Jump to content


Photo

Moss in the Mille Miglia (1956 and 57)


  • Please log in to reply
23 replies to this topic

#1 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,500 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 20 September 2014 - 22:54

Everybody knows about the route notes used by Moss and Jenkinson in the 1955 Mille Miglia, written on a long roll of paper and housed in a case made for them by Daimler-Benz, but I have never seen mention of what they did in 1956 and 57.  There is no mention in DSJ's story of the 1956 race and the 1957 story was as short as their race.  In 1956 they only did two practice laps both in the week before the race and both in smaller Maseratis than they used in the race.  I think the course was unchanged in the three years but I'm not sure.  So did they use the same notes and case as in 1955?  I imagine that it would have have to have been very well made to survive the 1956 rains.



Advertisement

#2 lyntonh

lyntonh
  • Member

  • 1,644 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 21 September 2014 - 00:10

Peter Miller's book "Count Maggi's Mille Miglia" has the routes for 1954 - 1957 the same (map on page 162)



#3 275 GTB-4

275 GTB-4
  • Member

  • 8,274 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 21 September 2014 - 01:48

I watched Jay Leno recently doing the 2004 (?) MM revival in a XK120(?) and in that doco they showed the film of Moss and Jenks averaging over 100 MPH....they also showed the map box (looked to be about 5" X 4" x 3'') and it certainly looked splash/rain proof (glass or plastic window).



#4 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,698 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 21 September 2014 - 08:53

I vaguely remember being told that they updated the 'bog roll' using the same case.  As it was handwritten the update could have taken the form of annotating the notes or it could have been some form of 'cut and paste'.

 

I'm sure that Daimler-Benz engineering would have produced a rain proof box.  After all, 1955 was one of the rare occasions that the Mille Miglia was run in completely dry conditions.



#5 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
  • Member

  • 8,397 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 21 September 2014 - 10:58

Everybody knows about the route notes used by Moss and Jenkinson in the 1955 Mille Miglia, written on a long roll of paper and housed in a case made for them by Daimler-Benz, .

On re-reading your first post, Roger, I am tempted to ask "Are you sure?" - Looking at close-up photos of the map box, I see that the legend "M Papier Ltd., Foots Cray, England" is engraved on the front suggesting that they were the maker of the box.



#6 fuzzi

fuzzi
  • Member

  • 581 posts
  • Joined: August 06

Posted 21 September 2014 - 11:13

Quite correct, according to DSJ in Motor Sport Mr Moos arranged to have the box made.

 

In, I think 2005, SCM had a number of replica boxes made complete with directions, the price was too much for me sadly.

 

The Mille Miglia route changed only in (very small) details for the last four races 1954-57; the major change was between Cremona and Brescia where the route diverted through Mantova as a tribute to Tazio Nuvolari who died in August 1853. 



#7 Alan Cox

Alan Cox
  • Member

  • 8,397 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 21 September 2014 - 14:20

In, I think 2005, SCM had a number of replica boxes made complete with directions, the price was too much for me sadly.

Still available, Julian, if you have £2,722 tucked down the side of your sofa



#8 D28

D28
  • Member

  • 2,012 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 21 September 2014 - 15:15

According to MotorSport in their May 2005 feature story on the race, the idea for the roller box came from John Fitch. He was originally slated to drive with Jenks but both agreed that a Moss- Jenkinson team stood a better chance of beating the Italians. Jenks then took the roller box idea with him.

Overlooked in the overall win was the superb effort by Fitch and German journalist Kurt Gesell to finish 5th overall and an hour ahead in the GT class, in a production 300SL. Fitch and Gesell used notes, but not together in a roll.



#9 Tuboscocca

Tuboscocca
  • Member

  • 1,324 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 21 September 2014 - 16:41

Still available, Julian, if you have £2,722 tucked down the side of your sofa

Alan...here for a bargain-priced GBP 722,00

 

http://www.thesignat...xed-set/3164325

 

 

Michael



#10 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 79,958 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 21 September 2014 - 18:05

Is it worth it?

I mean with the map operator not being present...

#11 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 6,096 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 21 September 2014 - 18:23

In his legendary article on that MM event Jenks says that SCM had an alloy case made with Perspex window. Presumably he owns the copyright and that is why the replicas could be made for sale by SCM. Jenks kept the original which Alan Henry was bequeathed IIRC.

Roger Lund



#12 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,698 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 21 September 2014 - 20:02

In his legendary article on that MM event Jenks says that SCM had an alloy case made with Perspex window. Presumably he owns the copyright and that is why the replicas could be made for sale by SCM. Jenks kept the original which Alan Henry was bequeathed IIRC.

Roger Lund

I thought it ended up with Doug Nye.



