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Formula 1 set for team radio clampdown [merged]


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Poll: Overall, are you in favour of the team radio clampdown (204 member(s) have cast votes)

Overall, are you in favour of the team radio clampdown

  1. Yes (131 votes [64.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 64.22%

  2. No (73 votes [35.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.78%

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#1101 black magic

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 04:20

I just fail to see the point.

 

what real use is your engineer telling you so and so is quicker through whichever turn.

 

even if he could actually tell he was using more/less curb /break etcetc.

 

fact is the other driver has to have the confidence, car setup and ability to do it. equally they don't drive with exactly the same technique and yet can be exactly matched at the end of the lap.

 

at least with radio the fan was allowed to listen to some of it.

 

and no pitboards - what the?? so we go back to the past to reinvent the future. just a dumbass move. unpoliceable as well.



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#1102 oetzi

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 07:32

Downhill skiing? Dunno about the rules or if it's simply not practical

Unless the rules have changed, coaching while the players are on the pitch isn't allowed in Rugby Union. (iirc, same for cricket)

#1103 alfa1

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 07:48

(iirc, same for cricket)

 

Cricket, especially test cricket, has plenty of meal breaks during the match where the coach can coach as long and as hard as he wishes. And momentarily diverting from the individual known as "coach", (as in the sailing example cited above) there are many other (perhaps more experienced) team members who are allowed do as much coaching as they wish to other players whenever they like.


Edited by alfa1, 22 September 2014 - 07:49.


#1104 redreni

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 08:55

Unless the rules have changed, coaching while the players are on the pitch isn't allowed in Rugby Union. (iirc, same for cricket)


It is in training sessions. F1 drivers' training is limited to whatever they can manage in testing, of which there is hardly any, and at events. And even then, most of the running in free practice sessions at events is aimed either at evaluating or validating upgrades or setting the car up for the race. Runs where the driver is free to concentrate purely on practicing his own skills and experimenting with different lines and driving techniques are very rare, since you don't want to be playing around with that sort of stuff too much if you're back-to-backing two front wings, because you don't want to introduce unnecessary variables.

Giving advice on technique while the player is on the pitch is permitted in association football even if not in rugby, but such advice is never given during matches for the same reason you don't hear drivers being given driving tips during their Q3 runs - it's not helpful. But in my view it's perfectly natural for such coaching to occur in free practice, just as it would for a footballer in a training session. If it's still happening in races, that in my view is just an indication of the lack of training opportunities in F1, because merely by talking to your driver you run the risk of diluting his concentration and costing yourself time, so if there are still big enough gains to be had from coaching even by race day to make it worthwhile to bother a guy when he's busy driving says more about how hard the cars are to drive and how wise it is to not let sportsmen train between events than anything else, in my view.

#1105 Buttoneer

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 08:59

At any rate, a rugby or football players legs are not going to explode if they run too fast in the first ten minutes of the game.



#1106 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:06

Here we go... McLaren believes Red Bull used coded radio messages in Singapore: goo.gl/pR0qil #F1



#1107 pdac

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:09

At any rate, a rugby or football players legs are not going to explode if they run too fast in the first ten minutes of the game.

 

Careful, the "motorsport is not a sport" argument will rear it's head if you start saying thinks like that.



#1108 oetzi

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:46

It is in training sessions. F1 drivers' training is limited to whatever they can manage in testing, of which there is hardly any, and at events. And even then, most of the running in free practice sessions at events is aimed either at evaluating or validating upgrades or setting the car up for the race. Runs where the driver is free to concentrate purely on practicing his own skills and experimenting with different lines and driving techniques are very rare, since you don't want to be playing around with that sort of stuff too much if you're back-to-backing two front wings, because you don't want to introduce unnecessary variables.

