67 replies to this topic

[Paco]

Not talking about financial health of teams, restrictions etc,

Just that the overall product needs to be better... And that the Sunday race is just the feather in the cap.. And that it's about full fan engagement..

For me.. That where testing, all out qualifying, teams and supplier developing and not forced to play second fiddle just because you got the design wrong in dec and not allowed to improve during the season, drivers free'd up to drive and speak as they want.. F1 fans are different than most other fans... It's not just about the drivers, where in all those things above don't matter... They do matter in f1 and we've been striped of that for years now...

Instead of banning testing and freezes, they should have embraced it and done more to promote it!!! I have always said we need more coverage to teams, between event going on since last race.. More access... Not less. A weekly or bi weekly show on tv just like a magazine... Covering all aspects of f1... Driver lives, tech, race management behind the scenes, how road car benefit, politics.. Yadda yadda

Edited by Paco, 11 September 2014 - 11:26.

[DaddyCool]

F1 bosses - whoever that might refer to - can all go and f*** themselves as far as I am concerned. If only I had a nickel for every time they said this "we must listen to the fans" bullshit, only to unanimously vote on standing restarts and double points 2 weeks later.

[MP422]

I'm super pumped for standing restarts.

[BullHead]

F1 bosses - whoever that might refer to - can all go and f*** themselves as far as I am concerned. If only I had a nickel for every time they said this "we must listen to the fans" bullshit, only to unanimously vote on standing restarts and double points 2 weeks later.

Yep, did he even mention double points? Until someone seriously brings that up, they are simply talking as you say bullshit.

[Thomas99]

Bernie promised the removal of standing restarts, is that a no go?

[Jon83]

So what is Dennis doing to contribute to making this product better? Apart from talking?

[Tourgott]

F1 bosses - whoever that might refer to - can all go and f*** themselves as far as I am concerned. If only I had a nickel for every time they said this "we must listen to the fans" bullshit, only to unanimously vote on standing restarts and double points 2 weeks later.

 

This!

 

[DaddyCool]

I have just listed the 2 biggest offenders in recent times. Fans will complain just about everything and leaders are right to ignore half of that you can't please everyone.

 

But when there's a massive, gargantuan public backlash against rules like double points from both casual and more serious fans, pundits and former F1 personnel, then maybe it would be nice to lend an ear.

Edited by DaddyCool, 11 September 2014 - 11:58.

[noikeee]

I think the problem is the sheer constant desperation in trying to make the sport "better".

[SenorSjon]

Bernie says a lot of things. The sprinkler idea mid '00 seems as the least evil we've got. We all know now that when he turns the sprinklers on, there would be a SC.

 

Just make a rain setup mandatory. 

[Clatter]

I agree with the sentiment, but what is McLaren as a team doing to achieve what he says? In my years of attending GP's only BMW with their pit-lane has really done anything to engage with the fans.

[Nonesuch]

For me.. That where testing, all out qualifying, teams and supplier developing and not forced to play second fiddle just because you got the design wrong in dec and not allowed to improve during the season

 

This is an extremely important point as far as I'm concerned. F1 supposedly allows teams to create their own cars, but the FIA makes it enormously difficult to improve them during a season. The same FIA is then surprised when teams spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on the few minuscule components that have managed to escape the FIA's stifling regulations.

 

Not to mention that locking in the running order for the better part of a year is about as opposite to an exciting and uncertain technical competition as one can imagine. The last 27 Grand Prix' were won by either a Red Bull or a Mercedes.

 

F1 bosses - whoever that might refer to - can all go and f*** themselves as far as I am concerned.

 

Agreed, every proposal from the teams that does not start with the cancellation of the Double Points Bonanza is not worthy of the attention of the press or viewers.
 

Edited by Nonesuch, 11 September 2014 - 12:25.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I agree with the sentiment, but what is McLaren as a team doing to achieve what he says? In my years of attending GP's only BMW with their pit-lane has really done anything to engage with the fans.

 

Hey man, they're on social media. Get with the times.

[KWSN - DSM]

Reacting 10 years after the slide happened does not make one a voice of reason, makes one a Team Manager seeing the writing on the wall even for his own team and now suddenly interested in 'making F1 relevant' again. Not a single person in any sort of power within the F1 fraternity can be counted on to act with reason for time being, even the small team have voted on rules, regulations, funds distribution which now have them wavering on the cliff.

