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Clark at Monza, 1967.


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#1 Spa65

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 00:09

I remember watching this race on BBC as a 16 year old. I must admit I was gobsmacked. Clark pitted very early with a puncture and lost over a lap in the pits. He rejoined and emerged a lap behind the leader - Graham Hill in an identical Lotus 49.

 

Now here's what I remember: Clark passed Hill who held on in his slipstream for a couple of laps before Clark set off from last place in an apparently no hope hot pursuit of the guys in front, unlapping and dropping Hill. Hill's Lotus eventually expired later in the race. But I have seen a couple of accounts of this race that say that Hill stayed on in Clark's slipstream and the two went on circulating together. I don't think that's what happened. Can anyone provide the lap charts, or some other evidence as to what actually happened?

 

I think the race itself was one of the greatest Grand Prix ever. Clark catching and passing the leaders with a couple of laps to go, before running out of fuel on the last lap. Then the two hardest men in Grand Prix racing going side by side into the last corner. Brabham v Surtees. Surtees won by a few inches.

 

I've been watching Grand Prixs for 50 years or so and, for me, the only thing that's come close to the Italian Grand Prix in 67 is Rindt at Monaco in 1970. Watching that Lotus going through Casino Square sideways, in the last laps, in a car with the crash resistance of beer cans. He was very obviously inspired.

 

Nowadays, for me, it's so sanitised with drivers/circuits/sponorsi you can't identify or sympathise with the drivers. Back in the 60's they were all the best of friends.

 

I guess I'm a sad old bastard, but I'm glad I witnessed that era.



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#2 Keir

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 03:03

Jimmy started out by almost stalling in front of Chris Amon's Ferrari causing the Kiwi to drop his clutch and buzz the new 4 valve per cylinder motor. Then, of course, Clark is Clark and off he goes to a great finish. Chris, on the other hand, is left with a now duff engine on a power circuit.



#3 GD66

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 03:25

http://www.grandprix.../gpe/rr159.html

#4 Tim Murray

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 05:54

The race report in Autosport provides race times and positions every ten laps or so. Clark had pitted with his puncture on lap 13 and rejoined in the leading group, but a lap down. It took till around lap 30, and Hulme's retirement, before the Lotuses managed to drop Brabham and set off on their own. The race times and positions from then on were:

30 laps:
1. Hill 45 min 17.4 sec
9. Clark 29 laps

40 laps:
1. Hill 60 min 13.8 sec
7. Clark 61 min 42.5 sec

50 laps:
1. Hill 75 min 13.6 sec
5. Clark 76 min 42.3 sec

Hill retired on lap 59. The times indicate that between laps 30 and 40 Hill's average lap time was around 1 min 29.6 sec, and between laps 40 and 50 around 1 min 30.0 sec. The gap between Hill and Clark on lap 40 was 1 min 28.7 sec, and this was unchanged on lap 50, so Clark had gained nothing on Hill over the intervening ten laps.

It therefore seems clear that, at least until lap 50, Clark and Hill were circulating in convoy with Clark around a second or so ahead of Hill.

#5 Roger Clark

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 06:19

Jimmy started out by almost stalling in front of Chris Amon's Ferrari causing the Kiwi to drop his clutch and buzz the new 4 valve per cylinder motor. Then, of course, Clark is Clark and off he goes to a great finish. Chris, on the other hand, is left with a now duff engine on a power circuit.

If th report in Motor Sport is to be believed, it wasn't really a case of Clark almost stalling. A dummy grid was used and the expected procedure was for a green flag to wave the field forward to the grid proper and the Italian flag to start the race. The green flag was waved much later than expected and many of the drivers, led by Brabham decided that it was the start of the race. Clark, on pole position, took the green flag as the signal to move to the grid proper until the field was all around him.

Very bad luck on Amon, but it wouldn't ha happened if he had been on the front row.