#13 Robin Fairservice

Robin Fairservice
  • Member

  • 599 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 21 September 2014 - 21:12

I was at a Hertfordshire Film show a few years ago, and Doug Nye had the Moss/Jenks navigator box with him and passed it around.  I was one of several who held it and twiddled the knobs.



#14 Tuboscocca

Tuboscocca
  • Member

  • 1,324 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 21 September 2014 - 21:33

Sorry Michael, the price I quoted includes a personal meeting and signing session with the Great Man

....that's fair..2,000 quid..

and you get on top a 'stone-age' navigation system! :clap:

 

Michael



#15 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 9,571 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 21 September 2014 - 22:25

....that's fair..2,000 quid..

and you get on top a 'stone-age' navigation system! :clap:

 

Michael

 

Someone should have patented the idea, just think what they'd be raking in now from Garmin & TomTom.



#16 Tuboscocca

Tuboscocca
  • Member

  • 1,324 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 22 September 2014 - 08:12

Someone should have patented the idea, just think what they'd be raking in now from Garmin & TomTom.

Kayemod..did you know??The first were clock-work-driven!!

And BTW: look at the Dakar Rally, still the same principle with the moto-riders!!

 

Michael



#17 ChrisD

ChrisD
  • Member

  • 112 posts
  • Joined: September 05

Posted 24 September 2014 - 18:40

A couple of points.  In an article 'Porsche and the Mille Miglia' (Porsche 356 Registry magazine, Vol 35 No 6, Jan/Feb 2012) the author, Phil Carney, states that in the 1954 Mille Miglia Hermann and Linge used course notes that they had compiled prior to the event, with Linge shouting instructions to Hermann.   Hermann and Linge finished 6th overall and first in class in their 550 Spyder.   Googling 'Porsche Mille Miglia Carney' will find the above mentioned article in pdf form. 

 

In the book '722', written by Denis Jenkinson and Doug Nye, Jenks is said to have discussed the forthcoming (1955) Mille Miglia with John Fitch.  (Fitch had competed in the MM in 1953 in a Nash Healey, and Jenks had competed in the 1954 MM with George Abecassis in an HWM-Jaguar, so they both had direct experience of the event.)  Fitch's contention was that the only way a non-Italian could win the MM was by "applying science to overcome the Italian drivers' local knowledge of huge sections of the course".  Fitch shared with Jenks his idea for the co-driver to read from pre-prepared notes.  Jenks thought the idea could work, so long as reconnaissance ensured the notes were correct, and that the navigator didn't lose his place!!!  According to '722', Jenks diary for 4 February 1955 read "Met Moss ....  Mille Miglia is definitely on (for Jenks) ....  Moss suggested a very similar system to Fitch's ... using the passenger to look after navigation ....".  If all the above is correct, it could therefore be that the idea evolved from a number of people and their experiences of racing on a 1000 mile long course.  (Incidentally, a German motorcycle accessory company, Touratech,  still - so far as I am aware - make a device called a 'Roadbook'  that is virtually the same as that used by Jenks, with a roll of paper for your handwritten route notes enclosed in a weatherproof metal housing, two knobs to wind on / re-wind the notes, visible through a clear viewing screen!!)

 

With regard to the route of the Mille Miglia, as has been said already this was the same for the last four editions of the Mille Miglia, and only varied on the previous year by the addition of the new section near the very end of the course that took the cars through Mantua.  This was initiated in memory of Tazio Nuvolari, who had died the previous year.  This additional leg of 132 kilometres from Cremona through Mantua to the finish at Brescia was named the Nuvolari Gran Premio - Mille Miglia.  According to Leonardo Acerbi, in The Mille Miglia Story 1927-1957, the fastest three cars over the Gran Premio Nuvolari section would each receive a prize of 1 million Lire.  The outright winners of the Gran Premio Nuvolari were:

1954:  Alberto Ascari:  Lancia D24:  112.066mph

1955:  Stirling Moss/ Denis Jenkinson:  Mercedes Benz 300SLR:  123.339mph

1956:  Eugenio Castellotti:  Ferrari 290MM:  105.087mph

1957:  Olivier Gendebien/ Jaques Washer:  Ferrari 250 GT: 123.908mph



#18 D28

D28
  • Member

  • 2,012 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 24 September 2014 - 20:32

ChrisD:

 

No doubt many people had the idea for for long distance race notes, but John Fitch in the article referenced above (my post Sep 21) and his biography  Racing With Mercedes claimed the roller-box idea as his own.

 

I tend to believe Fitch as he had a very inventive, technical mind. He obtained patents for highway safety barriers widely used in N America and other motoring safety devises.


Edited by D28, 25 September 2014 - 14:08.