 

If Moon and Stars align poorly we could see

 

Caterham gone

Marussia gone

Sauber gone

Lotus gone

 

At start of next season, I do not think it will come to that but the fact it is possible should be the real wake up call for the sport as a whole, which it clearly is not. Their solution is banning certain radio messages, trying artificial amplifying trumpets, double points, races in far away countries with zero auto-racing tradition, chopping traditional races at the knees, sanitized race tracks, cutting balls of race tracks, penalize real racing between drivers.

 

No there is zero reason in F1 currently.

 

[PaulTodd]

It never seizes to amaze me that they keep changing the sport for all the wrong reasons then wonder why fans are walking away so they add even more stupid rules to try to get them back.

 

I don't care what anybody says, this season the cars are the worst they have ever been. Sure the racing is fun at times but as a spectacle they fail in a huge way. On SKY TV they talked about the idea of making Fridays more interesting with a quick sprint race?????  Part of being a Racing fan is just enjoying watching the cars and falling in love with the way they look and sound. Now we have goofy wings, vacuum sounding engines, DRS overtaking that's just really a pass by and boring tracks and you don't step back in amazement with the 2014 spec.

 

That's before you even look at the rules! Honestly I love Formula One and I doubt I would ever miss a race but it's in a real bad shape I understand why the average fan would have nothing to do with it.

[Cacarella]

All the new ridiculous rule changes are the result of cost cutting measures.  With these measures in place, the only way to try to make the racing more

exciting is with artificial gimmicks.  It's the only way to try and change the running order after the season starts and one team is more dominant then the rest.

 

Even with these measures, they still could lose three teams next year.  So they dumb the sport down more, give everyone a standard suspension (remove FRIC),

so that the weaker teams stay alive.   Maybe these kinds of restrictions are whats keeping Honda, Toyota, BMW, and VW away?

 

Just take Williams as an example.  This year they're reporting losses of 20mil, and their reason is they spent more money to make the car competitive.

The smaller teams want the rules changed to stifle the larger teams spending, which equals slower cars, less fan engagement (testing), less technological innovation,

and so on... and so on....

 

THATS why Bernie wants the smaller teams out, cause then it'd be a real racing series again, albiet with only a few teams fielding 3 or four cars.

 

 

 

Edit to ad: and Ron Dennis is talking out of his ass.  Let's have more fan engagement but charge them $1000 to come to a race.  (at least there's a slim chance

you'll get someone famous to sign a piece of paper for you)

Edited by Cacarella, 11 September 2014 - 13:30.

[mclarensmps]

This!

 

 

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

[PaulTodd]

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

I see Irony but then the guy has a point. Not that many people sat around him eh

Edited by PaulTodd, 11 September 2014 - 13:36.

[Option1]

This is an extremely important point as far as I'm concerned. F1 supposedly allows teams to create their own cars, but the FIA makes it enormously difficult to improve them during a season. The same FIA is then surprised when teams spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on the few minuscule components that have managed to escape the FIA's stifling regulations.

 

Not to mention that locking in the running order for the better part of a year is about as opposite to an exciting and uncertain technical competition as one can imagine. The last 27 Grand Prix' were won by either a Red Bull or a Mercedes.

Hmmm, I'm wracking my brain but I can't remember a season where a team that wasn't at the pointy end at the beginning of the season suddenly became a serious contender midway through the year.  And when I say "a season" I'm talking all the way back into times before even what seems these days to be the beginning of F1 for some; i.e. the 1990s. 

 

To put it another way, I agree that it's idiotic restricting testing the way they do, but I'm not sure it ever made much difference even when things were freer. 

Oh, and I also agree about the massive, ridiculous spending on miniscule parts all to possibly gain 0.00001 of a sec.

 

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

Nope.

 

Neil

Edited by Option1, 11 September 2014 - 13:40.

[pdac]

I have just listed the 2 biggest offenders in recent times. Fans will complain just about everything and leaders are right to ignore half of that you can't please everyone.

 

But when there's a massive, gargantuan public backlash against rules like double points from both casual and more serious fans, pundits and former F1 personnel, then maybe it would be nice to lend an ear.

 

No, they should address those complaints with reasoned arguments for why it is not appropriate to make changes to satisfy them.

[kraduk]

The only way I can see the sport going forward is for Bernie and his money train to go and for one or two of the big teams to leave/go under. If we remove all this big business from the sport, things might get better. Not many children from average backgrounds goto the British GP now I bet when taking a family will cost you best part of a grand if not more. There is a gap in the market, and I can see it getting stolen by something like formula E.

[Frank Tuesday]

I think the problem is the sheer constant desperation in trying to make the sport "better".

 

They aren't trying to make the "sport" "better".  They are trying to make the business more profitable.  More fans = more money.

