65 replies to this topic

[wrcva]

different vs. thread, the same boring pr message.   Alonso is... 

I would prefer a bit of Samurai talk... 

[Max!]

As an Alonso fan, and having never been too impressed by Kimi, I must say that, obviously, I agree with most of what McNish has to say about Alonso.

 

But I still think that his harshness against Kimi is too much. So overreacting, in fact, as t think that perhaps he has something personal against the guy. Because even if we consider that the points table is a true reflection of the situation at Ferrari, and that Alonso is clearly superior over Kimi, it would still not be enough to justify asking for Kimi to be unceremoniously kicked out, after a dozen races.

Well if Ferrari had the extra 80 points (difference Alonso - Kimi) they would still be battling for second position in the championship. Now they are fourth 

If I remember well a few places up in the constructor championship is easily worth the tens of millions buying off Kimi's contract would cost. 

 

The main question is: is there anyone in the driver field who could have done much better than Kimi? Maybe Alonso is unique.

[Vinsin]

Kimi is similar to Steve Jobs.

You give them a midfield window, they will relentlessly hammer the team till their engineers convert it into a fruit.

Perfectionists are difficult to please, sure can be a real pain in the a.... but when the note is hit, magic flows.
It's good Ferrari are getting a hard time over this setup zone, they will be better for it in the future, even after Kimi leaves the team.

Edited by Vinsin, 14 September 2014 - 19:41.

[bourbon]

Well if Ferrari had the extra 80 points (difference Alonso - Kimi) they would still be battling for second position in the championship. Now they are fourth 

If I remember well a few places up in the constructor championship is easily worth the tens of millions buying off Kimi's contract would cost. 

 

The main question is: is there anyone in the driver field who could have done much better than Kimi? Maybe Alonso is unique.

 

You act like challenging for 2nd is a good thing.  Even if McNish were correct (and he is not) and Alonso had 'dragged' the car into challenging for the WDC title 2 times over the last 5 years and losing at the finish was the best that could expected, it is still a losing run for all parties.  Admitting the problem is the first step, which Ferrari finally did in 2013.  They changed a lot internally and are hoping for improvement, but that won't happen overnight - especially with Kimi having issues with the car outside of that consideration.

 

Sure Massa never did as poorly as Kimi in the point standings, but let's see if the car improves more with Kimi/Alonso than it did when Alonso/Massa were participating in feed back exchange with the engineers.  If the car is again worse through 2015, then the whole bringing in Allison/new engineer team/Kimi experiment will have failed.  If not, it will be worth it.  Challenging for 1st is the goal, nothing less.

[Vinsin]

Well if Ferrari had the extra 80 points (difference Alonso - Kimi) they would still be battling for second position in the championship. Now they are fourth
If I remember well a few places up in the constructor championship is easily worth the tens of millions buying off Kimi's contract would cost.

The main question is: is there anyone in the driver field who could have done much better than Kimi? Maybe Alonso is unique.

Kimi didn't care much for his own 2nd place Podiums driving a Lotus, and seemed rather annoyed by it all, I very much doubt he cares about 2nd places when he signed up for Ferrari.

He is a team player, but the team needs to play with him as well. If they bonk his car 12 weekends out of 12 with new and improved Reliabilty issues... Then it's not entirely his fault anymore for those 80 points. Ferrari have their fair share of blame in it as well.

Edited by Vinsin, 14 September 2014 - 19:27.

[redreni]

I agree with the wee jock.

 

Saying "it's the engine" is a reasonable excuse for not improving as the season goes on, but it's not like when Red Bull complain about their engine as a way of saying "it's not our fault we're not winning". Ferrari's engine is slow and unreliable because Ferrari didn't do a good enough job on it. They had all of last season, when it was clear almost from the start that both titles were a lost cause, to put extra time and effort and money into the 2014 PU programme. Mercedes did a better job, and not just by a little bit but by a lot. As and when devlopment is permitted, there's a lot of catching up to be done, and if the gap to Mercedes isn't closed, it won't matter who drives, Ferrari will not win.

 

Melburne was a lowpoint, as the scale of the deficit to Mercedes became clear. Monza was another lowpoint. Heads have rolled, for better or worse, and now is the time to rebuild. Things have to be done differently.

 

On drivers, it's maybe slightly harsh on Kimi to make the direct comparison, on points ratios, with Massa, because in 2013 the cars were more or less bullet-proof and points ratios between teammates were more or less valid, whereas this year you really have to look at how much various technical issues have cost a driver. Having said that, I think Kimi and Massa were much of a muchness when they were teammates, and so the fact that there's not much difference now that one has replaced the other as Alonso's teammate isn't on the face of it that surprising. Although actually I am a bit surprised because I thought Massa had got noticably worse since his accident. The fact that Massa now looks quick in the Williams and Kimi has replaced him and not done much better relative to Alonso, kind of supports McNish's argument that Alonso has been doing a consistently amazing job these past few years. But banging on about replacing Kimi misses the point because, even if you discount the technical problems that have hampered Kimi, and even if you assume that two Alonsos would have scored 121 points each so far this season (which they wouldn't have done, of course, because one would always have to be behind and therefore score less points), it still wouldn't alter the fact that the car isn't quick enough.

