48 replies to this topic

[nordschleife]

Mark Hughes reports:

"A lap later Hamilton put an easy DRS pass on Massa into the chicane, Felipe quite compliant. It wasn’t so much about not fighting Williams’ own engine supplier, but simply recognising that fighting the inevitable was only going to slow him. That said, Williams needs the permission of Mercedes whenever it wishes to use the ‘overtake button’ and that permission tends to come more readily when the fight is with a Red Bull or a Ferrari than when it’s a Mercedes… Massa’s engine wasn’t in overtake mode at that moment, Hamilton’s was."

 

http://www.motorspor...lian-gp-report/

 

Have we just entered a Catchpole strip? Is MH wrong? Has the curtain been drawn back revealing the truth? This can't be!

 

Villagers, grab your torches!  

[John Player]

It's a joke, right?

[rf90]

Certainly it was an easy overtake for Hamilton because Massa was quite compliant, but I think the compliance was because Williams are purely intent on second place in the manufacturer's title. Seems obvious to me that they are not going "all out" for wins this year, and rather, that they are sort of "managing" things to an easy second place. I think their plan is to "bank" the second place in the manufacturer's table, bank the money, then be more adventurous next year.

[Risil]

No substitute for a works contract.

[JHSingo]

It has been a rare occurrence for anyone to be in a position to overtake a Mercedes this year anyway...

[P123]

No overtake setting without Mercs say so; and by that I'd expect it to be the Mercedes engineers within the Williams pit! Otherwise it's a bit of a clunky chain of command, for when they aren't battling the works team!

And should we be surprised? Sauber have often been Ferrari's poodle, Toro Rosso an open door for a passing Red Bull......

Edited by P123, 08 September 2014 - 22:24.

[nordschleife]

Clarification from the author:

 

Changes in engine modes that could effect reliability and/or fuel consumption require the permission of the team’s allocated Mercedes engineer. (This includes the ‘overtake’ mode which, despite the name, is also used defensively).It’s true of all customer teams, and not just Mercedes ones. The observation that permission seemed to come more readily when the other car was not a works Mercedes came from someone inside the team. When the pass was made Massa wasn’t in overtake mode, Hamilton was. I cannot go any further than that.

[garoidb]

Clarification from the author:

 

Changes in engine modes that could effect reliability and/or fuel consumption require the permission of the team’s allocated Mercedes engineer. (This includes the ‘overtake’ mode which, despite the name, is also used defensively).It’s true of all customer teams, and not just Mercedes ones. The observation that permission seemed to come more readily when the other car was not a works Mercedes came from someone inside the team. When the pass was made Massa wasn’t in overtake mode, Hamilton was. I cannot go any further than that.

 

Isn't this getting close to the old inter-team orders area of controversy from the past? I had assumed these were still illegal, but could be wrong.

 

However, this whole tricky area arises from there being a dominant engine manufacturer, with a works team and several customer teams, and those being the top three or four teams (in this particular race). While there was, in the past, a works Renault team supplying other competitive teams, that situation was never combined with this kind of dominance to my recollection. Has a similar or comparable situation arisen before?

[TomNokoe]

Not as embarrassing as the Toro Rossos pulling aside for Seb 2010-13, still sucks though

Edited by TomNokoe, 08 September 2014 - 22:40.

[Ross Stonefeld]

"I cannot go any further than that."

 

Can't or doesn't know?

 

Surely there are a whole host of engine modes that affect fuel consumption and reliability. Accelerating. Changing gear. Running in the slip stream. Doing another lap.

[OO7]

Clarification from the author:

 

Changes in engine modes that could effect reliability and/or fuel consumption require the permission of the team’s allocated Mercedes engineer. (This includes the ‘overtake’ mode which, despite the name, is also used defensively).It’s true of all customer teams, and not just Mercedes ones. The observation that permission seemed to come more readily when the other car was not a works Mercedes came from someone inside the team. When the pass was made Massa wasn’t in overtake mode, Hamilton was. I cannot go any further than that.

 

"The observation that permission seemed to come more readily when the other car was not a works Mercedes came from someone inside the team."

[Dolph]

Not as embarrassing as the Toro Rossos pulling aside for Seb 2010-13, still sucks though

 

 

 

How's that an embarrasment!?   The Toro Rossos are in a wider context the same team as Red Bull. 

[PlatenGlass]

Surely it's up to Williams if they want to risk a retirement by over-stressing the engine. OK, so it could affect Mercedes's image if their engines keep blowing up, but it's not like they're just handing out the engines to anyone, so surely it's enough to give out general guidance and trust the teams to be sensible. Anything more is micro-management and seems a step too far. It would be like Pirelli demanding that drivers get permission to outbrake someone in case they lock up and damage the tyres.