Giving advice on technique while the player is on the pitch is permitted in association football even if not in rugby, but such advice is never given during matches for the same reason you don't hear drivers being given driving tips during their Q3 runs - it's not helpful. But in my view it's perfectly natural for such coaching to occur in free practice, just as it would for a footballer in a training session. If it's still happening in races, that in my view is just an indication of the lack of training opportunities in F1, because merely by talking to your driver you run the risk of diluting his concentration and costing yourself time, so if there are still big enough gains to be had from coaching even by race day to make it worthwhile to bother a guy when he's busy driving says more about how hard the cars are to drive and how wise it is to not let sportsmen train between events than anything else, in my view.

Was just mentioning some well known sports where player coaching during gameplay is not allowed. Don't shoot the messenger.

#1109 oetzi

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:47

PS surely the simulator is the equivalent of training these days?

#1110 Jerem

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 10:03

 

Here we go... McLaren believes Red Bull used coded radio messages in Singapore: goo.gl/pR0qil #F1

 

Of course they did.

They were not even coded. Give driving advice and say it'll "help solve the problem you have on the car" stays within the rules.



#1111 Buttoneer

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 10:12

ARGH!  This makes F1 so much more shit than before!

 

Speaking about how different dealing with the race from the pit wall was now with the new radio limits, Boullier said: "Nothing, but it makes us more busy listening to the others to see they are not doing anything like Red Bull did twice on Ricciardo."

 

If there's a questionable radio message, and it results in a driver finishing in a worse position and losing the championship, won't that be lots of fun?



#1112 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 10:26

Red Bull will NOT face any action from the FIA over McLaren's claim of a breach of the new radio rules



#1113 TopDog85

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 11:25

I'm glad the FIA relaxed their original criteria for the radio ban, these cars are way too technical to just let the drivers do it all themselves, it just wouldn't work in the current climate.

Edited by TopDog85, 22 September 2014 - 11:26.


#1114 sopa

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 11:32

In my view the ban of radio messages is a bit pointless, while creating more bureaucratic mess. Really, I can see that FIA wants to give racing more "to drivers hands", but in the grand scheme of things this radio ban is a pretty small unnecessary thing, only a drop on ocean. While creating lots of unclear confusion. FIA would have been well-advised to shift their attention to other things to try to improve F1.

 

E: During the coverage it didn't seem like there had been a radio ban. If I hadn't heard of the news beforehand, I may not have noticed. We got lots of messages and Vettel was even told "watch your fuel and tyres" multiple times. The people, who are probably happy about the new rules, are lawyers - potentially more work for them to debate about small hazy details...


Edited by sopa, 22 September 2014 - 11:37.


#1115 JoseArrogantio

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 11:45

So driving advice is acceptable if it's to help prevent technical problems with the car?

Could you just use this to cover up all driving advice?

 

Stay off the kerbs to protect the battery.

Use 5th gear in turn two to protect the gearbox.

Brake later into turn one to prevent brake glazing.



#1116 Tsarwash

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 11:54

I'm not sure the specifics of this rules, now that it has been amended, but Nico was clearly being coached when his cars' electrics went down. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/29301627  Probably UK only. 

I'm not complaining, because I don't see what else they are supposed to do in these circumstances, but telling him that the pitlane limiter will not work, and he needs to drive in 1st gear and keep the revs under 6,500 is as clear a case of coaching as you can get. I think what happened to Nico this weekend shows how difficult it will be to enforce the rules. 



#1117 rhukkas

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 12:04

So it's wrong for the world's best drivers to be coached live.... but apparently it's fine that a below par driver can buy a seat?

 

Doesn't really add up.



#1118 rhukkas

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 12:06

I'm not sure the specifics of this rules, now that it has been amended, but Nico was clearly being coached when his cars' electrics went down. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/29301627  Probably UK only. 

I'm not complaining, because I don't see what else they are supposed to do in these circumstances, but telling him that the pitlane limiter will not work, and he needs to drive in 1st gear and keep the revs under 6,500 is as clear a case of coaching as you can get. I think what happened to Nico this weekend shows how difficult it will be to enforce the rules. 

