83 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

Now we have Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari, Honda is joining next season onwards.

 

But what are the F1 manufactures of the future?

 

I think we will see Geely in future. It's a Chinese company which will build the engines for the Chinese Formula 4 championship in 2015. They also built the cars for Formula Geely in partnership with Van Diemen.

[MikeV1987]

VW, hopefully.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

VW group no doubt.

 

Maybe in the back of a Lamborghini or Bugatti branded F1 car.

[Anders Torp]

It's getting too late for joining under the 2014-2020 specs.

[Jejking]

VW group no doubt.

 

Maybe in the back of a Lamborghini or Bugatti branded F1 car.

What solid evidence we have for this? VW was supposed to join F1 5 years ago as well. Don't know what they have to gain from F1 right now with the sport being in quite a sorry state competitively and marketing technically.

Edited by Jejking, 21 September 2014 - 10:44.

[Imateria]

VW have supposed to be joining the sport every year for the last 30. I will confidently say that unless there's a wholesale change on the board of directors for F1 fans then they will never, ever enter the sport.

[KWSN - DSM]

In the more immediate future which I will then place between 2020 and 2030 think we could see:

 

Chevrolet

Nissan

Hyundai

VAG group under some name not VW

 

Some of those who were there and withdrew with their tail between their legs I think could make a reappearance.

 

[Jejking]

Jep, that's the problem I'm having with that idea too. Should be major changes to make that happen. F1 is a money pit and success isn't guaranteed.

[Fastcake]

VW have supposed to be joining the sport every year for the last 30. I will confidently say that unless there's a wholesale change on the board of directors for F1 fans then they will never, ever enter the sport.

VW require a personal change, but it's not their board of directors that need to go. They are reputedly not too enamoured with entering Formula One while it remains under the control of Bernie Ecclestone.

[Clatter]

I don't see any others joining. They have shown no real interest in the past and joining when the engines will be pretty well frozen makes no sense.

Edited by Clatter, 21 September 2014 - 11:45.

[Buttoneer]

VW have been doing extraordinarily well from LeMans and even when they do not dominate the circuit they are dominating the publicity for Audi, for the series.  They won't get anything extra from F1.

[uffen]

F1's popularity is sagging, the sport is over-managed (and very poorly in many cases) with DRS, safety car standing starts, double points, fixed driver numbers that still can't be seen (except Williams), expenses out of control, etc., etc.

Why would VW, or anyone else enter when they seem perfectly fine with out it?

[SpaceHorseParty]

In the more immediate future which I will then place between 2020 and 2030 think we could see:

 

Nissan

Nissan have a strategic partnership with Renault, I doubt they would enter Formula One if Renault are still around.

[BRG]

I think we will see Geely in future. It's a Chinese company which will build the engines for the Chinese Formula 4 championship in 2015. They also built the cars for Formula Geely in partnership with Van Diemen.

Have Geely or any other Chinese manufacturer even made their own road engines yet?  Rather than reworking someone else's design?

[Dunc]

I hope Ford (as Ford, not Jaguar) and Toyota come back. Both left in rather a bad state, much like Honda, so I hope they can come back and get some glory.

[DanardiF1]

Chinese companies have no reason to be in Formula 1... there is still the domestic market for them to exploit and we've seen in the pitiful attendances at Shanghai (one of the world's largest cities remember) that there isn't really much interest in F1 in China right now.

 

Geely makes crap cars that intentionally look like other manufacturers own creations, and predominantly sell their cars in South Asia, South America and Eastern Europe... basically, where they're poor enough not to care what brand car they have.

 

The VW Group wants rid of Bernie before they would consider entry, they don't agree with his management style and seem to have more personal issues with him too. If he was gone they'd be the prime candidate considering their brand lineup and international reach.

 

Hyundai-Kia are probably the biggest corporation not to have had some interest in F1 either directly or through their group interests, but again whilst they are definitely not just makers of trash anymore their target market isn't in line with F1's... Hyundai are not expected to compete with Mercedes and Ferrari and they're not a company targeting hybrid technology right now so there isn't much in it for them...

