83 replies to this topic

[garagetinkerer]

no all cars have the same 100kg limit per race would only work in places like monaco if you were to massively under fuel the car on a gamble of a lot of safety cars 

 

why ? could only think of a cost point.

 

 

? if so why has Renualt jumped leaps and bounds and Ferrari have not.  

Just look again at the rolling smiley there

___________________________

 

70HP is a fair bit. As much as over 10% of what they get out of I.C.E as of now. If the rumours, that Mercedes could complete two full laps before they have to specifically charge batteries again are true, then i guess it is not going to be any better next year. Well, not much anyways. May be Honda could potentially have a decent unit, or may be they won't... but others with the freeze as it is, fat chance.

Edited by garagetinkerer, 15 September 2014 - 02:25.

[lbennie]

RB11 is going to be amazing if this is true.

[warp]

I don't buy the 18kg stuff unless the rest of the teams have gone 18kg over the PU or total weight limit.

 

Power delivery and available power, yes, Mercedes is blowing everyone else out of the water.

[f1RacingForever]

All the cars have a minimum weight which I'm sure of the teams who are not on it, are very close to it. I'd be surprised if a top team were running cars 18kgs overweight, which leaves the advantage of a lighter engine in having more preferable placement of ballast. I find the rumored 70hp very believable though.

[OneAndOnly]

If this is true, then McLaren made the worst car in their history which is hard to believe. Mercedes made the best engine, but not that much better than others IMHO. I think hybrid part of PU is what makes the biggest difference. 

[george1981]

On the McLaren side. They were said to be limited by the fuel and oil they use not being as good as the Petronas products the other Mercedes teams use. Is there any figure for how much down on power/driverability etc. for McLaren?

[HoldenRT]

http://www.nextgen-a...oins,81541.html

 

A Team director told to french magazine Auto Hebdo that :

 

- Mercedes engine is 1.4 seconds minimum faster than Renault and Ferrari engine.

- 7 tenths because the engine is 18 kgs lighter, and 7 tenths because of the 70 HP power advantage.

- Teams with Mercedes engine can do two laps consecutively at full speed while Ferrari and Renault engines only allow to use 75% of the power on one lap.

- Even with a average chassis and aero, with a Mercedes engine it's the guarantee to be at the four or fifth row at least.

- All these advantage with a price almost equal to Ferrari and Renault.

 

Haven't read any replies yet but just wanted to give an initial impression based off of this juicy information/speculation.  In the end, people will probably argue or see what they want to see, it happens a lot.  It happened a lot in the winter.  It was shocking during the winter on here.  It was like a shark feeding frenzy or seagulls chasing after a stray chip.  When it was all uncertain and all was to play for.  It settled down once an order was established but until then it was like a frenzy.

 

If it's true, you have to feel for McLaren.  They've been hopeless.

 

In terms of the qualifying, I've been noticing lately.. it seems like a thing where a big advantage of the Merc teams is in qualifying in terms of the engine.  I thought a lot of it could be that the more powerful engine is bottlenecked in the race by the restricted fuel loads (and maybe actually could hurt them in some ways, because they can't take advantage of the power?).  But this'd also make sense, and had been starting to think lately.. that they have a better boost.  Had no idea about the weight of the thing but it seems hard to believe it could offer such an advantage.  Wieght is hard to define as an advantage, because saving weight just means that you move the weight around in other more preferred areas, it doesn't mean that you are actually lighter.  But it always helps, especially if you can lower center of gravity.

 

It's hard to say if it's true or not, but it's interesting.  What's been clear is that the chassis of certain teams are better than others and the engine has been frozen.  Williams get a lot of credit (and they deserve t) but a part of it is simply the engine they use.  Merc also have a good chassis.  Other Merc teams have had a big advantage over teams like STR, Sauber and Lotus.  You wonder where McLaren would be if they weren't using a Merc engine.  It'd be ugly.  It's also hard to separate parts in terms of the combustion part and the energy recovery part.  And the turbo.  There are a lot of different aspects.  And finally.. people need to remember, that if the restrictions are lifted going into next season.. Merc is free to stretch ahead even further.  It goes both ways.  Renault or Ferrari could catch up.  Or Merc could pull further ahead.  The main difference would be that the teams are free to adjust that through the season, the same way they do with their car or setups.  Imagine the outcries if Kimi had of been stuck using his Melbourne setup all season long (to name one example).