 

No a clear case of coaching would be

 

"hi nico you need to use less braking force into T1 and open the wheel earlier. maybe we should look at pre-loading the car as discussed on the sim"

 

Trying to manage a electronic problem is not coaching. it would be a farce for the team to have the information int heir hands and not relay to the drivers.



#1119 redreni

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 12:30

 

Here we go... McLaren believes Red Bull used coded radio messages in Singapore: goo.gl/pR0qil #F1

 

 

Boullier: "Once would have been OK, but twice or three times is a bit strange."

 

I'd like to know what regulation, technical directive or even off-the-cuff remark from Charlie Whiting tells us that legal messages become illegal when repeated?

 

This is just Red Bull testing the limits as they always do with new regulations. They did it with engine maps, they did it with fuel flow, and they'll do it with this. Letting Red Bull get away with this message is a signal that all the FIA is now asking the teams for is politeness, at least until the end of the season when we might get a proper regulation change. The clear message about driving style aimed at improving tyre life, with a weak attempt to link it to a car problem, is the final nail in the coffin of the false dichotomy of car performance vs driver performance. The two are inseparable, the teams know it, the FIA knows it, anyone who's thought about it for a couple of minutes knows it, and all this now boils down to is: "Can you please try to tone down the language a bit? Rember Bernie is listening, and you know what he's like."



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#1120 redreni

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 12:42

No a clear case of coaching would be

 

"hi nico you need to use less braking force into T1 and open the wheel earlier. maybe we should look at pre-loading the car as discussed on the sim"

 

Trying to manage a electronic problem is not coaching. it would be a farce for the team to have the information int heir hands and not relay to the drivers.

 

Yeah but the point is both in the Rosberg case and in your example the team is instructing the driver with regards to his inputs. Okay, in the Rosberg case there's a clear problem with the car which needed the driver to work around it and drive in a totally different way than normal, whereas the car in your hypothetical example might be in perfect working order, but you can always dress up any advice about driving style as being aimed at overcoming a car problem of one sort or another. It might not be a severe problem, it might just be a tendency to understeer and induce front graining, but ultimately the distinction between working with the driver to overcome a car problem and working with him to go faster is non-existant. A perfectly set up car is rare - you go faster by working out the best way to drive around whatever negative characteristics a car has, and if you want to coach your driver, all you have to do is couch it in terms of some sort of handling problem with the car, and Bob's your uncle.



#1121 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 16:15

Boullier: "Once would have been OK, but twice or three times is a bit strange."

 

I'd like to know what regulation, technical directive or even off-the-cuff remark from Charlie Whiting tells us that legal messages become illegal when repeated?

 

This is just Red Bull testing the limits as they always do with new regulations. They did it with engine maps, they did it with fuel flow, and they'll do it with this. Letting Red Bull get away with this message is a signal that all the FIA is now asking the teams for is politeness, at least until the end of the season when we might get a proper regulation change. The clear message about driving style aimed at improving tyre life, with a weak attempt to link it to a car problem, is the final nail in the coffin of the false dichotomy of car performance vs driver performance. The two are inseparable, the teams know it, the FIA knows it, anyone who's thought about it for a couple of minutes knows it, and all this now boils down to is: "Can you please try to tone down the language a bit? Rember Bernie is listening, and you know what he's like."

"@adamcooperF1: RBR checked with the FIA before sending radio message to @danielricciardo in Singapore: http://t.co/PcbebG90vQ"



#1122 SirT

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 16:19

It's quite ironic that it's Ricciardo after this interview at the beginning of the weekend. http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/29259115



#1123 Bloggsworth

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 16:30

To save all the bollocks, the FIA should issue a list of phrases, the exact wording of which is mandatory, which can be used for safety, engineering and pit-stop purposes. Then all the drivers will have to do is to remember which phrase actually means what when passing through which particular corner....



