83 replies to this topic

[f1RacingForever]

They were not interested when the engines were simpler, nothing has changed to make F1 more appealing to them. 

allowing diesels might though. Audi would take notice as might bmw.

[KWSN - DSM]

allowing diesels might though. Audi would take notice as might bmw.

 

Engines have been spec to an extent since the mandate on number of cylinders, making it interesting for the manufacturers would be open it up to what ever they want with a conversion between the various types there used to be with a 3 liter normally aspirated / 1.5 liter turbo. I fully understand that the end result was that the turbos were superior i.e. the conversion was not correct, it did however take the first Turbo engined car from 1977 to 1979 before they won their first race, it took from 1977 until 1983 before the World Champion was turbo powered.

 

I am certain the conversions would be wrong, just re-set them then between seasons. If that mean the manufacturer have ti\o convert an engine from 800ccto 8000cc so be it. Allow Turbo, Wankel, Diesel, Wind, Electric. If the currently closed Franchise of F1 was reverted to the previous open one, a lot of the 'problems' the sport face would be gone.

 

[f1RacingForever]

Engines have been spec to an extent since the mandate on number of cylinders, making it interesting for the manufacturers would be open it up to what ever they want with a conversion between the various types there used to be with a 3 liter normally aspirated / 1.5 liter turbo. I fully understand that the end result was that the turbos were superior i.e. the conversion was not correct, it did however take the first Turbo engined car from 1977 to 1979 before they won their first race, it took from 1977 until 1983 before the World Champion was turbo powered.

I am certain the conversions would be wrong, just re-set them then between seasons. If that mean the manufacturer have ti\o convert an engine from 800ccto 8000cc so be it. Allow Turbo, Wankel, Diesel, Wind, Electric. If the currently closed Franchise of F1 was reverted to the previous open one, a lot of the 'problems' the sport face would be gone.

Wind... :-D yeah I agree, allowing many different engines would be interesting. I would be in favor of this.

[DanardiF1]

A  very interesting post

 

Why is the target market of Hyundai not in line with F1's?

 

 

Large-volume good quality cars that don't prioritise hybrid technology are what Hyundai are concentrating on now, as whilst they have caught up massively in quality to other large-volume manufacturers they are still perhaps a few years back on the technology front. They don't have anything like the engineering and research capacity of Toyota or Nissan or any of the biggest players, and that means that F1 and/or similar level programs are just out of their reach right now. They have the might to invest in it, but not the brand cachet or real reason to do so.

 

Hyundai is the 4th biggest manufacturer by volume, but their revenues don't even break them into the top 8 where 5 of the top 8 companies have major investments in F1/WEC projects because of either premium brand marketing and/or technology research and marketing. Hyundai have some way to go yet before F1 or WEC becomes something worth pursuing.

[DanardiF1]

I don't know, but why should Geely not have a partner like Cosworth to build their F1 engines. Even Mercedes is not building their engines at home...
 

 

But like Hyundai but on an even smaller scale... why would Geely need an F1 program at all when their cars are imitative crapboxes sold in parts of the world where the dream of owning a car at all is greater than the dream of owning a good car...

 

Producing lots of cars is not indicator of being a big enough car company to want to invest in a major motorsport program (and Geely is not even the biggest producer in China, with SAIC being way ahead of them).

 

Mercedes owns Brixworth and produces nothing but Mercedes powerplants there... whether it is in Germany or not matters little to companies as big as Daimler...

Edited by DanardiF1, 23 September 2014 - 05:27.

[KWSN - DSM]

So the engine regulations have gone like this:

1947 - 1953 - 4.5 L atmospheric and 1.5 L supercharged engines
1954 - 1960 - 2.5 L 750 cc supercharged
1961 - 1965 - 1.5 L atmospheric
1966 - 1986 - 3.0 L atmospheric and 1.5 L compressed
1987 - 1988 - 3.5 L atmospheric and 1.5 L turbo
1989 - 1994 - 3.5 L atmospheric
1995 - 2005 - 3.0 L atmospheric

2006 - 2013 - 2.4 L atmospheric 8 cylinder engine, with 2 inlet and 2 outlet valves per cylinder, minimum weight of 95 kgs. Crankcase had to be made from cast or wrought aluminum. The crankshaft and camshafts had to be made from an iron alloy, pistons from an aluminium alloy and valves from alloys based on iron, nickel, cobalt or titanium.
2014 - 2020 - 1.6 litre V6 turbo engines including energy recovery systems.