[redreni]

Kimi didn't care much for his own 2nd place Podiums driving a Lotus, and seemed rather annoyed by it all, I very much doubt he cares about 2nd places when he signed up for Ferrari.

He is a team player, but the team needs to play with him as well. If they bonk his car 12 weekends out of 12 with new and improved Reliabilty issues... Then it's not entirely his fault anymore for those 80 points. Ferrari have their fair share of blame in it as well.

 

Arguing about the missing 80 points isn't even relevant. The comparison between Alonso and Kimi is irrelevant. It's just two great drivers wasting their time at the moment, which is sad to see when they both have a limited amount of time left at the top level. McNish banging on about replacing Kimi won't solve the problem. The problem is not with the drivers or the race team, it's at Maranello. The PU has fundamental design defects relative to the competition that will take time to fix and, until then, it's just pain for both drivers and everyone who attends the Grand Prix meetings. They just have to do their best and hope for a weird, attritional race and a lucky win.

 

The marque is the greatest in the history of motor racing and it will recover, but there's nothing that can be changed in the short term that will bring back acceptable results immediately. It's a rebuilding process. We have new leadership. Let us hope it will deliver the necessary changes to bring back success.

[redreni]

Well if Ferrari had the extra 80 points (difference Alonso - Kimi) they would still be battling for second position in the championship. Now they are fourth 

If I remember well a few places up in the constructor championship is easily worth the tens of millions buying off Kimi's contract would cost. 

 

The main question is: is there anyone in the driver field who could have done much better than Kimi? Maybe Alonso is unique.

 

Flawed reasoning. If you assume a second driver equal to Alonso, and they both scored equal points, that means one race in two Alonso would finish one place lower because his teammate would be ahead of him, so Alonso would not score as many points. Worry about the actual problem. The cars haven't been good enough for years, and now we have competition between PU manufacturers, the PUs aren't good enough either. As long as those problems aren't fixed, it won't matter who the drivers are, nothing significant will change.

[Alexandros]

I wonder what McNish thinks of RBR... should they keep Ricciardo and sack Vettel? 

[sennafan24]

They just slipped into 4th, so it is not even doing that.

Without Alonso, and with another driver performing at the same level of Kimi, Ferrari's standing in the WCC would be a lot worse.

 

I agree with McNish, Ferrari could lose Kimi and it would not effect much. However, if they lost Alonso, things could go from bad to worse. 

Edited by sennafan24, 14 September 2014 - 21:06.

[bourbon]

Without Alonso, and with another driver performing at the same level of Kimi, Ferrari's standing in the WCC would be a lot worse.

 

I agree with McNish, Ferrari could lose Kimi and it would not effect much. However, if they lost Alonso, things could go from bad to worse. 

 

You are focused on teammate comparisons - try to put that aside a moment.

If the car was better, Ferrari drivers could have had their 2 DNFs and they would still be challenging in the WCC (like Merc and RBR despite even more DNFs).  Kick Alonso or Raikkonen off the team and they will be in the same boat - losing.

Edited by bourbon, 14 September 2014 - 22:49.

[sennafan24]

You are focused on teammate comparisons - try to put that aside a moment.

Not in this instance, I am focused on the WCC, and the implications this year if Alonso had not been on the team.

 

 

 Kick Alonso or Raikkonen off the team and they will be in the same boat - losing.

True

 

But without one of those, they would be losing to a few more teams than they are.

[PlatenGlass]

So, he's only really three places behind Alonso on average in qualifying, and we know qualifying has never been Kimi's strong side.

Well it was when he was at his peak, which is before he joined Ferrari the first time!

Edited by PlatenGlass, 15 September 2014 - 00:52.

[George Costanza]

Well it was when he was at his peak, which is before he joined Ferrari the first time!

 

To be fair, Kimi was never the fastest like Mika was in qualifying. but Kimi is probably better at race craft in his peak than Mika. Then again, Mika would probably find a way, I think his mental strength is very good....

Still think Michael would have beaten Kimi rather easily (much like Fernando is now) if they were paired at Ferrari in 2007-2009.

Edited by George Costanza, 15 September 2014 - 01:03.

[MattPete]

 

 

The main question is: is there anyone in the driver field who could have done much better than Kimi? 

 

Kobayashi?

[George Costanza]

Well if Ferrari had the extra 80 points (difference Alonso - Kimi) they would still be battling for second position in the championship. Now they are fourth 

If I remember well a few places up in the constructor championship is easily worth the tens of millions buying off Kimi's contract would cost. 

 

The main question is: is there anyone in the driver field who could have done much better than Kimi? Maybe Alonso is unique.

 

 

Michael Schumacher.