[HoldenRT]

They've done a good job then haven't they.

 

This was the funny thing earlier in the season.  Some people see it as a good thing and some people see it as a bad thing.    I've never seen another sport before where people try to argue.. "no, my team didn't do such a good job.. your team was more dominant last year" etc.  Bizarre.  It is what it is.. it just depends how people try to spin it.

[HoldenRT]

Who knows, maybe Honda engines will wipe the floor with Mercedes next year.

 

Or maybe the Honda's will "lunch themselves".  They've been known to do that in the past, in my time of watching F1.  It will be interesting to see.  That's the good thing about this season, at least engines have become relevant again because for years they were just in the background and a non factor.
 

[redreni]

no all cars have the same 100kg limit per race would only work in places like monaco if you were to massively under fuel the car on a gamble of a lot of safety cars 

 

why ? could only think of a cost point.

 

 

? if so why has Renualt jumped leaps and bounds and Ferrari have not.  

 

Starting weights do vary. We can see from the FOM figures that different cars use different amounts of fuel in the races, and you can bet that this reflects the natural fuel efficiency of the engines and drag levels of the cars, plus the teams' view of the optimum trade-off between starting weight and in-race fuel saving. They're not carrying enough to enable them to use the full 100KG/race allowance, generally speaking. It would be hard to isolate engine characteristics from other factors when seeking to explain why some cars are able to start races lighter than others, and it may be that those that start on the lighter side pay for it in the races by having to lift and coast more. I don't think it's been shown that Mercedes has an advantage in this area.

 

Their PU appears simply to be more powerful and able to harvest energy more efficiently (although maybe the high harvesting rate at the rear axle might explain their brake-by-wire system's inability to prevent their drivers locking the rears, having to go way forward on bias, then locking the fronts on a consistent basis all year).

[gruntguru]

The Petronas fuel and lubricants issue could be significant. The engine maker working hand in hand with the fuel and lubricant supplier is potentially a huge advantage. Petronas has direct access to the PU design and development team and the MB engineers likewise can tailor the PU to suit any tweaks Petronas come up with. Also of significance is the timeframe the two teams of engineers have been able to work together - going right back to concept design days.

 

The customer teams and their chemical suppliers are at a clear disadvantage IMHO.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Fine, I'll redo the question.

 

If you add 18kg of any weight to the car without adjusting for fuel limits or minimum weights or anything else, what's the laptime penalty...

[rhukkas]

1.4 second advantage. haha... errr.. no.

[Clatter]

Or maybe the Honda's will "lunch themselves".  They've been known to do that in the past, in my time of watching F1.  It will be interesting to see.  That's the good thing about this season, at least engines have become relevant again because for years they were just in the background and a non factor.
 

And which manufacturer hasn't?

[redreni]

Haven't read any replies yet but just wanted to give an initial impression based off of this juicy information/speculation.  In the end, people will probably argue or see what they want to see, it happens a lot.  It happened a lot in the winter.  It was shocking during the winter on here.  It was like a shark feeding frenzy or seagulls chasing after a stray chip.  When it was all uncertain and all was to play for.  It settled down once an order was established but until then it was like a frenzy.

 

If it's true, you have to feel for McLaren.  They've been hopeless.

