards didn't think so.  After the race, both Button and Perez talked positively of their battles.  Unlike people who have battled Mag.. there's your difference.

 

He was punished for forcing another driver off the track in the traction zone, not for moving about in the braking zone. 

 

Apparently the stewards had no issue with his movements under braking. 

 

I must say I saw him move a couple of times right before the braking zone, not in it, very suddenly to the right to take up the inside line, this was not in fact blocking the other driver. Extremely dangerous if the other driver was to the right, but they weren't. I don't understand what the fuss is about re: his lines under braking. What am I missing? 

 

Him forcing Bottas off the track deserved a penalty, I guess, as Bottas was fully alongside. Seems fair to me, maybe a little inconsistent. Where is the line? If Bottas had been 2 metres further back, it would have been fine for KM to do that (i.e. Hamilton on Rosberg in Spa). What about 1 metre? 1.5 metres? 0.5 metres? 

[noID]

The thing is guys... even though it looked like contact on tv. Both drivers said post race, that there was no contact.

[ElDictatore]

His late defensive move is difficult to assess. From the onboards it didn't look that dangerous at all, contrary to the outside shots. I would understand though if the FIA will issue a warning - drivers didn't seem too bothered though.

 

The penalty today was too harsh tbh. Especially considering that they announced to penalise less often a couple of races ago.

[Juan Kerr]

I am a big fan of Kevin Mag but I did notice from other races that he is a little bit of an a£$e with his driving, a little bit of negativity or perverseness (such a word?) however you care to describe it, certainly not very respectful let's say. Of course we don't want him to be a wimp on track but still. Regarding the rules I'm not bothered, there's an etiquette which he doesn't seem to be bothered about. Kids of today eh?

[DanardiF1]

I think it's dangerous because it's putting all the responsibility on the other driver to make potentially life-saving avoiding action. We saw the incident that came out of Perez making his typical move in the braking zone with Massa in Canada, at other tracks that could've been much worse.

 

Pick a line, because you are toying with the safety of the following driver if you do not.

 

I don't think they are doing it to be dangerous by any stretch, but they have to realise that they are not just defending hard, they are making it almost impossibly hard for the following driver to pick his own line and in doing so are endangering both of them.

 

Magnussen isn't the biggest culprit although he has been spotted trying it a couple of times in the last few races. Perez is a major culprit, and Gutierrez is another as we saw today.

Edited by DanardiF1, 07 September 2014 - 20:33.

[Jejking]

Those 'eratic' movements are a trademark and predictable. Nobody tripped over it. Some drivers come across slow, others move more suddenly. It's no problem if you know who you are up against. Bottas turned it into mince meat quite quickly.

[redreni]

Nowhere near as bad as Gutierez's manoever, in my view. He wasn't penalised for it and rightly so, in my view, although it was certainly getting close to the line of acceptability. Some of his defending is a bit GP2 but I think most of what he's done here and at Spa has been just about okay. but when you drive like that, the stewards will take a look at any incident that does occur a bit more closely than they otherwise might.

 

I think the penalty was arguable because, unless we're going to say that you can't brake late on the way into retifilio when you have the inside line and run it in deep, it has to be for the driver on the outside to decide whether to put himself in a position where he will have to go off the track to avoid contact. By the letter of the rules, I think the driver on the outside is owed space if he's even partially alongside, but I think when we're talking about chicanes the letter of the rules seem to conflict with long-established racing etiquette, because if the guy on the inside is required to leave a car's width going through the chicane, he will have to brake so early that he will automatically lose the position before the corner.

 

So overall I think he's been harshly treated.

[Physicist2]

The poll needs one more option: The rules need changing.
The first couple of seasons of DRS, we saw moves much more dangerous than anything in today's race. Drivers would watch a car come up with very high closing speed under DRS and defend by making a last second lane change - forcing the overtaking car to lift or have a collision. It was effectively a "brake-check" move. I thought the situation was crazy and expected a fatality if the rules were not changed. To my knowldege, there was no rule change; we see less of this mostly because DRS zones have been modified to reduce the closing speed of the overtaking car. But the tactic remains legal as far as I know. A car clear ahead is allowed one defensive lane change, and as long as it is not in the braking zone there is no formal restriction on how late and abruptly it can be made. There needs to be a formal rule prohibiting "brake check" lane changes as a defending tactic against DRS overtakes.

Edited by Physicist2, 08 September 2014 - 02:40.

[paulogman]

In The braking zone Bottas was ahead. In that situation you can't take the natural racing line because you no longer own the corner. Kevin should have left a lane

Edited by paulogman, 08 September 2014 - 02:46.

[dbltop]

I think Magnussen got penalized for the same thing that Schumacher made a career out of. 

[totgate]

I hate his style of driving. Why drivers can't fight fair anymore is a riddle to me. They learn to drive like this in lower formulas and bring this behaviour along to F1. Absolutely hate it. But i guess when one of these KIDS kill or seriously injure another driver some kind of panic actions will be done by FIA....

[Montie]

I think people are overreacting a bit. Bottas could have backed out it himself. The fans want racing...a fight for positions. There should not have been any penalty, a warning maybe. I have seen worse things going unpunished.