37 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

This weekend the Formula E Series will start. I like the series very much, it's an interesting technology, especially because the second season onwards the teams are allowed to build their own cars.

 

But many race fans are not very happy: No sound, no fuel smelling and so on.

 

I think: There must be series for Formula E fans and for fans which want to see big engined cars as in former days.

 

Why is there no Formula Racing series with big engines (V12 or something like that)? I think their might be big interest for fans and competitors.

 

Is it all just because of money?

[jimjimjeroo]

Because big engines are not relevant to modern day motoring the Big Bang small engines are

[Rob]

A new Formula 5000 could be quite fun.

[scheivlak]

My definition of a big engine would be an engine with quite a big cubic capacity.

The number of cylinders is completely irrelevant (remember 12-cylinder 1.5 litre F1 cars? Or the Honda 5 cylinder 125cc motorbike?)

 

GP2 cars (4.0 litre) and FR 3.5 cars have quite a big engine IMHO.

[Fastcake]

Superleague Formula tried that, and failed quite rapidly.  There's little interest in forming another series, and unless you're trying something radically different like Formula E, no one will be willing to put the money up.

[PaulTodd]

We did have a Formula, it was called Formula 1 and back in 2005 we had V10 

[Lennat]

It's not really about BIG engines to me, it's about high revving, high power naturaly aspirated V10/V12 engines.

 

I'm only speaking for myself, but I would start caring about a new series if it had cars as fast and powerful/light as F1 at its peak. Imagine if they ran at the same tracks as F1 and started beating the old lap records... I would care about such a series. Oh, and no stupid football/national team crap please...

[wrcva]

When I think of big engine this bad boy comes to mind.  917/30 (1973) 5.374-litre 12 cylinder (90.0 x 70.4 mm) twin-turbo that could produce 1,580 bhp (1,180 kW) in qualifying tune, raced with around 1,100 bhp (820 kW) at 7,800 rpm.  0-62 mph (100 km/h) in 1.9 seconds, 0-100 mph (160 km/h) in 3.9 seconds, 0-200 mph (320 km/h) in 10.9 seconds, and on to a top speed of more than 260 mph (420 km/h) - source

 

 

[V8 Fireworks]

 

Why is there no Formula Racing series with big engines (V12 or something like that)? I think their might be big interest for fans and competitors.

 

Is it all just because of money?

 

Like your username they are in history....

 

Open wheelers with big US small block V8 motors 

 

 

Super league formula... 4.2L V12...

 

 

 

empty grand stands???  eventual failure 

 

Anyhow, big engines are heavy.  Even the modern 4.2L V12 designed for SLF had a weight of 140kg... considerably heavier than the 95 kg 2.4L V8 used by F1.

[Frank Grimes]

Like your username they are in history....

Open wheelers with big US small block V8 motors

https://www.youtube....h?v=3YRnyibJyjg
.

Pushrods forever!!!

[f1RacingForever]

Because tree huggers around the world make it hard for people to have a good time. It's politically incorrect to support gas guzzlers which is silly when you consider how little racing contributes to the massive carbon footprint.

[f1RacingForever]

Because big engines are not relevant to modern day motoring the Big Bang small engines are

Neither are huge wings, cars capable of transporting only a single person or slick tires but those aren't controversial. I honestly can't think of a single mainstream technology that is prevalent on road cars that originated from F1.

[Thomas99]

If you allowed F1 engines to be 4000cc in capacity they would make 1500hp or more.

[Peter0Scandlyn]

Pushrods forever!!!

 

Sure. Bring back the 'Beast'.

[Docc]

If you allowed F1 engines to be 4000cc in capacity they would make 1500hp or more.

Isn't that why they have brakes and a driver..and wings..

 

How much excess power is not relevant..who drives it..how..

 

A limit on fuel though per race..and a driver that doesn't exceed capabilites of platform or talent..

 

Like years ago..

[Scotracer]

Isn't that why they have brakes and a driver..and wings..

 

How much excess power is not relevant..who drives it..how..

 

A limit on fuel though per race..and a driver that doesn't exceed capabilites of platform or talent..

 

Like years ago..

 

The problem isn't what the driver can handle, it's in the event of a crash at very high speed (say a component failure or impact or blow-out). Kinetic energy squares with speed so the amount of energy to dissipate at 350km/h (the current rough VMax) is 1.63MJ and at 370km/h (easily reachable if you have over 1000BHP) is 3.64MJ. More than double! The tracks can't handle that - what gravel traps we have can't cope with it, the distance of tarmac runoff can't dissipate it and certainly the barriers wont be able to stop it.

[aguri]

Because tree huggers around the world make it hard for people to have a good time. It's politically incorrect to support gas guzzlers which is silly when you consider how little racing contributes to the massive carbon footprint.

 

Tree huggers have nothing to do with it.

 

The manufacturers pushed for the smaller turbo engines because it is closer to what they offer in road cars. 

[Brother Fox]

And why aren't there any series racing steam powered buggies?

And candlestick making competitions

Don't get me started on the demise if the Papyrus Making Championship

[V8 Fireworks]

 I honestly can't think of a single mainstream technology that is prevalent on road cars that originated from F1.

 

Ahhh...

 

 

16 years later...

 

 

I think VW Golf qualifies as a mainstream vehicle.  Yup.... 

[V8 Fireworks]

The tracks can't handle that - what gravel traps we have can't cope with it, the distance of tarmac runoff can't dissipate it and certainly the barriers wont be able to stop it.

