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BRM...H-16 and Can Am


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#1 hillmotorsports

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 11:48

I know Doug Nye's vol 4 is slated to cover these 2 topics...eventually (?)... and if the previous volumes are any indication they should be definitive in their completeness, but am wondering what others on the forum might be able to share....

I was lucky enough to attend Expo '67 in Montreal as a teenager (everyone from my high school made the 100 mile trip by bus) and was thrilled to see the BRM H-16 F1 car posed vertically against a wall. Was always curious what ever happened to this car at the end of the exposition when the British pavilion was dismantled.
Anyone know of any survivors of this car model or engine?

Similarly, saw BRM's Can Am cars at speed in the heyday of the series. What became of them?

Edited by hillmotorsports, 21 September 2014 - 11:51.


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#2 Vitesse2

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 13:40

The car shown at Expo 67 was the one-off P109, which never raced and was (IIRC) bullt as a display model only. It, and all four raced H16s (three P83s and the P115) still exist: two P83s were converted to run in F5000 - one with a Ford engine and one with a Rover - with a predictable lack of success!

 

One rather tired-looking chassis (perhaps the P109?) was on display at the now-closed Totnes Motor Museum in the mid-80s. Only time I ever saw one in the metal.

 

You can find chassis histories on Old Racing Cars. Perhaps Allen might even chip in with more info ...

 

http://www.oldracing...hp?MarqueID=BRM



#3 D28

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 14:37

For information on the Can-Am cars, driven by George Eaton, Pedro Rodriguez and others, see the thread from Aug 2008 here: 

 

 

BRM Can-Am cars



#4 hillmotorsports

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 18:46

Thanks guys.

Allen's site only seems to cover the single seat era of Can AM cars, not the original format where the BRMs ran.

D28...the link got lost. Will try a search.

#5 kayemod

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 18:52

For information on the Can-Am cars, driven by George Eaton, Pedro Rodriguez and others, see the thread from Aug 2008 here: 

 

 

BRM Can-Am cars

But few of us regarded them as 'proper' BRMs at the time, not with Chevy power anyway.



#6 Tim Murray

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 19:00

This link to the BRM Can Am thread should work:

http://forums.autosp...rm-can-am-cars/

#7 hillmotorsports

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 19:27

But few of us regarded them as 'proper' BRMs at the time, not with Chevy power anyway.

Maybe they should have bored and stroked the H-16.....
Would that have needed 4 turbos, one for each exhaust bank?
I doubt even Penske and Donahue could made that work...

But purists could have called it a "proper" BRM.

Edited by hillmotorsports, 21 September 2014 - 19:29.


#8 D28

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 19:32

But few of us regarded them as 'proper' BRMs at the time, not with Chevy power anyway.

I wondered that at the time. Still the George Eaton Castrol liveried model debuted at Mosport in 1970 prominently had BRM on its flank.It was also entered by British Racing Motors. The car looked spectacular whatever the actual performance. Not great, though Eaton managed a 3rd at St Jovite, 2 laps down. It is hard to imagine which BRM motor would have improved performance; without Chevy power it would have been even more off the pace. That was the Can-Am story until Porsche got involved.


Edited by D28, 21 September 2014 - 20:13.


#9 hillmotorsports

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 20:38

Thanks for the link Tim.
That thread certainly answered a lot of questions.
Nice to see/hear that the Hepworths are proceeding with the resurrection of such a piece of history.

In spite of my comments I have always been a keen observer/fan of the BRM marque, spent hours hanging around their garages at the Can Am and grand prix at Mosport, Mont Tremblant, and Watkins Glen. I feel sorry for present fans, especially the younger ones, who will never get the "up-close-personal" exposure to the cars, personnel, and drivers due to all the security seemingly necessary today. I guess we fans are victims of the success of the various series...if the racing is good it attracts more fans. More fans means more security, which then limits the fan's access.

Sorry for the rant...guess I am showing my age, wishing to roll back time. Can we keep the car/track safety of today please?

#10 D28

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 01:22

Maybe they should have bored and stroked the H-16.....
Would that have needed 4 turbos, one for each exhaust bank?
I doubt even Penske and Donahue could made that work...

But purists could have called it a "proper" BRM.

Did you by chance happen to be present at Watkins Glen 1966, to see Jim Clark give the H-16 its only victory, (in the back of a Lotus)?

 

No amount of stroking or boosting of that engine could ever make it competitive with a simple Chevy power unit. Too complicated by half.



#11 RCH

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 06:48

Wasn't the original plan that the Can Am BRMs should use Rolls Royce engines?



#12 D28

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 14:45

Wasn't the original plan that the Can Am BRMs should use Rolls Royce engines?