[30ft penguin]

VW have supposed to be joining the sport every year for the last 30. I will confidently say that unless there's a wholesale change on the board of directors for F1 fans then they will never, ever enter the sport.

 

Yup. They have Porsche, Audi and even VW themselves in other racing series (which all are closer to street car technology). I do not see them investing money in yet another racing series, especially an ultra expensive one like F1.

Edited by 30ft penguin, 21 September 2014 - 19:22.

[F1matt]

I think Mclaren will build their own engine eventually, as their road car division becomes more successful it must be the logical choice, especially as the Honda deal is only exclusive for one year.

[Risil]

I've heard even fewer rumours of a fifth manufacturer in F1 than a third in Indycar.

 

WEC is where it's at for wild speculation. With three distinct classes of racing with manufacturer involvement -- plus Garage 56 -- there's no shortage of opportunities to make 2 and 2 equal a full factory racing outfit with revolutionary new hybrid technology and a total pullout from F1 into the bargain.

[BRG]

I hope Ford (as Ford, not Jaguar) and Toyota come back. Both left in rather a bad state, much like Honda, so I hope they can come back and get some glory.

No danger of Ford entering as Jaguar anymore.  And anyway Ford have never made a F1 engine, only ever bankrolled Cosworth to do it for them.

 

But now Jaguar are owned by Tata Industries, perhaps there might be a chance there.....except that the rapid demise of the Indian GP doesn't suggest much local interest.

[George Costanza]

I'd like to see BMW return....

 

Imagine if McLaren find Honda too slow, and they get BMW?

McLaren-BMW yet again...

Edited by George Costanza, 21 September 2014 - 22:19.

[BRG]

McLaren-BMW yet again...

I think I missed the first time.....

[scheivlak]

I'd like to see BMW return....

 

Imagine if McLaren find Honda too slow, and they get BMW?

McLaren-BMW yet again...

For the moment BMW is far more interested in Formula E: "In brief, BMW i and Formula E are a perfect match" 

http://www.fiaformul...-formula-e.aspx

 

Formula E will become a series open to different manufacturers in the near future - don't be surprised if BMW is one of them.

[Lee Nicolle]

F1 has priced itself out of the game really. This years cars are silly to look at, sound boring and cost the national debt to run. Seriously! In the past the engines [and no electric gizmos] were far cheaper to build. While I agree with the 'lifeing' of engines it almost certainly makes them far more expensive. An engine that gets rebuilt  eg every 500 racing miles is  lot cheaper to run than one with 4 or 5 times that.

Ford had Cosworth build some quality engines in the distant past. Not just the V8 but BDA BDG etc. These days FIAT, where do they find the budget, and that as a very major manufacturer. Then having the Ferrari moniker is almost silly. Mercedes ditto but at least they have their own name. Renault? they have been VERY lucky with Red Bull. Their cars have made an average engine look good. Probably more so this year. I have read an article that they will be gone when they fullfill their contracts. How true I do not know. 

Realistically the N/A engines seemed to be cheaper. Sounded far better and in theory should be more reliable. A  N/A 3 litre 8 10 12 engine is far more exciting than a turbo 4 or V6.. They may not be much faster but speed is just a part of the equasion. As for all the elctrical gizmos that cost a fortune, make the cars heavier and harder to drive. Why? May be practical for economy runs but not 'ultimate' motor racing

I am surprised at the seemingly popularity of the LeMans style sports cars with their boring truck engines! Here in Oz everybody I talk too is underwhelmed at black smoke and flat exhaust notes. Though at least the manufacturers may be learning something usefull for practical engines.

[pdac]

Why would any other engine manufacturers come into F1 if there's only 8 teams in total to supply?

[Disgrace]

I still think it's remarkable that Honda are back, even in a reduced capacity as engine supplier, so soon after leaving in 2008 with their tail between their legs. F1 must solve it's financial problems before it can attract manufacturers again - at least four teams are on the brink of extinction as it is. Emissions standards for road cars are continually tightening so hybrid technology in F1 is simply inevitable, and I agree they will have to compete with WEC and now FE. Again though, the change will not come until CVC are out.