[Myrvold]

Certainly it was an easy overtake for Hamilton because Massa was quite compliant, but I think the compliance was because Williams are purely intent on second place in the manufacturer's title. Seems obvious to me that they are not going "all out" for wins this year, and rather, that they are sort of "managing" things to an easy second place. I think their plan is to "bank" the second place in the manufacturer's table, bank the money, then be more adventurous next year.

But at the same time. Didn't Massas engineer say something about "Not using the overtake button" around the time he was close to Hamilton?

[ANF]

Surely it's up to Williams if they want to risk a retirement by over-stressing the engine.

Unless the overtake mode is enabled and disabled by the engine engineers in the garage...

[superdelphinus]

as anyone actually overtaken a fully functional merc this season, aside from at the start?

Edited by superdelphinus, 08 September 2014 - 23:02.

[PlatenGlass]

Unless the overtake mode is enabled and disabled by the engine engineers in the garage...

I thought they weren't allowed to control the cars from the pits any more. I also seem to remember one of the Mercedes drivers using this mode without permission (I think it was Rosberg) in Spain possibly.

[RubalSher]

as anyone actually overtaken a fully functional merc this season, aside from at the start?

 

Rosberg in Canada & Hungary though he likely wasnt fully functional. Lewis was passed by Bottas in Germany but they were on different strategies, Bottas with a fresh set of boots whereas Lewis was on way older tyres.

[paulogman]

Look, when you're not the works team you get the short end of the stick.
Sucks, but better than being a works team with a **** engine

[aguri]

FIA should step in and make this practise illegal. Customers should receive the same spec power units as works teams to ensure a close grid.

 

If merc doesn't like it they can shun the 30 million euros a year from each customer team, and see how long their engine stays competitive with a greatly reduced budget.

[Tsarwash]

Smells like bullshit to me. Just how is the Merc engineer going to stop the driver car activating  overtake mode anyway ? If Massa was ordered by his team not to use a power boost to defend a position from a rival car, how many micro-seconds would it take him to run to the press ? 

Personally I think that all telemetry should be banned and the only communication between car and garage ought to be through the driver's radio. 

[Fonzey]

Williams have proved on a few occasions this year that they're not chasing marginal strategies or battling hard for wins, they're on a points haul crusade.

Shame, as they deserve a few wins this year - but whatever they're doing is clearly working in WCC terms.

[teejay]

No way in the world did that happen so Lewis could easily pass.

 

They know its not worth the fight.

 

Why bother - locking brakes or touching tyres and looking the fool.

[blub]

2 way telemetry (controlling any car function from the garage during the race) has been banned for years. I remember so well that race in Monaco when David Colthard’s McLaren was having oil issues, they fixed it from the pits with computers and a message to the car. You know what, that added nothing to the show and as usual the team explained nothing about it to help us get a kick from it. Mercedes can say this or that but in the end the driver has the wheel and the pedals.  

Tsarwash you have hit on the real issue which started to envelop F1 years ago and is now fully shrouding it in a darkness. F1 is sold as THE technology race series, nothing to small to spend millions on solving. From massive event trailer/Offices, massive driver pay, massive attention to small front wing details all, this cutting edge stuff costs money and now they have reached the final .001% of the detail work and thats just too expensive. Ban telemetry, sure why not, but F1 fans are like children, they just want it because they have it. The final .001% of technology development is getting F1 and the ticket sales nowhere. Ban telemetry, fine, but everyone will defend it because they don’t want their slice of the F1 pie banned next.

The unquestioned spending on some new idea is killing F1, it seems this  might even push whole teams out only to be replace with three cars from the top teams that spend stupid money on small things now. I like the technology too but it has transitioned to a kind of deadly addiction, F1 is going down with this obsession on spending. With teams now at the final .001% there is no area of a race team which wont benefit from more money, even if that benefit is largely hidden, as in, mostly about an illusory benefit which is more psychological then anything.

I say the FOM should pay teams nothing! Take away the money they spend and they wont spend it. Teams should get all their money from sponsors, thats all they get, the issues within F1 related to over spending would end overnight. You want spending caps, the FOM should cap the money teams get, make it no money or just 10 million, not enough to do any harm. This would allow smaller teams to be real partners in F1 which might improve the show. With 500 million dollars being cut from the FOM bills FOM could shift the income side by charging less to promotors of races, get more involved with social media (mostly BS but its a thing people wont shut up about) this would lessen the cost of tickets and more people would become fans which would make sponsors spend more on the teams etc.