Can't find any mention of this. The sobering reality was that Chevy power very reliable and comparatively cheap was totally dominant in Can-Am. If 7 litres of Ferrai racing engine wasn't competitive, it is hard to imagine what would be. The Ferrari wasn't that far off the pace; it was competitive with the previous year's McLaren. With a bit of development and some serious factory support the car could have been a contender.As it was Chris Amon ran a shoestring team with very little support. Still the largest engined Ferrari I know of, it sounded great.



#13 mfd

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 15:04

You should read Tony Southgate's excellent book where he describes working for BRM & the design of the Can Am cars. As he's a Brit & living at the time in Bourne with Chevy based engines built up at Folkingham, I'd think they qualify as being BRM!

 

The H16 once on display at the Totnes museum was the P115. Now owned by Richard Mille.

Both the converted P83 were re-fitted with H16 engines, one if not two of them still living at Donington. The third is at Caistor in East Anglia & I believe the P109 is in Australia also with an engine.

 

Corrections welcome of course :yawnface:


Edited by mfd, 22 September 2014 - 15:17.


#14 alansart

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 15:28

Nothing to do with BRM but am I right in thinking that Porsche played around with a Flat 16 in a 917 for Can Am use before going down the Turbo route?



#15 Tim Murray

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 15:49

Yes indeed, and the prototype containing the Flat-16 engine was at this year's Festival of Speed. Here's a link to TNFer Arttidesco's recent blog item on the car, including photos:

http://www.psychoont...917-pa-917-027/

#16 D28

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 16:00

Nothing to do with BRM but am I right in thinking that Porsche played around with a Flat 16 in a 917 for Can Am use before going down the Turbo route?

Yes, here is a link to an existing car: Turbo boosted 12 cyl offered even more power.

http://www.roadandtr...r-madness-27267



#17 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 23:22

Can't find any mention of this. The sobering reality was that Chevy power very reliable and comparatively cheap was totally dominant in Can-Am. If 7 litres of Ferrai racing engine wasn't competitive, it is hard to imagine what would be. The Ferrari wasn't that far off the pace; it was competitive with the previous year's McLaren. With a bit of development and some serious factory support the car could have been a contender.As it was Chris Amon ran a shoestring team with very little support. Still the largest engined Ferrari I know of, it sounded great.

The Brits baffling themselves with BS and wasting a lot of money. I suspect a 427 Chev was one tenth of the price of the BRM, and finished races too. At the front. I suspect even a small block would have out run the 16 cylinder nightmare. For even less money!



#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 23:51

The BRM Can-Am car did use a Chevy...

Read the the previous posts carefully, it even scored a place you'll find.

#19 mfd

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 00:30

That's a strange post, there's three or four different statements, none of which make sense :confused:



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#20 Peter Morley

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 10:16

Two H-16 F1s ended up in Australia, for a while:

P83, 8301 was sold by BRM to Colin Crabbe who fitted a GT40 Ford engine & ZF gearbox for F5000 and later ended up in the Australian York Motor museum.

P109, which never raced, was exhibited at the Montreal Expo and later ended up in the York Motor Museum, complete with engine & gearbox (which might not have been internally complete).

Both of these were bought by Andy Middlehurst who needed an engine and gearbox for the US GP winning Lotus 43.

At the time they were offered for sale in the UK without the H-16 engine or gearbox, but they might not have sold - the engine and gearbox have since been rebuilt and are running in the 43.

 

P83, 8302 was (is?) in the Donington collection, they also had (have?) the unraced (?) development 4 valve engine.

 

P83, 8303 is in the Caister museum, they also have a 2nd H-16 engine (the US GP winner apparently) on display.

 

P115, the lightweight car was raced in historics by Peter Hannen and apparently now belongs to Richard Mille.



#21 Doug Nye

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 15:46

BRM's engine department did quite a lot of development work on their Chevy V8 CanAm engines, and also did contract Chevy V8 development and assembly for eventual use by Chaparral. The CanAm programme and the dedicated race team itself was run on the shortest of shoe-strings and was very much a poor relation to the Formula 1 programme... The cars themselves were pretty good.

 

DCN



#22 arttidesco

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 22:32

Yes indeed, and the prototype containing the Flat-16 engine was at this year's Festival of Speed. Here's a link to TNFer Arttidesco's recent blog item on the car, including photos:

http://www.psychoont...917-pa-917-027/

 

Thanks for the heads up Tim, I also did something on the P154 last year  :blush: 



#23 BRG

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 14:55

BRM's engine department did quite a lot of development work on their Chevy V8 CanAm engines, and also did contract Chevy V8 development and assembly for eventual use by Chaparral. The CanAm programme and the dedicated race team itself was run on the shortest of shoe-strings and was very much a poor relation to the Formula 1 programme... The cars themselves were pretty good.

