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The other corners at Reims


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#1 Barry Boor

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 16:03

Looking at the Reims circuit that was used from the mid-1950s until the mid 1960s, I think most of us are familiar with the names of three of the five corners.  (Herr Tilke, please note - yes, only FIVE corners!).

 

Gueux, Muizon and Thillois are very well known but I'm wondering if the two corners between Gueux and Muizon had names and if they did, what were they?



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#2 RogerFrench

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 16:32

Wasn't the one at the beginning of the long straight called la Garenne? Or is that just the name of the hamlet there?

#3 Barry Boor

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 16:39

It is sometimes called La Garenne and sometimes Muizon.  Maybe someone knows why there are two names.  I don't think either is wrong.



#4 Duc-Man

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 17:19

This is the graphic that is on wikipedia of the original layout:

Circuit-reims-gueux-1926-b.png

From the german edition of the Collins book Autodrome: The Lost Race Circuits Of Europe:

983800_861115367235116_38081684940012220

 

Hope this helps.



#5 Allan Lupton

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 17:27

As I understand it La Garenne was the right-hand rightangle where the old road from Gueux joined the straight and the name survived the 1952 changes as the name for the slight bend in the same place. Muizon was where the new road that bypassed Gueux hairpinned right onto the straight.

i.e. before 1952 there was only Virage de la Garenne but later there were both Virage de Muizon and Virage de la Garenne

 

ETA Duc-Man posted while I was typing: the German diagram does not show la Garenne although I still believe there was a slight bend of that name.

I don't believe the pre-1952 diagram when it refers to a corner as Annie Bousquet. Our friend at Speedqueens tells us that the corner where Annie Bousquet was killed in 1956 was named after her


Edited by Allan Lupton, 07 September 2014 - 17:40.


#6 Barry Boor

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 18:31

Thank you, gents.

#7 Jon Saltinstall

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 20:27

In "Touch Wood"', Duncan Hamilton (whom I acknowledge isn't always the most accurate historian!) refers to the sweeping bend bypassing Gueux as "Heliopolis". I've never seen the corner called by this name in any other reference sources - does it have any provenance? For what it's worth, Hawthorn is reported to have regarded this bend as one of the most challenging in the world, up there with the pit bend at Bremgarten.

Just to tidy up the evolution of the track, the original circuit passing through the village of Gueux lasted until 1951; the bend bypassing Gueux was built in time for the 1953 GP. The track then turned right at a new corner, Virage de la Hovette, and then continued on its original route up to Virage de la Garenne. For 1954 the new section was added beyond Hovette to rejoin RN 31 nearer to Soissons at Muizon. The Garenne section lapsed at this point and was never reactivated for racing, though it remained as part of the test course.

Edited by Jon Saltinstall, 07 September 2014 - 20:39.


#8 LittleChris

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 20:52

I'm pretty much completely in agreement with Allan Lupton though believe the new corner after the Pits from 1952 was originally known as Calvary, as per the original kink ,  rather than Gueux.

 

I believe the new section up to Muizon formed part of the 1953 circuit rather than 1954 onwards, the corner at Hovette being part of the Circuit de Vitesse just used during 1952 .


Edited by LittleChris, 07 September 2014 - 20:54.


#9 Roger Clark

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 22:27

I've never understood references to the section of road from (roughly) Hovette to La Garenne as the test circuit (Circuit d'Essais).  This was still a public road; indeed, a circuit could only be formed by closing the RN31 from La Garenne to Thillois and the CD27 from Thillois to Gueux.  I don't think that road was ever used for test purposes.  Mercedes did test the W196 at Reims two weeks before its race debut but i don't know whether it used the race circuit or some variation.  It would have been good of the French to close a Route Nationale for a German team.

 

Also, did the section of road from Gueux to Muizon, opened as LittleChris says, in 1953 exist before it was incorporated into the circuit or was it specially built?  Probably the latter as it has now disappeared while the original road to La Garenne is (I think) still a pubic road.  Did that road and the Gueux by-pass become public roads as soon as they were built?

 

Hawthorn's regarding the Gueux bend as one of the most challenging is born put by stories of Fangio leaving his rivals astonished during practice for the 1956 Grand Prix when they realised he was taking the bend flat.  They almost retired on the spot when it emerged that he was doing it one-handed, holding the car in gear with the other.  



#10 Robin Fairservice

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 23:37

I am sure that I remember seeing some reporting about Fangio being flat out through Gueux, and afterwards someone reckoned that Fangio was thought to be flat out because they did not hear him  lift.



#11 Paulleek

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 07:52

DB2zkX.jpg

 

I don't have immediate  access to all of my archive material regarding the circuit, but here is a good (and in my opinion attractive) stylised illustration of it. It's an extract from an equally attractive and well produced brochure which the Automobile Club de Champagne created to mark the '59 Grand Prix meeting.

 

Concerning La Garenne - this is the area of higher ground which included the junction of the access road from Gueux and the N31, and a slight right-hander. The Auberge de La Garenne at the Virage de Thillois takes its name from it (and "garenne" is french for wild rabbit).


Edited by Paulleek, 08 September 2014 - 08:38.