[KWSN - DSM]

They aren't trying to make the "sport" "better".  They are trying to make the business more profitable.  More fans = more money.

 

But there are LESS fans, so they have obviously NOT done better nor profitable.

 

[FredF1]

This would be the same Ron Dennis who started the trend of putting up screens across the pit garage to block anyone looking in until he was forced to stop doing it by Bernie? That Ron Dennis? He truly is on the side of the fans isn't he?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Profits are probably up, for now.

[FredF1]

Isn't he also the same Ron Dennis who did so much to bring open internet access to McLaren fans by, err, putting their website behind a paywall? "No access for the poverty-stricken F1 fans" says Ron - "Go support some loser team who gives it away for free."

[Ross Stonefeld]

I don't remember that at all?

[FredF1]

I don't remember that at all?

It was a while ago now 2000-2002 period I think. McLaren's site forced you to subscribe to some sort of fanclub to be allowed in. There was certainly a "Pay up, no freebies here" aspect to it.

[Nonesuch]

Hmmm, I'm wracking my brain but I can't remember a season where a team that wasn't at the pointy end at the beginning of the season suddenly became a serious contender midway through the year.  And when I say "a season" I'm talking all the way back into times before even what seems these days to be the beginning of F1 for some; i.e. the 1990s.

 

The step from midfield to race winner has indeed always been big, probably even in the days that teams would introduce new cars halfway through a season and race its iterations for the better part of two years.

 

But there's some room between that and a development race that allows teams to close gaps. You don't always need to have the fastest car to win, just be close enough to have a chance.

 

For example in recent times, and ignoring the 2009 season, I think McLaren became a much stronger team throughout 2005.

 

Edit; I just realized that is almost 10 years ago. Oh dear.

Edited by Nonesuch, 11 September 2014 - 14:40.

[naiku]

Let's have more fan engagement but charge them $1000 to come to a race.  (at least there's a slim chance you'll get someone famous to sign a piece of paper for you)

This is a bigger problem for me than the bullsh*t rules. I have 2 boys, and would love to take them to an F1 race, one of my best memories from being a child was my Dad taking me and my brothers and sisters to Silverstone to watch F1. The closest GP to me now would likely be the USGP, for general admission plus parking I am looking at $700. If I wanted to sit in a grandstand, then I am closer to $2,000 (there may be cheaper grandstand seats, I just looked at one and picked the lowest priced option). You want fans to be more involved, start charging more reasonable prices to attend a race. 

 

I should add, I fully realize why the tracks have to charge high pricing. 

Edited by naiku, 11 September 2014 - 14:52.

[Seanspeed]

I'm super pumped for standing restarts.

Mods, ban this person.

[Tourgott]

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

 

Depends on what you mean. A banner which says "ugly circuits" at a classic track? Maybe this seems to be ironic but just at a first glance. Even the classic tracks which are left have been worsened. E.g. Parabolica, last turn in Barcelona or complete Hockenheim. So why should they not express what they (what we all) think?

Edited by Tourgott, 11 September 2014 - 15:05.

[Craven Morehead]

The one constant in Formula One is "Change'. I don't know why people have such a problem with it.

[pdac]

Profits are probably up, for now.

 

Ah, but for which companies?

[pdac]

The one constant in Formula One is "Change'. I don't know why people have such a problem with it.

 

'cause I'm an old geezer now.

[king_crud]

I must have missed it, is there an interview with Ron or something? What has he been saying?

[F1matt]

As far as I am concerned people can say what they like but F1 needs a revolution, and until Bernie has gone it won't get one. Only when Bernie steps down or dies can F1 truly move forward,

 

Apologies if I have peed on anyone's bonfire!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Ah, but for which companies?

 

FOM and CVC, the only ones that seem to matter.

[Frank Tuesday]

But there are LESS fans, so they have obviously NOT done better nor profitable.

 

Which is why they are so concerned about improving the "show".  They have no concern for the "sport" at all.  All they care about is doing anything to get people watching F1, no matter how artificial or how far removed the principles of fair sport.  I'd rather watch an F1 that adhered to fair sporting principles in which the teams had budgets of $50M than the ridiculous high budget "spectacle" we have now. 

 

Maybe we've stumbled onto the key to make F1 cheaper.  Scare all the fans away until sponsors aren't willing to collectively spend billions of dollars a year on F1.       

[yasushi888]

The one constant in Formula One is "Change'. I don't know why people have such a problem with it.

maybe because its a change for the worse?