 

In terms of the qualifying, I've been noticing lately.. it seems like a thing where a big advantage of the Merc teams is in qualifying in terms of the engine.  I thought a lot of it could be that the more powerful engine is bottlenecked in the race by the restricted fuel loads (and maybe actually could hurt them in some ways, because they can't take advantage of the power?).  But this'd also make sense, and had been starting to think lately.. that they have a better boost.  Had no idea about the weight of the thing but it seems hard to believe it could offer such an advantage.  Wieght is hard to define as an advantage, because saving weight just means that you move the weight around in other more preferred areas, it doesn't mean that you are actually lighter.  But it always helps, especially if you can lower center of gravity.

 

It's hard to say if it's true or not, but it's interesting.  What's been clear is that the chassis of certain teams are better than others and the engine has been frozen.  Williams get a lot of credit (and they deserve t) but a part of it is simply the engine they use.  Merc also have a good chassis.  Other Merc teams have had a big advantage over teams like STR, Sauber and Lotus.  You wonder where McLaren would be if they weren't using a Merc engine.  It'd be ugly.  It's also hard to separate parts in terms of the combustion part and the energy recovery part.  And the turbo.  There are a lot of different aspects.  And finally.. people need to remember, that if the restrictions are lifted going into next season.. Merc is free to stretch ahead even further.  It goes both ways.  Renault or Ferrari could catch up.  Or Merc could pull further ahead.  The main difference would be that the teams are free to adjust that through the season, the same way they do with their car or setups.  Imagine the outcries if Kimi had of been stuck using his Melbourne setup all season long (to name one example).

 

You're right that it cuts both ways, but the likelihood of a dominant team becoming more dominant as a result of performance upgrades being permitted is pretty low, simply because the other teams are still on a steeper part of the development curve, which will inevitably get flatter as long as the rules stay the same. It's harder to find big chunks of performance starting from where Mercedes are compared to if you start from where Renault or Ferrari are.

[travbrad]

I would hazard a guess the gap between the RBR and the Merc is entirely down to engine. Look at the gap and you will have your answer.

 

Yep.  That's why it is such a shame that they froze the engines before the season even started.  If Renault/Ferrari had been allowed to make progress we might be looking at a 3-4+ way fight for the WDC instead of one constructor running away with it.  Of course there is also the chance that Mercedes would continue to out develop the others, but at least it would have given the likes of Red Bull and Ferrari a hope of closing the gap this year.

Edited by travbrad, 15 September 2014 - 17:09.

[Dolph]

  Is the 1.4 second advantage over 500 miles, 100 yards, 1 lap, and entire race?

 

  Pretty meaningless number.

 

1 lap, most certainly.
 

[rodlamas]

70bhp is way more than 7 tenths a lap.

[Skinnyguy]

70bhp is way more than 7 tenths a lap.

 

Indeed. 80 BHP for some seconds (KERS) was worth 0.4 on average tracks. 70 BHP everytime you´re full throttle is worth way  more time than that.

[BJHF1]

Sounds like hogwash to me. The Merc engine being 18kg (40lbs) lighter sounds pretty outlandish, considering that the materials allowed for the core engine components are quite strictly regulated.  

Edited by BJHF1, 15 September 2014 - 22:40.

[ardbeg]

Fine, I'll redo the question.

 

If you add 18kg of any weight to the car without adjusting for fuel limits or minimum weights or anything else, what's the laptime penalty...

I think the average weight penalty is around 0.3 seconds for each 10kg of fuel, so 18kg would average .5s, but certainly, on some tracks it could be as much as 0.7 seconds. That is not the whole story though because 18kg at the wrong place could do even more damage than that.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Fine, I'll redo the question.

 

If you add 18kg of any weight to the car without adjusting for fuel limits or minimum weights or anything else, what's the laptime penalty...

You can estimate that by looking at the lap times for each driver immediately after a pit stop (to take tire wear out of the equation).  You have to look at a lot of samples, because other variables can distort the picture, but on average you should get the idea.  On average, the difference should be due to lighter fuel load.  From just cursory glance at the first such chart I could find from 2014, the estimate of 0.7 seconds for 18 kg seems pretty spot on, actually.