 

Last two iterations are what I would argue a reason for manufacturers NOT being interested in contesting F1 as am engine manufacturer, and since F1 is now a closed franchise they can not enter as a constructor (there may be a spot left for 1 team not sure). Since 2006 the innovation and pinnacle of technology F1 drums it's breast about have not been the truth.

 

 

[EvilPhil II]

Only manufacturer who could enter F1 is Toyota. Pretty much every other manufacturer group is already represented besides Ford and VW Group (both of which will never (re)enter). 

[MikeV1987]

Bugatti is VW's money pit, therefor it should also be a formula 1 team 

[SenorSjon]

So the engine regulations have gone like this:

1947 - 1953 - 4.5 L atmospheric and 1.5 L supercharged engines
1954 - 1960 - 2.5 L 750 cc supercharged
1961 - 1965 - 1.5 L atmospheric
1966 - 1986 - 3.0 L atmospheric and 1.5 L compressed
1987 - 1988 - 3.5 L atmospheric and 1.5 L turbo
1989 - 1994 - 3.5 L atmospheric
1995 - 2005 - 3.0 L atmospheric

2006 - 2013 - 2.4 L atmospheric 8 cylinder engine, with 2 inlet and 2 outlet valves per cylinder, minimum weight of 95 kgs. Crankcase had to be made from cast or wrought aluminum. The crankshaft and camshafts had to be made from an iron alloy, pistons from an aluminium alloy and valves from alloys based on iron, nickel, cobalt or titanium.
2014 - 2020 - 1.6 litre V6 turbo engines including energy recovery systems.

 

Last two iterations are what I would argue a reason for manufacturers NOT being interested in contesting F1 as am engine manufacturer, and since F1 is now a closed franchise they can not enter as a constructor (there may be a spot left for 1 team not sure). Since 2006 the innovation and pinnacle of technology F1 drums it's breast about have not been the truth.

 

 

 

So true. I recon that is also a reason why Honda, BMW and Toyota left only a few years after the '06 rules. Especially after the clampdown on further development, you could hardly do anything to improve the engine. Now we have the other way around. Mercedes hit jackpot and the others need to wait a whole season. Imagine if we did the same to cars. Australia version is the car you have for the whole year. You get a 10 place grid penalty if you use more than five of any given bodywork part. So when your sixth wing is damaged, you get a grid penalty. That is the same way the engine rules are now.

[Petroltorque]

In all probability it will be Cosworth that return to the fray in the short term. Their £12 million factory extension is under development and they have a prototype design on the books. In reality Cosworth offering an affordable power train is the last hope for cash strapped outfits.

[sopa]

Well, as people have said, it is pretty hard to see a mass-influx of other manufacturers into F1. It is a huge cost (as we are talking about engine development) and you have to be supremely good and pump a lot of money into the project if you want to succeed. And F1's popularity is on decline currently anyway...

 

Depends on the way F1 develops in the future. But there are not many options to choose from. Interestingly I can see Toyota having an interest in F1 one day again, especially as F1 develops more in the direction of hybrid, green and any kind of electric technology. I also can see BMW re-entering one day. They have been like Honda or Renault - sometimes in F1, sometimes not. They have a sporty image and they are bound to race somewhere. Currently in DTM, but let's see, what the future brings.

 

People like to speculate a lot about traditional sportscar brands (be it Bugatti, Lamborghini), but how often have they really come and developed their own engine? Lamborghini was in the 80s and 90s, but nowadays is a completely different situation. Sometimes they have bought a team, like sportscar manufacturer Spyker did in 2007, but it was only for a single year and at the back of the field. Building their own engine would have been way too much effort for them.

 

Of course a giant mother company could be behind the project (VW for Bugatti/Lambo, Tata for Jaguar, or whatever), but I think developing an F1 engine is such a major project that were those corporation to enter F1, they would race under some of the major brands to push that one, not smaller brands. I.e VW would race with Audi; Toyota races under the name of Toyota, not Lexus, etc.