I don’t believe in budget caps for any number of reasons, the best one is they wont work, as in, who is not going to cheat? A budget cap type of solution will only come when you strangle costs out of F1 by cutting off the drug each team is addicted to, FOM money. With that gone, all the stupid tech that does not aid measurably in performance would get no money and only the tech that gets the car around the track faster would survive. In fact you could free up most of the regulations knowing that teams cant afford to spend on it anyway, except if they sacrifice in other areas, its their choice. So we would also get much more variety in the technology struggle to boot.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Sauber and Ferrari used to have a similar deal back in the day; don't fight too hard with the parent company cars when they come up behind you to overtake.

[DarthWillie]

This is going to be the most unimpressive wdc ever

[Hyatt]

what a bullsh!t ... => check Austrian GP ....

[AnR]

Talk about a silly season.

[Maustinsj]

At least Mark Hughes could try and find out the difference between affect and effect.

[aguri]

Smells like bullshit to me. Just how is the Merc engineer going to stop the driver car activating  overtake mode anyway ? If Massa was ordered by his team not to use a power boost to defend a position from a rival car, how many micro-seconds would it take him to run to the press ? 

Personally I think that all telemetry should be banned and the only communication between car and garage ought to be through the driver's radio. 

 

Using overtake mode against the engineers orders would likely be breach of contract. 

[Jamiednm]

Don't believe this for one second. Next silly rumour please...

[Sash1]

I guess McLaren never gets that permission then!?

[jestaudio]

I wonder how many that are upset now were quite happy to see the Torro Roso lads practically drive off the track and make a picnic for Vettel despite allegedly not being the same team, or the Ferrari engined cars play trulli train for Schumacher and co,

[redreni]

Isn't this getting close to the old inter-team orders area of controversy from the past? I had assumed these were still illegal, but could be wrong.

However, this whole tricky area arises from there being a dominant engine manufacturer, with a works team and several customer teams, and those being the top three or four teams (in this particular race). While there was, in the past, a works Renault team supplying other competitive teams, that situation was never combined with this kind of dominance to my recollection. Has a similar or comparable situation arisen before?

Yes, fixing in sport is not allowed. It doesn't matter if there's a specific regulation about it or not. There's a rule against acts prejudicial to the interests of the competition. That's why the suspected collusion between Williams and Mclaren at Jerez in 1997 was investigated afterwards by the WMSC.

Hughes' source's observation doesn't necessarily mean Mercedes is preventing Williams from racing them, though. The correlation he has noticed could be a coincidence. And we have to assume it is, because otherwise they'd be in hot water.

[AlmightyGod]

All this fuss over nothing. Mercedes finished 20+ seconds up the road. Overtake button won't make up the 0.5s they were losing per lap.

 

On a lighter note, what button did Massa use to pressure Rosberg off the track?

Edited by AlmightyGod, 09 September 2014 - 09:11.

[Nonesuch]

It is not at all surprising that the teams check their use of the 'overtake' mode with the engineers responsible for the engines. That is to be expected, and is the result of regulations that require teams to use only a few engines per season. The teams need to treat these engines more carefully than when they had more freedom to design, use and push their equipment.

Hughes claim that 'permission seemed to come more readily when the other car was not a works Mercedes' is interesting, but raises more questions than it answers. Is such permission required for the 'overtake' mode to work? If the 'overtake' mode is not available without it - that would certainly be odd, especially from a technical (telemetry) standpoint. Are their contractual/legal issues concerning the teams ignoring engineers of the engine manufacturers?

 

These insinuating claims, especially when Hughes doesn't care to substantiate them with something more than saying he was told by 'someone inside the team' are not at all helpful to the general public.

Edited by Nonesuch, 09 September 2014 - 09:28.

[Jon83]

It would have happened anyway (Hamilton passing Massa), but I am far from convinced by the story anyway.

[Nustang70]

Mercedes spent three years finishing behind Mclaren.  If they cared that much about intra-engine position fights, surely it would've come up before the season where they've dominated the Constructors' Championship and quite publicly allowed the drivers in their own team to fight each other (sometimes to their detriment).  

[RedRabbit]

Sauber and Ferrari used to have a similar deal back in the day; don't fight too hard with the parent company cars when they come up behind you to overtake.

 

And why would that have changed? I'll of course refer you to Perez in Monza 2012 denying a double podium to Ferrari in a Sauber as well as Hulkenburg holding back Alonso in India (I think) last year for lap after lap after lap.

[Coops3]

Have to say, if true this is cheating IMO.

[HoldenRT]

Whether it's cheating or not, if it's true, it's pretty weak.  It's the kind of thing you'd have expected from Ferrari 5 years ago.

 

The idea is to go racing.  But if it comes so easy.. where is the rewarding part of it?  If everyone pulled over at the start of the race and let you through and why bother trying to win?  It's a bit hollow.  And not something you expect from a team that has brutally dominated the first half of the season.