[tifosi]

This is one of the things I find lacking in Formula One today.  Looking back to 1988, as a Ferrari fan, this was a pretty miserable year, but no matter what, there was always the chance that Ferrari could eat into Honda's advantage.  Anxiously awaiting any good news from Maranello is one of the things that made the circus so exciting.

Now it's just mostly ho-hum, as long as Mercedes don't screw up it's a lock since none of the other teams are allowed to fight back.

[SanDiegoGo]

No mate, the Mercedes engine is a little bit more expensive. Sauber is already late in payment with Ferrari who have the cheapest engine. I think Lotus is in talk with Mercedes for next year, Marussia will keep Ferrari engines because Ferrari give them the gearbox, in fact i think Ferrari give to Marussia all the back end but i'm not sure.

http://joesaward.wor...-of-f1-engines/

 

 

"So, you want to be more competitive and spend less money? What do you choose?

 

Ferrari at $30 million. Maaa…

 

Renault at $40 million. Yougottabekiddinme…

 

Mercedes at $26 million. Ker-Ching!

 

Uh-duh…"

Edited by SanDiegoGo, 16 September 2014 - 05:22.

[Ross Stonefeld]

You can estimate that by looking at the lap times for each driver immediately after a pit stop (to take tire wear out of the equation).  You have to look at a lot of samples, because other variables can distort the picture, but on average you should get the idea.  On average, the difference should be due to lighter fuel load.  From just cursory glance at the first such chart I could find from 2014, the estimate of 0.7 seconds for 18 kg seems pretty spot on, actually.

 

That's an elegant solution 

[gruntguru]

Exactly what you would expect from Dmitriy.

 

Dmitriy - don't forget to note which tyre choice was fitted at the pit stop and eliminate data generated on option tyres. (You probably did that didn't you?) 

[rooksby]

"So, you want to be more competitive and spend less money? What do you choose?

 

Ferrari at $30 million. Maaa…

 

Renault at $40 million. Yougottabekiddinme…

 

Mercedes at $26 million. Ker-Ching!

 

Of course, that comparison does somewhat pre-suppose you actually pay for what you used.

 

I thought neither Sauber or Marussia had paid any of their 2014 engine bills, and it'd be a bold statement to suggest both Caterham and Lotus are fully paid up.

 

So 0$ for a Ferrari, or a few mill for a Renault contract repeatedly restructured and offset, does suddenly begin to make 26 for a Merc start to look pricey.

 

Well, not lets not say pricey, after the results of Monza qualifying, reassuringly expensive.

[August]

If there weren't the homologation, one could only admire how great work Merc have done.

 

Now with homologation one thinks how big an advantage Merc will have also in the next seasons.

 

Homologation for multiple seasons sucks.

[scheivlak]

If there weren't the homologation, one could only admire how great work Merc have done.

 

Now with homologation one thinks how big an advantage Merc will have also in the next seasons.

 

Homologation for multiple seasons sucks.

 

For the umptieth time: there is no homologation for multiple seasons.

 

When the season ends development will be unfrozen again for more than 90% of the engine.

[Cacarella]

For the umptieth time: there is no homologation for multiple seasons.

 

When the season ends development will be unfrozen again for more than 90% of the engine.

 

I thought it was 48%

[scheivlak]

I thought it was 48%

It's of course a question of definitions and values but only 5 out of 66 items are frozen for next year.

Edited by scheivlak, 16 September 2014 - 20:13.

[Cacarella]

...and they're not allowed to change 61 items...

[lbennie]

wait, what?

[Cacarella]

wait, what?

 

A stupid token system means that a manufacturer is allowed a number of tokens per year to make changes, I believe this year it's 32. 

With 66 (or some number like that) components or areas they're allowed to modify, but only 32 tokens to use, it translates to roughly 48%.

 

That's what I've read, but people seem to be interpreting it differently so I'd image Redbull Renault and Mercedes will interpret it as 92%

while Ferrari reads it as %36.