#6 Roger Clark

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 06:41

The race report in Autosport provides race times and positions every ten laps or so. Clark had pitted with his puncture on lap 13 and rejoined in the leading group, but a lap down. It took till around lap 30, and Hulme's retirement, before the Lotuses managed to drop Brabham and set off on their own. The race times and positions from then on were:

30 laps:
1. Hill 45 min 17.4 sec
9. Clark 29 laps

40 laps:
1. Hill 60 min 13.8 sec
7. Clark 61 min 42.5 sec

50 laps:
1. Hill 75 min 13.6 sec
5. Clark 76 min 42.3 sec

Hill retired on lap 59. The times indicate that between laps 30 and 40 Hill's average lap time was around 1 min 29.6 sec, and between laps 40 and 50 around 1 min 30.0 sec. The gap between Hill and Clark on lap 40 was 1 min 28.7 sec, and this was unchanged on lap 50, so Clark had gained nothing on Hill over the intervening ten laps.

It therefore seems clear that, at least until lap 50, Clark and Hill were circulating in convoy with Clark around a second or so ahead of Hill.

The lap charts in Autocourse, which include lap and cumulative times, tell the same story

#7 DogEarred

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 09:53

I too watched it but as a 14 year old & being a Clark fan, was thrilled watching (& being commentated on by Raymond Baxter, of course) the race pan out & of course, disappointed by the final outcome. At the time though, you don't fully appreciate or are aware of all the facts of the race.

But that's motor sport, isn't it? So many races have been won on others misfortune or good/bad luck. You have to accept it all. It's never been a 'fair' sport. Very few are. It's fairer nowadays in terms of reliability but at the expense of freedom of technical advancement. 

 

Fully agree with the Rindt 'close down' in 1970. But I'm sure he would not have won had Brabham stayed on the track. See what I mean?...


Edited by DogEarred, 21 September 2014 - 13:58.


#8 Incast

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 10:11

I found some time ago this video on youtube of this race with Raymond Baxter commentary covering the final laps: 

It looks like a subsequent video or highlights set using the original broadcast.

 

Is this what you remember watching live on the BBC? I've always wondered whether this is one of the earliest examples of surviving 'live' F1 coverage.

 

I've been passionate about Formula 1 since I started watching in 1996 and it's always a pleasure finding old footage of these races before FOCA took control in the early 80s. It just irritates me that the main surviving footage is documentary style films with 1-2 cameras at each track which does nothing to capture what really happened.

 

Anyway, I deviate, I hope you enjoy that footage if you haven't seen it already.


Edited by Incast, 21 September 2014 - 10:12.


#9 Spa65

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 13:35

Many thanks for all the detailed comments. It now seems my memory was playing slight tricks, but it's been 47 years and I was a Clark fan.

 

Yes it was Raymond Baxter's commentary that I remember so well. He rarely got excited but this race was an exception. So much more genuine and enjoyable than the "Get wildly excited about everything" pretense that has been so common since Murray Walker first appeared on the scene. Now who else can I annoy with some non-PC comments?



#10 DogEarred

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 14:09

Yes, we could all argue until the Caterhams come home about the quality of TV commentating these days. I've never thought that ex-competitors in any sport necessarily make good commentators although some grow into it. It is useful to have these people for better insights though, as the coverage gets more complex. Murray Walker's enthusiasm was certainly no pretence, which at least gave him the ability to make the describing of paint drying a heart stopping experience.

The less said about ex F1 team owners on the BBC, the better....

 

How's that, young Spa?...



#11 john winfield

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 14:06

Here's a little bit of film with a modern Italian commentary.  There are some lovely shots, including the start as described by Roger, with the starter still climbing the gantry, tricolore in hand, as the field streaks away!  I had forgotten that Dan Gurney led for a short while.  What a race.

 


Edited by john winfield, 22 September 2014 - 14:09.


#12 nicanary

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 14:21

Wonderful pronunciation of drivers' names - Dan Garney, Gramm Ill, Denny Umm, and Jack Brabbamm.  Great footage, though.



#13 JtP2

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 22:22

The comment of the time was "just because Brabham is World Champion, it does not give him the right to start GPs"

 

As for the difference between Clark and Hill. Clark caught Hill, followed him for a few laps. He then unlapped himself and pulled away. I have to do this from memory, as I don't have the copy of Autocourse



#14 Tim Murray

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 05:07

JtP, your memory is letting you down again. Please go back and re-read posts 4 and 6 of this thread, which are based on the facts as published in Autosport and Autocourse.