[f1RacingForever]

I'd like to see bmw return but I'm not sure that's going to happen. I don't think F1 needs more engine manufacturers but it's still healthy for the sport. It's survived just fine with a similar number of suppliers over the years. F1 is becoming so expensive, manufactures are more reluctant to join than in the past. They need to further keep the spending in check to make f1 more appealing to other manufacturers. They are on the right track but there is still more they can do.

Edited by f1RacingForever, 22 September 2014 - 04:26.

[f1RacingForever]

How about decreasing the level of technology in the power units. Doing so would make f1 more appealing to manufactures with more primitive engine technology. Doesn't make sense for manufacturers like Mazda, Chrysler or even Ford to have much interest knowing their inexperience in hybrid technology would likely mean they would be uncompetitive. This would be less of a problem with simpler engines. Would be cheaper as well. F1 kind of shoots themselves in the foot in this respect. It's nice to appear advanced but that is not necessarily what everyone wants.

[Anders Torp]

... Chrysler...

A part of FCA these days so they won't be doing it on their own.

[Jackmancer]

Some electric brand for sure. I don't think Tesla will ever care about F1, but Venturi surely will. 

[Victor_RO]

I think I missed the first time.....

 

The F1 road car and race car had a BMW V12 engine in the back.

[Hans V]

I'm not sure how interesting F1 is for a car manufacturer. If not a spec engine it's very restricted. So it's not very interesting from a technical view. If they go motorracing to develop and test  technology - and train employees, WEC gives far more freedom and challenges. From a financial view, it requires huge Investments and despite putting a big amounts of money they will start from behind and will have to pour in even more money to be even remotely competetive. And there aren't many potential customers to generate Income to offset the investment. From a markerting point of view, F1 isn't all that popular and the demographics it attracts even less so. So spending all that money probably doesn't give much in terms of mareting ROI. The risk is, like Toyota discovered, one spends absolutely huge amounts of money only to be humiliated evey other weekend.

 

But, if any manufacturer is to enter F1, probably to boost image, I'd guess it would be one from Korea or China, badging a Cosworth drivetrain.  

[TF110]

Theres as much or more interest in lmp1 than f1 it seems. Nissan joining next year, talks of Subaru interested in lmp1 and a possible 6th from the UK. As of now, only Honda is coming to F1 and maybe one more. Its about equal in terms of manufacturer involvement if Red Bull is a 'factory' team.

[gruntguru]

How about decreasing the level of technology in the power units. Doing so would make f1 more appealing to manufactures with more primitive engine technology.

Are you nuts? MB, Honda ad Renault have all said they would not be participating if the formula had not gone the high tech route. Manufacturers with more primitive engine technology are either moving ahead with high tech or going broke.

[Dunc]

No danger of Ford entering as Jaguar anymore.  And anyway Ford have never made a F1 engine, only ever bankrolled Cosworth to do it for them.

 

But now Jaguar are owned by Tata Industries, perhaps there might be a chance there.....except that the rapid demise of the Indian GP doesn't suggest much local interest.

 

Didn't they build the Zetec engine themselves?  In any case, I'd like to see the Ford name back in F1 and, frankly, I'd like to see Ford and Cosworth get together again.

[SenorSjon]

And perhaps some other independent manufacturers would have jumped in the void. Hart, Ilmor (Mercedes) and a few others made F1-engines in the past. If there is a gap, manufacturers will take it. Now it costs like half a billion to develop, build and maintain the V6 hybrid MGU-alphabet. And all you get is an underwhelming vacuum cleaner sound when the red lights turn off.

[HistoryFan]

Some electric brand for sure. I don't think Tesla will ever care about F1, but Venturi surely will. 

 

Venturi was in F1 in 1992. They owned 65% of the Larrousse team.

 

[HistoryFan]

In the more immediate future which I will then place between 2020 and 2030 think we could see:

 

Chevrolet

Nissan

Hyundai

VAG group under some name not VW

 

Some of those who were there and withdrew with their tail between their legs I think could make a reappearance.

 

 

Chevrolet never were in F1 in the past - so no, I don't think they will join F1 in future, why should they?

 

Nissan and Renault together - no.