[Brackets]

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

Triple irony, no less:

1) the banner being up at monza;
2) the banner having been put up by paying (?) visitors to an F1-race;
3) the banner bitching about feeble stuff such as the look and sound of cars and tracks, when it really should be all about the racing which is better than it has been for at least a decade;

(On this forum, I often feel alone on reason No.3…)

[Tourgott]

Triple irony, no less:

1) the banner being up at monza;
2) the banner having been put up by paying (?) visitors to an F1-race;
3) the banner bitching about feeble stuff such as the look and sound of cars and tracks, when it really should be all about the racing which is better than it has been for at least a decade;

(On this forum, I often feel alone on reason No.3…)

 

1.)             #32            

2.) Tickets bought long before they introduced the horrible V6, the ridiculous penis noses and the tarred Parabolica?

3.) This assertion does not become truer by constant repetition. 

[DaddyCool]

3) the banner bitching about feeble stuff such as the look and sound of cars and tracks, when it really should be all about the racing which is better than it has been for at least a decade;

(On this forum, I often feel alone on reason No.3…)

 

I watch F1 first and foremost for the racing, however that still does not change the fact the cars are fugly for no apparent reason as the 2009 aero package clearly failed its objective (more passes, less aero dependency). 

[Option1]

1.)             #32            

2.) Tickets bought long before they introduced the horrible V6, the ridiculous penis noses and the tarred Parabolica?

3.) This assertion does not become truer by constant repetition. 

Given your assertion about the "horrible V6" you would do well to pay heed yourself to your very own point 3. 

 

Neil

[KWSN - DSM]

Which is why they are so concerned about improving the "show".  They have no concern for the "sport" at all.  All they care about is doing anything to get people watching F1, no matter how artificial or how far removed the principles of fair sport.  I'd rather watch an F1 that adhered to fair sporting principles in which the teams had budgets of $50M than the ridiculous high budget "spectacle" we have now. 

 

Maybe we've stumbled onto the key to make F1 cheaper.  Scare all the fans away until sponsors aren't willing to collectively spend billions of dollars a year on F1.       

 

We may or may not be in agreement, not quite sure. My contention is that they are diluting the 'show' they are diluting the 'sport', thus viewers, followers and fans are leaving in high numbers. If they are concerned about profits and get more people to watch they should drop all the gimmicks and bring back a non spec'd formula with no mandated engine designs, tire manufacturer, artificial overtaking, hap-hazzardly stewarding, penalizing racing, cutting balls of tracks.

 

Outside the Powers of F1, most can see that all they do is make it worse, even journalists writing for Autosport have started giving us stories highlighting ill's and woes this form,um have debated for the past 10 years, some of the solutions they come up with now are the same this forum have suggested for 10 years.

 

Problem with F1 is that the actual players just do not get it.

 

[FNG]

the 2009 aero package clearly failed its objective (more passes, less aero dependency). 

I have to disagree. I have never before seen cars able to follow each other so easily through turns. That was damn near impossible pre 2009. Yes the cars are hideous and sound even worse but the objective was achieved. You can argue the cars are too easy to drive now but I don't think you can argue the racing isn't better. Just watch some races from 2000-2001. Yes the cars were more powerful and sounded way better and they were harder to drive but the races were basically trains of cars stuck behind each other with barely any passing.

 

I say ditch DRS and give me screaming engines with more power and I think it would be a great formula.

[ardbeg]

Just share the revenue in a fair manner and the sport will become better. There is a huge difference between "We need to find a way to improve F1 while still giving all the money to the rich" and "We need to improve F1"

[Tourgott]

Given your assertion about the "horrible V6" you would do well to pay heed yourself to your very own point 3.

Neil

Since this is not my assertion I do not think I have to. Or did I miss the banners with "Great racing, thx FIA"?

[charly0418]

I'll reserve my judgment on double points when I see everyone jumping of joy for the Abu Dhabi race and its potential

[JHSingo]

1.)             #32            

2.) Tickets bought long before they introduced the horrible V6, the ridiculous penis noses and the tarred Parabolica?

3.) This assertion does not become truer by constant repetition. 

 

You know, if the noise is as important as you clearly think it is, and is supposedly one of the reasons fewer people are attending races/watching on TV, I have to ask this question.

 

Why, in the early 2000s, did track side attendance/viewing figures also suffer a sharp fall? I mean, the cars had those wonderfully noisy V10s people keep banging on about...

 

Maybe it's because one driver was totally dominant, and the racing was often exceptionally dull? I was reading an article in the latest F1 Racing magazine where it was recounting Schumacher's 91 victories. Apparently, the 2002 San Marino Grand Prix featured one on track overtake in the entire race. If F1 is in bad shape now in terms of the racing or whatever, then I think I can live with it.