[scheivlak]

So the engine regulations have gone like this:

1947 - 1953 - 4.5 L atmospheric and 1.5 L supercharged engines
1954 - 1960 - 2.5 L 750 cc supercharged
1961 - 1965 - 1.5 L atmospheric
1966 - 1986 - 3.0 L atmospheric and 1.5 L compressed
1987 - 1988 - 3.5 L atmospheric and 1.5 L turbo
1989 - 1994 - 3.5 L atmospheric
1995 - 2005 - 3.0 L atmospheric
 

 

A few things can be added;

1966-1981 gas turbine (Lotus 56B!, 1971) and Wankel engines were also possible under certain regulations

1981 - maximum number of cylinders for 3.0 L atmo: 12 

2000 - engines must be 10 cylinder (there were talks of Toyota and Ferrari going for 12 which might lead to a development race) - designs of those V10s were already converging at the end of that 3.0 litre era in 2005

2006 - 3.0 litre V10 also accepted with max rev of 16.000 (Toro Rosso)

[DanardiF1]

In all probability it will be Cosworth that return to the fray in the short term. Their £12 million factory extension is under development and they have a prototype design on the books. In reality Cosworth offering an affordable power train is the last hope for cash strapped outfits.

 

I remember seeing rumours about somebody wanting to buy Cosworth... did anything come of that?

[Petroltorque]

Cosworth have raised more investment themselves. Rumours persist that Ecclestone has invested in the engine program much like Moseley did with their V8 package.

[KWSN - DSM]

Cosworth have raised more investment themselves. Rumours persist that Ecclestone has invested in the engine program much like Moseley did with their V8 package.

 

But their last endeavour was there, but was not really a competitive choice, what makes us think that they now can battle the might of Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari and Honda?

 

[DanardiF1]

Their last effort wasn't so bad, it was the advent of the team-driven and aerodynamics based blown exhausts that killed their competitive edge... They were the first to get to 20k revs I believe so they weren't exactly short of knowhow on the ICE front... It was the software and customer-tailoring to EBD concepts they fell behind on.

[Eff One 2002]

 safety car standing starts

That asinine bullshit still isn't being implemented next year, is it? Haven't they woken up to themselves on that one?

[Petroltorque]

But their last endeavour was there, but was not really a competitive choice, what makes us think that they now can battle the might of Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari and Honda?
 

Cosworth will not be there to outspend the manufacturers. If they can provide a power unit that is within a second of the manufacturers at 2/3 the cost that represents a significant saving for small teams. Buying a power train from Renault has not helped Caterham has it? The money they save could be spent on chassis tech or even debt reduction.

Edited by Petroltorque, 27 September 2014 - 05:25.

[aguri]

In order for Cosworth to be competitive they need to be supplying at least 4-5 teams. In an ideal world every team that wasn't a works team or a satellite team would be using a cosworth. So you'd have Lotus, Caterham, Williams, FI and Sauber all using the Cosworth and sharing the engine R and D costs between them.  

[Risil]

That asinine bullshit still isn't being implemented next year, is it? Haven't they woken up to themselves on that one?

 

Nobody knows. And I mean nobody.

[Risil]

In order for Cosworth to be competitive they need to be supplying at least 4-5 teams. In an ideal world every team that wasn't a works team or a satellite team would be using a cosworth. So you'd have Lotus, Caterham, Williams, FI and Sauber all using the Cosworth and sharing the engine R and D costs between them.  

 

Wasn't that Max Mosley's plan in 2009? Introduce 3 budget-capped new teams on the condition that they run Cosworth engines, guaranteeing them enough economy-of-scale to make the engine programme worthwhile?

 

I guess it didn't really work but in the following five years no one's come up with a better plan.

[Clatter]

But their last endeavour was there, but was not really a competitive choice, what makes us think that they now can battle the might of Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari and Honda?

 

They also were not in competitive teams. Even championship winning engines look poor when installed in backmarker teams.

[Mohican]

From 2016 the Honda engine will no longer be exclusive to McLaren; and even incl Haas it is difficult to see more than the current number of teams on the grid by then - possibly fewer, in fact.
This makes it hard to see the viability of a fifth PU supplier; business case appears to be lacking both in terms of customers/partners and cost.