#1124 scheivlak

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 23:14

Anyhow, to me RB's advice to Ricciardo (already on lap 4!) "Avoid the tow if you can" is not only cringeworthy in itself but also quite clearly an example of the kind of driver advice that isn't permitted.

 

Maybe harsh, but I would have given them a 5 secs penalty straight away for that just to make things perfectly clear from the start.



#1125 blub

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 23:25

Physicist2
Yes, outside the boat has always been banned, at least during my time sailing, as it should be.
Can you imagine the games that were played with the big J boats? Lots of off boat actions to help, positioning sail boats at different marks sailing to indicate breeze and current etc.



#1126 blub

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 23:27

Red Bull plays this F1 thing their way, and for the most point it works. Remember the fuel flow issue of the first race, they played it as they wanted but that time they got hurt. So it seems Red Bull will offend the rules and if they get away with it the dumb FIA has allowed a precedent to be set and at that point who knows what the rules are.



#1127 baddog

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 00:19

Seems to me the teams (and FIA by complicity) just decided to ignore the new rules entirely. Both Ricciardo and Hamilton were coached blatantly.



#1128 hollowstar

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 17:55

Ok, I just read Suzuka's radio transcript, and I really don't get it:

http://www.f1fanatic...dio-transcript/

 

Lewis is getting a lot of help from both Bonington and Jock Clear.  Other drivers too but much less it seems, at least among these transcripts. 

 

How come these are still allowed? 

 

From Lewis:

 

So my front brakes, if I’m set at 54, 53% B-bal, I can’t keep the temperature in the fronts, struggling, and the rears are getting too hot. At least from what I can see on my dashboard of minimum temps, particularly with the brake warming up.

 

 

 

OK Jock just a question. The drive-ability is very important. So I just want to make sure firstly I’m in the right torque mode. Secondly diff exit, just then for example wheels spinning up, aquaplaning, this kind of thing. What can help that most?

 

 

Jock to Lewis:

 

OK that’s good. And diff exit I suggest we go to diff exit eight. Looking at the data Nico’s locking quite dramatically on exits and looks to have less snaps.

 

 

 

It doesn't seem to me that these conversations were to prevent car issues (other than handleability). So why/how is that is still allowed?   Is it only the FIA being de facto unable to enforce its own new rule? 



#1129 BillBald

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 18:04

Ok, I just read Suzuka's radio transcript, and I really don't get it:

http://www.f1fanatic...dio-transcript/

 

Lewis is getting a lot of help from both Bonington and Jock Clear.  Other drivers too but much less it seems, at least among these transcripts. 

 

How come these are still allowed? 

 

From Lewis:

 

 

 

 

Jock to Lewis:

 

 

It doesn't seem to me that these conversations were to prevent car issues (other than handleability). So why/how is that is still allowed?   Is it only the FIA being de facto unable to enforce its own new rule? 

 

I think it's becoming pretty clear that FIA is unable to enforce its own rules, but I can't remember if these discussions were held when the cars were stopped in the pit lane, in which case they were OK (or is it just OK when they are in the pit box?)



#1130 RubalSher

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 18:06

Ok, I just read Suzuka's radio transcript, and I really don't get it:

http://www.f1fanatic...dio-transcript/

 

Lewis is getting a lot of help from both Bonington and Jock Clear.  Other drivers too but much less it seems, at least among these transcripts. 

 

How come these are still allowed? 

 

From Lewis:

 

 

 

 

Jock to Lewis:

 

 

It doesn't seem to me that these conversations were to prevent car issues (other than handleability). So why/how is that is still allowed?   Is it only the FIA being de facto unable to enforce its own new rule? 

 

Coz that is all on lap 3 when the race was red flagged. These rules obviously dont apply when the drivers are parked on the grid/pit lane after it is red flagged.



#1131 hollowstar

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 18:08

I think it's becoming pretty clear that FIA is unable to enforce its own rules, but I can't remember if these discussions were held when the cars were stopped in the pit lane, in which case they were OK (or is it just OK when they are in the pit box?)