 

Hyundai, I don't think so. The South Korean Grand Prix is out, I don't think there was really much interest in South Korea.

 

[HistoryFan]

Have Geely or any other Chinese manufacturer even made their own road engines yet?  Rather than reworking someone else's design?

 

I don't know, but why should Geely not have a partner like Cosworth to build their F1 engines. Even Mercedes is not building their engines at home...
 

[HistoryFan]

Chinese companies have no reason to be in Formula 1... there is still the domestic market for them to exploit and we've seen in the pitiful attendances at Shanghai (one of the world's largest cities remember) that there isn't really much interest in F1 in China right now.

 

Geely makes crap cars that intentionally look like other manufacturers own creations, and predominantly sell their cars in South Asia, South America and Eastern Europe... basically, where they're poor enough not to care what brand car they have.

 

The VW Group wants rid of Bernie before they would consider entry, they don't agree with his management style and seem to have more personal issues with him too. If he was gone they'd be the prime candidate considering their brand lineup and international reach.

 

Hyundai-Kia are probably the biggest corporation not to have had some interest in F1 either directly or through their group interests, but again whilst they are definitely not just makers of trash anymore their target market isn't in line with F1's... Hyundai are not expected to compete with Mercedes and Ferrari and they're not a company targeting hybrid technology right now so there isn't much in it for them...

 

A  very interesting post

 

Why is the target market of Hyundai not in line with F1's?

 

[HistoryFan]

No danger of Ford entering as Jaguar anymore.  And anyway Ford have never made a F1 engine, only ever bankrolled Cosworth to do it for them.

 

But now Jaguar are owned by Tata Industries, perhaps there might be a chance there.....except that the rapid demise of the Indian GP doesn't suggest much local interest.

 

I don't think Tata would enter F1 as Jaguar...
 

[Clatter]

How about decreasing the level of technology in the power units. Doing so would make f1 more appealing to manufactures with more primitive engine technology. Doesn't make sense for manufacturers like Mazda, Chrysler or even Ford to have much interest knowing their inexperience in hybrid technology would likely mean they would be uncompetitive. This would be less of a problem with simpler engines. Would be cheaper as well. F1 kind of shoots themselves in the foot in this respect. It's nice to appear advanced but that is not necessarily what everyone wants.

They were not interested when the engines were simpler, nothing has changed to make F1 more appealing to them. 

[Fastcake]

How about decreasing the level of technology in the power units. Doing so would make f1 more appealing to manufactures with more primitive engine technology. Doesn't make sense for manufacturers like Mazda, Chrysler or even Ford to have much interest knowing their inexperience in hybrid technology would likely mean they would be uncompetitive. This would be less of a problem with simpler engines. Would be cheaper as well. F1 kind of shoots themselves in the foot in this respect. It's nice to appear advanced but that is not necessarily what everyone wants.

If there is a manufacturer out there who can't design a hybrid, they're not going to be in the business for much longer.

And perhaps some other independent manufacturers would have jumped in the void. Hart, Ilmor (Mercedes) and a few others made F1-engines in the past. If there is a gap, manufacturers will take it. Now it costs like half a billion to develop, build and maintain the V6 hybrid MGU-alphabet. And all you get is an underwhelming vacuum cleaner sound when the red lights turn off.

It cost half a billion to build the old V8/V10s, and the only reason Cosworth were still there was thanks to Mosley's deal making. We haven't had any other independent efforts since the turn of the century, and none of them will be coming back without a larger company funding them.

Edited by Fastcake, 22 September 2014 - 11:11.

[keiichi]

For the moment BMW is far more interested in Formula E: "In brief, BMW i and Formula E are a perfect match" 

http://www.fiaformul...-formula-e.aspx

 

Formula E will become a series open to different manufacturers in the near future - don't be surprised if BMW is one of them.

 

That's just regarding the partnership with the safety and medical cars. There's no mention there of BMW joining the field. Besides isn't Formula E a spec series? BMW wouldn't be developing a thing, just buying a team and a car equal to everyone else's. Also, Formula E doesn't have and probably won't have enough of a marketing impact as F1 and LMP1 have.