This could of course change with the possible exit of one or more of the existing manufacturers, but it comes back to the hopeless business model of F1 as usual.

[SealTheDiffuser]

suppliers of electric motors

[aguri]

Wasn't that Max Mosley's plan in 2009? Introduce 3 budget-capped new teams on the condition that they run Cosworth engines, guaranteeing them enough economy-of-scale to make the engine programme worthwhile?

 

I guess it didn't really work but in the following five years no one's come up with a better plan.

 

Mosley went about it entirely the wrong way. He should have just made engine manufacturer supply rules stricter by mandating customer and works teams receive exactly the same spec engines at the same time, and also by placing a price ceiling on what manufacturers can charge for their PU. 

 

The above two measures would have resulted in the manufacturers only wanting to supply works teams and maybe a second team, whilst the rest of the grid would have moved towards an independent engine like the Cosworth.  

[HistoryFan]

True that, the various big companies eating the smaller ones mean that some of those I think of as different are not. What do we have:

 

Ford is also partlyMazda, Lincoln, Jinangling

VW is also partly AUDI, Bently, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porche, SEAT, Skoda

FIAT is also partly Ferrari, Chrysler, Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Dodge, RAM, Jeep

Renault is also partly Dacia, Nissan

Peugeot is also partly Citroen

Citroen is also partly Peugeot

Tata is also partly Jaguar

BMW is also partly Rolls Royce

 

Guess we in theory should disregard a lot of those, however unless they start working out of existing engine shops already active in F1 then I will see them as 'new engine manufacturers' (except those who have been there before).

 

 

We have also Chevrolet and GM - perhaps Haas can convince an American company to join him in F1 in future?

 

[Tuxy]

Really...

 

F1 and sportscar racing need to converge under the banner of one series.  Each are their own expressions of the pursuit of speed.

 

F1 (be nature) is not accessible to manufacturers who want to compete, and VW is a prime example of this.  Money is not the limiting factor in their case, it's freedom of expression; or lack-their-of.  Someone went on record saying sportscar racing has more creative freedom to design.  F1 is shackled by tradition, and meglo-greedy-dinosaurs that are more interested in sustaining their comfort level and profits.

 

I would like to see consortium (i.e. Auto Union) or crowd-funded racing / engine programs as the norm.  This way more people and fans can contribute and be connected to the sport they love.

 

[Fatgadget]

suppliers of electric motors

Indeed! GEC Westinghouse and Bafang springs to mind!!

[tmekt]

Honestly, if the engine development freeze continues to 2020 it's more likely that manufacturers start pulling out rather than come in.

[scheivlak]

Honestly, if the engine development freeze continues to 2020 it's more likely that manufacturers start pulling out rather than come in.

There is no engine development freeze.

[SenorSjon]

So the Mercedes domination was in a parallel universe?

[scheivlak]

There is no freeze, and certainly not until 2020. It's just that hardware development is regulated and only open between the seasons.

 

Mercedes domination is not a result of a freeze but of better development before the start of the season. Renault especially have caught up quite a bit thanks to developing their software. Nobody knows what would have happened if the hardware stayed unfrozen during this season, it could well have led to an even bigger advantage for Mercedes.

[tmekt]

There is no engine development freeze.

I might have worded my post in a slightly incorrect way but there most certainly is, the engines were homologated on Feb 28 and there hasn't been performance related development in the power units since then. A percentage of last years power unit is carried to the next season as it is but they can make changes in half of the remaining components every of off-season. That will be 48 % of the total power unit for 2015, 38 % for 2016, etc. For 2019, already 95 % of the power unit is completely frozen from performance related development.

Merc's competitors might catch them a little, a lot, or the gap might increase in 2015, we don't know that yet, but the point is that if the advantage remains significant and they can't develop to engines freely enough to catch up, thus not being in control to how their engine performs, which might lead to manufacturers pulling out. No-one wants to drag their brand in mud.

Edited by tmekt, 15 October 2014 - 21:04.

[onewingedangel]

If the engines don't converge on performance I'm sure we will see some equalisation despite what is written in the current regulations.