 

 

Coz that is all on lap 3 when the race was red flagged. These rules obviously dont apply when the drivers are parked on the grid/pit lane after it is red flagged.

 

 

Ah, makes sense! Thank you guys! 



#1132 Jejking

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 21:27

Coz that is all on lap 3 when the race was red flagged. These rules obviously dont apply when the drivers are parked on the grid/pit lane after it is red flagged.

How are you so sure?



#1133 redreni

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 21:29

Coz that is all on lap 3 when the race was red flagged. These rules obviously dont apply when the drivers are parked on the grid/pit lane after it is red flagged.

 

I thought it applied in all sessions when the car is on the track? The pit lane is still part of the track and the session was ongoing, because it specifically says in the sporting regs that the red flag suspends the race but doesn't stop it. Perhaps there has been a further concession since this was first announced.

 

Under a literal interpretation of "the driver must drive the car alone and unaided", where advice and instruction is considered to be aid, you could easily argue that the team shouldn't be allowed to tell a driver anything at any time that may aid him later when he is driving. It looks like Bernie only wants it applied while the driver is actually driving, but surely information the team gives him before he gets in the car could help a driver just as much as things they tell him after he gets underway? Personally I'm not sure why one is right and the other wrong?



#1134 RubalSher

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 21:34

I thought it applied in all sessions when the car is on the track? The pit lane is still part of the track and the session was ongoing, because it specifically says in the sporting regs that the red flag suspends the race but doesn't stop it. Perhaps there has been a further concession since this was first announced.

 

Under a literal interpretation of "the driver must drive the car alone and unaided", where advice and instruction is considered to be aid, you could easily argue that the team shouldn't be allowed to tell a driver anything at any time that may aid him later when he is driving. It looks like Bernie only wants it applied while the driver is actually driving, but surely information the team gives him before he gets in the car could help a driver just as much as things they tell him after he gets underway? Personally I'm not sure why one is right and the other wrong?

 

Once the race is red flagged, the drivers can get out of the car and discuss it face to face. I believe you are even allowed to discuss this sitting in the garage during qualy and FPs. From what I understand, driver aids are only disallowed when the car is moving on track. Red flags and sitting inside garages likely doesnt count.

 

Edit: Think I misunderstood your post a little since you seem to be saying the same thing as I am. The reason I am guessing it is allowed in certain situations is because the drivers can talk about the same stuff with their engineer face to face even if the driver is sitting in the car. It will only be a minor inconvenience to the race engineers if they were banned from discussing this on radio at all times.


Edited by RubalSher, 09 October 2014 - 21:37.


#1135 RubalSher

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 21:34

How are you so sure?

 

We know it is lap 3 and the rest is obvious.



#1136 pdac

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 21:49

Once the race is red flagged, the drivers can get out of the car and discuss it face to face. I believe you are even allowed to discuss this sitting in the garage during qualy and FPs. From what I understand, driver aids are only disallowed when the car is moving on track. Red flags and sitting inside garages likely doesnt count.

 

If this is true then it's utterly stupid. It should be a radio ban. If they want to get out, take their helmet off and talk - fine. Otherwise it should be no. If the officials hear it, they should act.



#1137 MP422

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 22:46

If this is true then it's utterly stupid. It should be a radio ban. If they want to get out, take their helmet off and talk - fine. Otherwise it should be no. If the officials hear it, they should act.

 

It's not utterly stupid though, If you think about it realistically. :up:



#1138 Tombstone

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 23:19

I'd like to see contract negotiations conducted via pit-car radio, mid-race.


Edited by Tombstone, 09 October 2014 - 23:19.


#1139 Grundle

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 10:36

Lewis Hamilton has won every race since this rule was enforced.

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#1140 Kraken

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 10:59

Lewis Hamilton has won every race since this rule was enforced.

From what I've heard it doesn't seem to have made much difference to anyone to be honest. They were still giving Lewis feedback on his practise start on the formation lap.