 

They returned to DTM and very successfully so, but I think BMW needs something bigger. They're probably just waiting to see how this new F1 regs develop and probably will be returning somewhere in the future.

 

I'd say this new age hybrid F1 goes well with the road car development philosophy of BMW nowadays and surelly the successfull return of Mercedes must be teasing BMW to some extent.

[scheivlak]

That's just regarding the partnership with the safety and medical cars. There's no mention there of BMW joining the field. Besides isn't Formula E a spec series? BMW wouldn't be developing a thing, just buying a team and a car equal to everyone else's.

Formula E is a spec series for the moment but the idea is to "unspec" FE within a few years, possibly already next season.

The possibility of BMW getting more involved, like as an engine supplier, was mentioned during the ITV broadcast.

 

It's very early days but I think Formula E can have far more impact publicity wise than e.g. LMP/WEC and more impact worldwide than DTM as well.

Edited by scheivlak, 22 September 2014 - 11:55.

[KWSN - DSM]

Nissan have a strategic partnership with Renault, I doubt they would enter Formula One if Renault are still around.

 

True that, the various big companies eating the smaller ones mean that some of those I think of as different are not. What do we have:

 

Ford is also partlyMazda, Lincoln, Jinangling

VW is also partly AUDI, Bently, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porche, SEAT, Skoda

FIAT is also partly Ferrari, Chrysler, Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Dodge, RAM, Jeep

Renault is also partly Dacia, Nissan

Peugeot is also partly Citroen

Citroen is also partly Peugeot

Tata is also partly Jaguar

BMW is also partly Rolls Royce

 

Guess we in theory should disregard a lot of those, however unless they start working out of existing engine shops already active in F1 then I will see them as 'new engine manufacturers' (except those who have been there before).

 

[keiichi]

Formula E is a spec series for the moment but the idea is to "unspec" FE within a few years, possibly already next season.

The possibility of BMW getting more involved, like as an engine supplier, was mentioned during the ITV broadcast.

 

It's very early days but I think Formula E can have far more impact publicity wise than e.g. LMP/WEC and more impact worldwide than DTM as well.

 

If it stops being a spec series in the near future I can imagine it getting very relevant marketing wise, probably surpassing DTM, but WEC might be a stretch.

 

Don't forget that the LMP1's also had a regulation change to make it more attractive for manufacturers and it seems to be working.

 

Let's see how it goes.

[Sash1]

 

I am surprised at the seemingly popularity of the LeMans style sports cars with their boring truck engines! Here in Oz everybody I talk too is underwhelmed at black smoke and flat exhaust notes. Though at least the manufacturers may be learning something usefull for practical engines.

 

Maybe you should watch it some time. Audi run diesels, which I have never seen put out black smoke ever. Toyota and Porsche run regular gas engine cars. Toyota a normal V8. Porsche a small turbo. The Toyota and Porsche do not have flat exhaust notes. Nissan will enter in 2015 in the LMP1 class with a different configuration than Audi, Toyota and Porsche. Their aim is zero emission, so maybe an even smaller turbo engine and more reliant on energy recovery.

[Sash1]

If it stops being a spec series in the near future I can imagine it getting very relevant marketing wise, probably surpassing DTM, but WEC might be a stretch.

 

Don't forget that the LMP1's also had a regulation change to make it more attractive for manufacturers and it seems to be working.

 

Let's see how it goes.

 

The great thing about LMP1 rules is that the rules aim for power output equallity and let the manufacturers decide with whatever configuration they think they can do that. So instead of desiging a pretty standard 1.6l V6 turbo with a relatively standard recovery system that you cannot change for years to come, LMP1 lets you experiment with the technology you want and does not limit you to change it all for next year if it doesn't work.

[f1RacingForever]

Are you nuts? MB, Honda ad Renault have all said they would not be participating if the formula had not gone the high tech route. Manufacturers with more primitive engine technology are either moving ahead with high tech or going broke.

Political posturing. That is all. of course much of the new tech becomes irrelevant with such restrictive regulations. Audi can't make use of their diesel tech because the regs don't permit it, neither can Mazda with their rotary engines. loosening up the pu regs and allowing different types of engines would make it more appealing. A diesel f1 car? Why not?