 

I agree but the cars do not need to be 5 seconds a lap slower than 2004...  Why not peg them at 2004 speeds by making suitable tweaks to maximum boost / air restrictors, year in, year out to keep the speeds approximately constant at the acceptable 2004 level that the tracks are designed to handle?

[Collombin]

If you allowed F1 engines to be 4000cc in capacity they would make 1500hp or more.

Possibly, but not without a turbo.

[tomjol]

Because tree huggers around the world make it hard for people to have a good time. It's politically incorrect to support gas guzzlers which is silly when you consider how little racing contributes to the massive carbon footprint.

 

I'm really quite staggered that people are still peddling this line about the size of racing's carbon footprint.

 

This argument has been going on for decades now, could you please try to understand it? 

[K20a]

If you allowed F1 engines to be 4000cc in capacity they would make 1500hp or more.

They can do that with the current 1600cc motors..

[HistoryFan]

Because big engines are not relevant to modern day motoring the Big Bang small engines are

 

Yes. but must it always be relevant? Of course for engine manufactures like Mercedes, Renault and so on. But I'm sure there would be privat engine builders like Hart or Judd in former days to build engines for such a series. Because they earn money for doing that. Such a series would not be for being relevant but for having fun! Racing should also be fun...

 

[HistoryFan]

Superleague Formula tried that, and failed quite rapidly.  There's little interest in forming another series, and unless you're trying something radically different like Formula E, no one will be willing to put the money up.

 

I think Superleague failed because of it's concept with football teams not because of their engines...
 

[GreenMachine]

Kinetic energy squares with speed ...

Nope. E=MV²

[HistoryFan]

A new Formula 5000 could be quite fun.

 

Why did the F5000 die?
 

[pdac]

Engines became bigger and bigger with one aim in mind - to deliver the fastest car. If you're racing such cars, then you reach a point where other factors come into play (weight, for example). And then, if you're racing those cars around circuits yet more factors come into play (e.g. what is the maximum safe speed around a corner; how much runoff area is required to accommodate those speeds).

 

The result is that you end up with a point where there is no benefit in going any bigger for the application. If you're after a big engine, look for an area where a big engine would be an advantage to the car ...

 

[GSiebert]

especially because the second season onwards the teams are allowed to build their own cars.

Pretty sure that won't happen. Too expensive for such a small series.

[Goron3]

Pretty sure that won't happen. Too expensive for such a small series.

The whole point is to allow the manufactueres to develop the battery from season 2 onwards. The series wouldn't make any sense if the technology and cars were frozen...The developments will then effect road car use, particularly in centres.

[GSiebert]

The series wouldn't make any sense if the technology and cars were frozen.

Still they started it like that.

I'll believe it when I'll see it.

[Fastcake]

I think Superleague failed because of it's concept with football teams not because of their engines...

Football wasn't the only selling point. The V12 engines were hyped up as being bigger and louder than F1 in an attempt to find an audience. The football team concept was always daft, but they could have ditched it and turned into a normal racing series if there were still people interested in the cars and racing.

It's also worth considering that there is no real reason why a big, loud engine is necessarily the best tool for the job. You may want to hear them, but that doesn't mean anyone would want to race them given the choice.

[F1matt]

Probably the same reason they stopped developing steam engines when the combustion engine was perfected.

There is no appetite for big engines anymore, the current V12 engines used by Ferrari and Lamborghini in their road cars will probably be the last and replaced by V8 turbos with recoverable energy and start/stop for better economy.

I have a solution for you and once you try it you will love it, get to your local circuit and watch the historic cars, cheap entry, easy going paddocks, amazing machinery (with big engines) and some of the drivers ring the necks out of them. Bliss!

[morrino]

It's not really about BIG engines to me, it's about high revving, high power naturaly aspirated V10/V12 engines.

 

I'm only speaking for myself, but I would start caring about a new series if it had cars as fast and powerful/light as F1 at its peak. Imagine if they ran at the same tracks as F1 and started beating the old lap records... I would care about such a series. Oh, and no stupid football/national team crap please...

 

How much time do you think a Formula can live beating lap records before the need to modify the circuit for safety reasons? You'll end up with kilometers of run off areas all over the place.

[maverick69]

Yep. A modern day F5000 may well work provided costs were kept well down (good luck with that, obviously!).

 

For example: You can only use sealed LS9 crate engines - no mods other than a dry sump. Xtrac or Hewland H box. You can then plonk the engine in any single seater chassis you can get hold of. Absolutely anything..... but you're only allowed to modify it for the engine and gearbox installation. No mucking around with the aero design..... other than the obvious hacking of the engine cover etc.

 

F6000!

 

Rooooaaarrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!

Edited by maverick69, 12 September 2014 - 12:25.

[Scotracer]

Nope. E=MV²

 

That's what I said...

 

It's an exponential relationship.

[Kerch]

That's what I said...

 

It's an exponential relationship.

 

You're right it squares with speed, but that's not exponential.

[f1RacingForever]

[quote name="V8 Fireworks" post="6878723" timestamp="1410505304"]

Ahhh...

https://www.youtube....h?v=aCM5wMfXKzA

16 years later...

https://www.youtube....h?v=kA7odlXCqMU

I think VW Golf qualifies as a mainstream vehicle. Yup.... [/quote?.
Well according to wiki, "The first dual clutch transmission s derived from Porsche in house development for 962 racing cars in the 1980's. I realize tech gets massively improved once it's been put through it's paces in f1, although most of it ex) ceramic brakes, carbon fiber chassis, dual clutch is only used on a small percentage of vehicles sold.