#12 Barry Boor

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 08:48

.... and while we are on the subject of Reims is there any definitive reason given as to why there was no F.2 Coupe de Vitesse in 1960?

Just wondering!

#13 wenoopy

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 09:44

.... and while we are on the subject of Reims is there any definitive reason given as to why there was no F.2 Coupe de Vitesse in 1960?

Just wondering!

 

Could it have been a reaction to the problems of 1959, when the extreme heat caused the track surface to break up in places, and also led to some heat exhaustion to drivers in the F2 race, some of whom then had to start in the Grand Prix, only a short time later.

 

At some stage a restriction or prohibition was made on drivers competing in other races within (?) 24 hours before a World Championship GP, but not as early as 1960, I suspect. 

 

Stu Buchanan



#14 rudi

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 16:24

.... and while we are on the subject of Reims is there any definitive reason given as to why there was no F.2 Coupe de Vitesse in 1960?

Just wondering!

 

In place of the F2 race there was a Coupe de vitesse des Juniors.



#15 LittleChris

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 19:41


Also, did the section of road from Gueux to Muizon, opened as LittleChris says, in 1953 exist before it was incorporated into the circuit or was it specially built?  Probably the latter as it has now disappeared while the original road to La Garenne is (I think) still a pubic road.  Did that road and the Gueux by-pass become public roads as soon as they were built?

 

 

 

I found the map at the link below which is based on early 1950's data and there's no sign of a road from Hovette to Muizon so I guess it was specially built.

 

http://www.lib.utexa...7501-nm31-8.jpg



#16 jj2728

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 23:58

Which was the longer of the 2, the new circuit or the old one?

Just looking at the track map from Robert Daley's "Cars at Speed".



#17 bill moffat

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 22:16

Bumped this thread on a rather random basis - prompted by the sight of those LMP/GTE  cars flying into the sunset whilst negotiating the Indianapolis section of Le Mans circuit this year (first time I've missed being there myself in 15 years + ). All looks pretty frightening with spattered windscreens, smoke from over barbecued Merguez (not my fault this year) and big speed differentials.

 

However my question relates to Reims Gueux.  Legend/urban myth has it that in the early years of the 12 hour sports car race (?1926) the drivers had the same problem at sunrise (the race having started at midnight). Thillois was the sun - afflicted corner and legend states that the organisers erected a large velvet curtain in the escape road at sunrise to overcome this dazzle. 

 

Perhaps this is a bit of a "cock and bull" story, possibly fuelled by some of the region's best produce.  I have never seen a photo of this curtain which presumably would have needed to be relatively large - any ideas anyone ??



#18 john winfield

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 23:04

I'd never heard of the curtain Bill but, looking at a french website, it seems you're right. It was installed at Thillois in the late 1950s or early 1960s for the 12 Hour race.

 

I remember seeing something similar, but made of wood, installed at Nouveau Monde, Rouen in 1977. But that was nothing to do with sunlight; I think it was to stop people getting a free view of the racing!


Edited by john winfield, 27 June 2017 - 23:06.


#19 Tim Murray

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 02:10

Here's an earlier thread on the subject, but no-one (not even DCN) managed to come up with a (genuine) photo of the thing. Doug did suggest it was actually made up of a number of canvas strips hanging from a wire:

Velvet curtains at Reims

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#20 john winfield

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 08:19

Reference is made here to the rideau, hung between the extended terrasse of the auberge and the new gradins on the exit of Thillois. Still no picture but you can see, in the distance, the grand portique from which the curtain/strips would have hung. Strips seem practical, given that it was the escape road! The portique was soon replaced, in 1964, by the concrete BP passerelle.

 

http://forgottencirc...ms_histoire.htm

 

Edit.  Lots of interesting maps and photos here, showing the development of the circuit and its infrastructure.


Edited by john winfield, 28 June 2017 - 08:20.


#21 john winfield

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 08:40

This film of the 1964 12 Hours is quite fun, and makes reference to the curtain without showing any evidence. But there again the narrator calls Reims 'Raymes', and tells us that the cars are going to drive through Gueux village........

 

Good to hear Graham Hill, and see Bruce, Patty, Richie Ginther, Innes Ireland etc.. And a very nice winning Ferrari 250LM.

 



#22 Sisyphus

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 19:08

Interesting bit in the clip of the 1964 12 hours about Frank Gardner being shot at by a gendarme for nicking some petrol from a spectator's car!  A true story?  Doesn't really matter, as it is a good story!



#23 opplock

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 19:08

Wonderful film. The links at the end led me to a 57 second British Pathe film of the 1959 French Grand Prix won by "Manchester Dentist Tony Brooks". A man with a proper job to return to on Monday!



#24 Catalina Park

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Posted 01 July 2017 - 11:29

Curtains....
https://revslib.stan...log/pw095ch6366
https://revslib.stan...log/gd489vw2894
https://revslib.stan...log/bx258xq4312

#25 john winfield

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 15:32

 

Pull yourself together man.

 

Great research CP!  



#26 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 01:08

I trust the Mountain Man will post those links on the other thread...

Just to finalise things and get the credit therefor.