 

If it's true..

[ANF]

I thought they weren't allowed to control the cars from the pits any more. I also seem to remember one of the Mercedes drivers using this mode without permission (I think it was Rosberg) in Spain possibly.

That was my understanding too. But I've heard quite a few drivers complaining about power problems this season and race engineers replying that they are looking into it. And all of a sudden, some minutes later, the problems have been fixed. I'm not sure if the engineers are simply providing a workaround, which the driver then has to enter on the steering wheel, or if they can manage some things in the power unit software from the pits.

[Buttoneer]

I think Obi Offiah has the right of it.  The article quotes team insiders and used some prettyy woolly language based upon impressions rather than empirical evidence.  I think it's easy to expect it to be the case that the Mercedes engineers are still rooting for the works team, but unless Williams have been measuring the time it's pretty weak evidence.

 

It's just confirmation bias at work.

 

I wonder how many that are upset now were quite happy to see the Torro Roso lads practically drive off the track and make a picnic for Vettel despite allegedly not being the same team, or the Ferrari engined cars play trulli train for Schumacher and co,

 

I wonder how many that are OK with it now were quite upset to see the Torro Roso lads practically drive off the track and make a picnic for Vettel despite allegedly not being the same team, or the Ferrari engined cars play trulli train for Schumacher and co,

 

Or we could discuss the issue rather than contributors?

[aguri]

I think Obi Offiah has the right of it.  The article quotes team insiders and used some prettyy woolly language based upon impressions rather than empirical evidence.  I think it's easy to expect it to be the case that the Mercedes engineers are still rooting for the works team, but unless Williams have been measuring the time it's pretty weak evidence.

 

It's just confirmation bias at work.

 

 

I wonder how many that are OK with it now were quite upset to see the Torro Roso lads practically drive off the track and make a picnic for Vettel despite allegedly not being the same team, or the Ferrari engined cars play trulli train for Schumacher and co,

 

Or we could discuss the issue rather than contributors?

 

Even if the article is fabricated - the fact remains that there is potential for works teams to exploit a situation like this under the current regulations and the FIA should do something about it before it becomes a real problem. 

[Buttoneer]

It's not going to be fabricated, but the point is that the 'impression' the Williams engineers have is not based on empirical evidence.  Or at least, not according to the article.

[Hollow]

It's not the first time that happens but people need to wait for official confirmation to believe it. Ha!

[rhukkas]

If it wasn't for Merc Williams wouldn't be in the position they are in. I don't see a problem with it. You play the game.

[rodlamas]

That's why the whole set of rules has to change.

 

Engines have to last for 5 races, they are very expensive so you have 3-4 engines manufactures that control the sport. It is quite obvious that you cannot leave you thumb on the boost button forever, teams will know how to use it in order for the main team to get a 1-2 and all the other cars all behind.

 

But this has been happening forever. Remember Norberto Fontana back in 1997 when in Jerez blocking Villeneuve after orders by Jean Todt on a Sauber-FERRARI.

[redreni]

Surely it's up to Williams if they want to risk a retirement by over-stressing the engine. OK, so it could affect Mercedes's image if their engines keep blowing up, but it's not like they're just handing out the engines to anyone, so surely it's enough to give out general guidance and trust the teams to be sensible. Anything more is micro-management and seems a step too far. It would be like Pirelli demanding that drivers get permission to outbrake someone in case they lock up and damage the tyres.

 

That's the key point that had my eyebrows raised when I read the story. You'd think the engine supplier's technical people would be able to advise, but not instruct.

 

Thinking this through (and simplifying for the sake of making the point - I'm aware from reading the PU count thread how complicated this stuff really gets), with the requirement for five engines to last the season, as I understand it, if a car burns through its allocation of engines and has no servicable engines left from within its allocation, it does not have to miss the remainder of the season. It can use a sixth and seventh engine if necessary, but it will be penalised accordingly. There would obviously be a cost associated with providing extra engines, but as far as I know the customer teams pay a fixed price for a year's supply, so in that event the manufacturer swallows the extra cost, as well as the reputational damage, just as they should if their engines are unreliable.

 

So it's easy to see why an engine supplier would not want its customer to be tempted, in pursuit of a big result at an engine-breaker of a track, to have full, unfettered control of engine maps. The problem is, when the engine supplier has its own works team, and the customer has its car ahead of one of the works cars...

 

I'm not saying anything that shouldn't happen happened in this case, and I certainly don't think Massa was ever likely to finish ahead of Hamilton when he didn't even have the pace to stay with Rosberg, but it's easy to see the potential for circumstances to arise where a sensible, fair-minded observer without a tin foil hat would smell a rat.