 

DCN

It begs the question of why BRM went to Can-Am at all especially when the F1 effort was perhaps already in decline (or is that viewed in hindsight!)?  Or did the dilution of effort lead to the decline in F1?



#24 mfd

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 18:16

I think you are using too much hindsight - although it did start to unravel through 72 & 73, in 1970/71 it's arguable they were just as successful in F1 as Ferrari. Discuss?

I'm sure the Can Am project wasn't as successful as McLaren's effort but there was the hook of rich pickings in the US. 



#25 hillmotorsports

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 21:01

I think you are using too much hindsight - although it did start to unravel through 72 & 73, in 1970/71 it's arguable they were just as successful in F1 as Ferrari. Discuss?

I'm sure the Can Am project wasn't as successful as McLaren's effort but there was the hook of rich pickings in the US.


Too many times I am reminded of my grandfather's words....
"If our foresight was half as good as our hindsight we'd be better off by a damned sight!"
And the expression seems to fit here.

Too bad they were late to the party. By the time they jumped in the handwriting was on the wall for the series: McLaren had the field covered, to the point others were losing interest. Then Porsche knocked everyone out of contention and even McLaren left.

You have to wonder what took them so long.

Edited by hillmotorsports, 24 September 2014 - 21:08.


#26 E1pix

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 04:20

Losing the greatest series of my youth was a damned shame. But there was still F5000... until SCCA thought adding on fenders could bring back Can-Am luster.

Two big misses.

#27 RA Historian

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 13:08

....but there was the hook of rich pickings in the US. 

And there you have it. At that time the money to be won in the Can Am was greater than in F-1,and that was a giant lure.

Tom



#28 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 15:12

Didn't the BRM Can-Am car also run in Europe?

The Interserie races... driving one of those beasts at the Nurburgring must have been a real treat!

#29 mfd

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 16:38

The P167 ran in the Interserie & Howden Ganley won both heats at the 'ring in 1972 against various M8 McLarens & Porsche 917.

 

In Tony Southgate's book he does admit to the P154 being a bit of a shed, but was happier to put things right with the P167


Edited by mfd, 25 September 2014 - 16:39.


#30 Doug Nye

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 17:45

Howden is watching this thread and he's always been extremely complimentary about the car per se... Matters such as engine, gearbox and internal team politics/attitudes notwithstanding.

 

Tee-hee.

 

DCN



#31 group7

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 23:56

going along with MFD's & RAhistorian's comments above. I quote bruce's from the cockpit, autosport, november 4th 1966 " I reckon we've collected more prize money in this series (can-am) so far than we could have won in three years racing in england"

 

group7



#32 hillmotorsports

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:18

Wow....lots of information!
Thank you all.

Was hoping to goad/bait Mr Nye into updating the vol 4 progress but seems he slipped my hook!

#33 arttidesco

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 12:02

Wow....lots of information!
Thank you all.

Was hoping to goad/bait Mr Nye into updating the vol 4 progress but seems he slipped my hook!

 

I wonder if a direct question might help.

 

Dear Mr Nye any progress to report on BRM Vol.4 ?



#34 Doug Nye

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 18:29

Very little in recent months but we have advanced slightly from a year ago.  Thank you for your interest...and patience.  It is very much worth doing, but a story of eventual decline and fall for a team I so much admired is not much fun to write...

 

DCN



#35 hillmotorsports

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 01:37

Understandable Doug, almost like finding out who Santa Claus really was... Still, even today it is tough to maintain standing, look at Horner and Red Bull, Ron Denis and McLaren, Ferrari...
Some things are constants: it's never been easy to stay at the top in any sport.

Great to hear that the project is still going ahead though. Not seeing vol 4, after waiting all these years, would be like seeing your favourite tv show not return for a new season, never knowing if the hero survived the cliff-hanger at the end of last season!

Steady on mate, it 'll all come good! And your readers will appreciate it all the more after the wait.

Edited by hillmotorsports, 07 October 2014 - 01:43.


#36 Doug Nye

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 13:08

You are most kind. I have a debt of honour to my long-suffering publisher, John Blunsden, to extract digit and get it done. I must do it, but writing that line a million times is less onerous than trying (again) to dot every i, cross every t and do the V4 job properly to round out the saga.  It takes a lot to wrap my ageing brain around it all...

 

DCN



#37 hillmotorsports

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 13:43

If I were closer I would gladly step up to assist.
Sadly I am on the wrong (?) side of the pond.
That said, if there is something to be done from here please feel free....

Paul Hill
Morrisburg Ontario
Canada