#15 2F-001

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 07:34

I've haven't consulted the lap charts to crystallise this in my mind (Autosport hadn't begun their comprehensive data pages in '67, and I don't have the relevant Autocourse), but from the notes here, the race report and my suspect memory, is this a fair summary…?

1. Notwithstanding Clark's drive being of 'epic' status, it was perhaps not quite as sometimes imagined.

2. Following Clark's early delay he rejoined more-or-less a lap down (but running in company with the leading group). Once the Lotuses were clear of the pack they pulled away, Clark greatly reducing his deficit to everyone except Hill. Clark then passes Hill, putting him on the same lap as the leaders, but still a long way down (any suggestion that Hill let him by to give him a clear run?) and begins to make inroads into his deficit - only marginally to Hill, who was running close behind but still in the lead - but hugely compared to everyone else.

3. On lap 60, Hill retires from an ever-growing lead (of, I'm estimating, somewhere between 75 seconds and a full lap?), Clark having caught Surtees for third (then second) on the same lap. A couple of laps on, Clark passes Brabham too, but Surtees begins to regain ground to both. Brabham and Surtees re-pass Clark early into the final lap and they battle it out for victory.

4. Had both Lotuses kept going at undiminished pace, Hill would have won by a handsome margin (still comfortably over a minute, I think) with Clark second, Surtees and Brabham battling for third.

Is that about it?

(I do recall seeing this on tv - presumably it was highlights rather than live… I know we've discussed this here before, but I forget the conclusion.)

Edited by 2F-001, 23 September 2014 - 07:35.


#16 Tim Murray

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 08:20

I think that's a pretty good summary, Tony. I now realise that some of what I wrote earlier is incorrect, in that after his pit stop Clark was a few seconds down on the leading group containing Hill and the two Brabhams. He caught them rapidly, but then the two Lotuses couldn't escape from the Brabhams until around lap 30 when Hulme retired and Brabham was slightly hampered by having buzzed his engine.

From then on there can be no doubt that Clark and Hill travelled in convoy for many laps. The Autosport data I analysed above shows that the gap between Clark and Hill remained constant between laps 40 and 50, and DSJ's report in Motor Sport indicates that they were still in convoy when Hill's engine blew towards the end of his 59th lap.

Obviously Hill was getting a tow from Clark (as mentioned several times by DSJ in his report). However, Hill's performance tends to get forgotten in all the hype about Clark's drive - and I say that as a dyed-in-the-wool Clark fan.

#17 uechtel

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 08:27

2. Following Clark's early delay he rejoined more-or-less a lap down (but running in company with the leading group). Once the Lotuses were clear of the pack they pulled away, Clark greatly reducing his deficit to everyone except Hill. Clark then passes Hill, putting him on the same lap as the leaders, but still a long way down (any suggestion that Hill let him by to give him a clear run?) and begins to make inroads into his deficit - only marginally to Hill, who was running close behind but still in the lead - but hugely compared to everyone else.

4. Had both Lotuses kept going at undiminished pace, Hill would have won by a handsome margin (still comfortably over a minute, I think) with Clark second, Surtees and Brabham battling for third.

Is that about it?

 

I think it was rather like Hill and Clark worked together all the way to make benefit of the team mate´s slipstream, in order to get away from the opponents (Hill) respectively to make up the lost ground (Clark). So to my understanding if the Lotuses had not run into problems they would have ended 1 -2, but still with that one lap between them.


Edited by uechtel, 23 September 2014 - 08:29.


#18 JtP2

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 10:11

My feeble memory does let me down, but I didn't get banned from motoring quizs for nothing. Clark certainly followed Hill for a while, but passed him and pulled away and was well out of camera shot when Hill broke his crankshaft at the entrance to the Parabolica. Would Clark have taken the lead if Hill had not broken down? The answer is a resounding NO. Would he have caught Brabham and Surtees, yes. Iirc, would Surtees have caught Brabham without towing assistance from Clark? no



#19 2F-001

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 10:20

Thank you, all.