#19 Tuboscocca

Tuboscocca
  • Member

  • 1,324 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 24 September 2014 - 20:43

A couple of points.  In an article 'Porsche and the Mille Miglia' (Porsche 356 Registry magazine, Vol 35 No 6, Jan/Feb 2012) the author, Phil Carney, states that in the 1954 Mille Miglia Hermann and Linge used course notes that they had compiled prior to the event, with Linge shouting instructions to Hermann.   Hermann and Linge finished 6th overall and first in class in their 550 Spyder.   Googling 'Porsche Mille Miglia Carney' will find the above mentioned article in pdf form. 

 

In the book '722', written by Denis Jenkinson and Doug Nye, Jenks is said to have discussed the forthcoming (1955) Mille Miglia with John Fitch.  (Fitch had competed in the MM in 1953 in a Nash Healey, and Jenks had competed in the 1954 MM with George Abecassis in an HWM-Jaguar, so they both had direct experience of the event.)  Fitch's contention was that the only way a non-Italian could win the MM was by "applying science to overcome the Italian drivers' local knowledge of huge sections of the course".  Fitch shared with Jenks his idea for the co-driver to read from pre-prepared notes.  Jenks thought the idea could work, so long as reconnaissance ensured the notes were correct, and that the navigator didn't lose his place!!!  According to '722', Jenks diary for 4 February 1955 read "Met Moss ....  Mille Miglia is definitely on (for Jenks) ....  Moss suggested a very similar system to Fitch's ... using the passenger to look after navigation ....".  If all the above is correct, it could therefore be that the idea evolved from a number of people and their experiences of racing on a 1000 mile long course.  (Incidentally, a German motorcycle accessory company, Touratech,  still - so far as I am aware - make a device called a 'Roadbook'  that is virtually the same as that used by Jenks, with a roll of paper for your handwritten route notes enclosed in a weatherproof metal housing, two knobs to wind on / re-wind the notes, visible through a clear viewing screen!!)

 

With regard to the route of the Mille Miglia, as has been said already this was the same for the last four editions of the Mille Miglia, and only varied on the previous year by the addition of the new section near the very end of the course that took the cars through Mantua.  This was initiated in memory of Tazio Nuvolari, who had died the previous year.  This additional leg of 132 kilometres from Cremona through Mantua to the finish at Brescia was named the Nuvolari Gran Premio - Mille Miglia.  According to Leonardo Acerbi, in The Mille Miglia Story 1927-1957, the fastest three cars over the Gran Premio Nuvolari section would each receive a prize of 1 million Lire.  The outright winners of the Gran Premio Nuvolari were:

1954:  Alberto Ascari:  Lancia D24:  112.066mph

1955:  Stirling Moss/ Denis Jenkinson:  Mercedes Benz 300SLR:  123.339mph

1956:  Eugenio Castellotti:  Ferrari 290MM:  105.087mph

1957:  Olivier Gendebien/ Jaques Washer:  Ferrari 250 GT: 123.908mph

ChrisD..

 

thanks for the  mentioning of the Carney article!!

 

Here are the roadbook holders:

 

http://shop.touratec...ult/?q=roadbook

 

Regards MM-Michael



Advertisement

#20 David Beard

David Beard
  • Member

  • 4,997 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 25 September 2014 - 21:02

I thought it ended up with Doug Nye.

And contains the 57 bog roll.



#21 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 9,571 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 25 September 2014 - 22:23

And contains the 57 bog roll.

 

...only the first 12kms of which were ever unwound...



#22 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 11,512 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 26 September 2014 - 09:09

1 - Jenks developed John Fitch's notion.

 

2 - Jenks left the box in his Estate - it survives with me today.

 

3 - It contains the 1957 route notes roll updated from 1955 to 1956, then 1957.  The original was written in pencil - checked and triple-checked by DSJ and his lady friend Nan Cawthorne, then transcribed onto the final roll - so that detected errors could be easily erased and corrected...during reconnaissance, of course.  Come the day it had to be perfect - or they could be dead.

 

DCN



#23 fuzzi

fuzzi
  • Member

  • 581 posts
  • Joined: August 06

Posted 26 September 2014 - 10:14

I hope the engraved roller bearing connecting rod from the 1955 Mille Miglia engine is also in safe hands. :wave:  



#24 275 GTB-4

275 GTB-4
  • Member

  • 8,274 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 19 October 2014 - 05:54

Scrolls have been around for quite some time...didn't they find some in the Dead Sea? :)

 

But the idea of scrolling through a route map was obviously around well before the 1950s.

WW1CavalryNavMapboard_zps40934e7e.jpg


Edited by 275 GTB-4, 19 October 2014 - 22:18.