I agree Tim - I wasn't intending to diminish Clark (he's one of a handful of drivers that constitute the nearest thing I have to heroes)...
just noting that a) this was - almost - as much about the superiority of the 49/DFV as anything else, and b) as Tim points, Hill's performances in the 49 tend to be a little bit overlooked.

Edited by 2F-001, 23 September 2014 - 10:21.


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#20 ensign14

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 10:44

I need to dig out the old Autocourse, but I recall Clark had a run of 24 in 25 laps under 90 seconds, and the entire field between them only had 16 such laps all race. 

 

I also seem to remember Clark took 20 seconds out of NGH; he also took 20 laps to catch up the 1 minute he was behind the third Lotus of Baghetti. 



#21 Tim Murray

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 10:45

Clark certainly followed Hill for a while, but passed him and pulled away and was well out of camera shot when Hill broke his crankshaft at the entrance to the Parabolica.

I agree with the rest of your post, JtP, but still feel you're not being entirely fair to Hill here. The Autosport data shows that Clark passed Hill sometime between laps 30 and 40. From here until at least lap 50 Clark gained nothing on Hill, and the pair were travelling in convoy. How much beyond lap 50 the convoy lasted is not clear, and I'm happy to accept that Clark was well clear of Hill when Graham's engine went bang.

Edited by Tim Murray, 23 September 2014 - 10:55.


#22 2F-001

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 10:50

<< deleted - comment no longer relevant >>

Edited by 2F-001, 23 September 2014 - 10:57.


#23 Tim Murray

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 10:59

Sorry Tony, I'm getting myself in a mess here. Having posted, I realised I'd misrepresented you, so deleted that bit of my post, but too late. Sincere apologies. I'll now stop digging ... :blush:

#24 2F-001

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 11:02

That's ok!. Fascinating that a race seemingly so well-known and so frequently referred to, is still open to interpretation.

#25 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 14:49

On his 14th lap, Clark was 9 seconds behind Hill on the road. On his 57th, he was 4 seconds ahead. That's the extent of his gain from the time he got up to speed following his pit stop until Hill's retirement. By comparison, on the same lap 14, Clark was 81 seconds behind Surtees and 1 lap plus 8.7 seconds behind Brabham.

On lap 30, Brabham was 33.6 seconds ahead of Surtees, but on lap 65, the Honda passed him. You have to wonder whether Brabham was relaxing too much; most of his laps between 40 and 50 were in the 1' 32"s, from lap 50 to 60 his times were 1' 33, 1' 32.9, 1'35.2, 1'33.2, 1'33.8, 1'32.9, 1'32.6, 1'32.6, 1'32.4, 1'33.9 and 1'32.8. Clark passed him on lap 61 and from then Brabham's times were 1'31.6, 1'30.2, 1'30.4, 1'30.4, 1'30.1, 1'30.6, 1'30.0, 1'30.1. Motoring News reported that Brabham was suffering from a sticking throttle which caused his engine to over rev and lose power but he was clearly able to lap competitively at the end of the race.

#26 Doug Nye

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 15:37

Great talents demand a grand stage upon which to demonstrate their talent at its finest.  While some decried both the old-style Spa and Monza as being 'mere' flat-out blinds, I was not alone in considering them grand stages, as above. This 1967 Italian GP certainly proves that so far as I am concerned - Monza providing the stage for Jimmy's last great European hurrah, just as it would in 1973 for Jackie Stewart...in what he described at the recent Goodwood Revival Meeting as having been "my greatest race"...

 

DCN



#27 JtP2

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 18:32

Excellent point DCN. There are lots of heros at 50 mph, they get a bit thin on the ground at 150mph.



#28 nmansellfan

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 21:59

Always great to see that clip, Incast. :)  The YouTube video comes from a programme called 'Grand Prix 500', narrated by Nigel Roebuck who you can hear over the lap chart at the start of the clip.  It was broadcast Christmas 1990 on BBC1 to celebrate 500 WC GP's, and it was the first time I had seen some proper GP footage from the sixties (I was born in '78), let alone footage of one of Clark's greatest races.  The programme also came out on VHS under a different name.  The same programme shows the very short clip of the end of the '69 Italian GP with another very close finish.

 

According to forum poster dweller23's excellent research (I can't post the link to the thread for some reason!), The BBC showed live segments of the race.  I can't tell clearly where the edits are in the clip, and if they were part of the original programme leaving and returning to the broadcast, or if they were edited for 'Grand Prix 500'.  Raymond Baxter is describing the new Honda and Ferrari 'which we haven't seen before.  And down in this group will be the leaders...' which suggests the programme has just come back on live, or the BBC only started showing the race from this point - lap 59, as we see Hill coasting towards Parabolica at the same time.  In any case, at least the BBC caught the last 10 laps of a piece of GP history!  The time between Clark crossing the line to start lap 66 at 2.02 in the clip and Surtees appearing out of Lesmo 1 in the lead at 2.12 having passed Clark running out of fuel is too short for the cars to get round Curva Grande and Della Roggia, yet Baxter's commentary seems unedited - he has genuine surprise when he sees Surtees come out of Lesmo 1 in the lead.

 

I wish a complete recording of the race was out there; (highly unlikely - RAI was the host broadcaster and only showed live segments themselves - some of the early parts of the race from their TV broadcast appears in the clip John Winfield posted) it would give me a better understanding of how the race unfolded, with the lap charts alongside. Sometimes TV footage paints a truer picture than post-race accounts (the '69 British GP Stewart / Rindt 'passing and repassing' story being an example), but anything from the days of Raymond Baxter is always entertaining to watch.


Edited by nmansellfan, 24 September 2014 - 22:01.


#29 JtP2

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 00:45

nmansellfan, you have to remember that Raymond Baxter's understanding of motor racing was even less than Murray Walker's. :p



#30 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 08:43


Nowadays, for me, it's so sanitised with drivers/circuits/sponorsi you can't identify or sympathise with the drivers. Back in the 60's they were all the best of friends.

 

I guess I'm a sad old bastard, but I'm glad I witnessed that era.

 

Welcome to the "sad old bastards" club. I couldn't agree more. Didn't know or care much about racing until I saw "Grand Prix" at the local theatre in late 1967. But then I was hooked. From that point on (at the age of 12) I read and watched everything I could find about racing and raced Formula Vee and Formula Ford myself in the seventies and eighties.

 

Like you, I am glad that I witnessed an era. But at some point it all changed. I still watch F1 but it is more out of habit than passion. I am still riveted to the screen on those few occasions where there is actual wheel to wheel racing but I find myself disgusted by the amount of money that is required to participate in modern F1. I'll bet the modern F1 team spends more money on steering wheels than was spent to run a car for a full season in 1967. I swear it is turning me into a communist. I can't help but think that the amount of money pissed away on a modern Grand Prix weekend could probably be better used to end the Ebola crisis in Africa. (Of course the same could be said about the Olympics.)

 

I could go on and on. The drivers are raised as test tube babies who start racing go carts at age three. The cars are designed and built by a team that dwarfs the effort required to put a man on the moon. The racing has to be made more interesting by implementing such gimmicks as "tyre strategy" and DRS.

 

This subject warrants its own thread so I won't dwell any further. I will just end by saying that I have always wondered if those who considered the 30's as the golden age of racing felt that my golden age (the 60's) was as vacant of interest and passion as I find the current age. I think not.

 

Bob Mackenzie



#31 MonzaDriver

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 10:04

Welcome to the "sad old bastards" club. I couldn't agree more. Didn't know or care much about racing until I saw "Grand Prix" at the local theatre in late 1967. But then I was hooked. From that point on (at the age of 12) I read and watched everything I could find about racing and raced Formula Vee and Formula Ford myself in the seventies and eighties.

 

Like you, I am glad that I witnessed an era. But at some point it all changed. I still watch F1 but it is more out of habit than passion.

 

Dear Bob,

everything changed not from some point onward, but from Bernie Ecclestone onward, aided by Colin Chapman.

Me unfortunately I didn't witnessed that era, and many times I wondered about.

Things were different, before Bernie Ecclestone and wings.

MonzaDriver