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Troubled Targa


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#51 Martyn Hey

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 13:23

Exploring Floriopoli - the stands, inside the pits, the bridge in 2011.

The faded lettering evocative reminders of the past; the buildings now covered in banners of period graphics, advertising etc to convey the atmosphere I suppose.

 

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Edited by Martyn Hey, 01 June 2016 - 13:27.


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#52 Martyn Hey

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 13:32

Out in the hills, road in pretty good condition 5 years back

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Bivio Polizzi

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Intriguing graffiti - the formula for Vaccarella to win? What is 'luz' ?

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Just realised probably Luz = Lu(dovico) Scarfiotti...?


Edited by Martyn Hey, 01 June 2016 - 14:46.


#53 Vitesse2

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 23:20

Posted on behalf of DCN. All pictures strictly © GP Library.

 

Just back from a few days in Sicily during which we explored the Piccolo and Medio Madonie circuits, yet again…
 
Just above Cerda - about 5 miles from the old pits/start area at Floriopoli - we encountered road closure signs, as here:
 
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We drove through regardless, and crept for many miles over splits, subsidence, broken surfaces, potholes and road-edge collapses…see below…
 
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…for the next 5 or 6 miles (at least), before the surface improved, the road became more stable and we drove on through this lovely stretch approaching the Bivio (junction) Sclafani Bagni.
 
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We drove on towards Caltavuturo, past the Tandoi and Masetti memorial stones, then round the valley-head 180 just below the village, and down right-handed round ‘Back to Britain in a Box’ - the blind right-hander so-christened by Hawthorn and Collins, and downhill towards the valley bottom at Scillato. We passed the area where Brian Redman had his Porsche 908/3 fire in 1971, but then rounded a corner to find the road entirely blocked by a high-vis orange fence backed by a mound of earth and rubble tipped right across from bank to ditch.  We had to turn around and go back to Caltavuturo, and head out on the pre-war Medio Madonie circuit road towards Castellana, taking the left turn before that town to go over the ridges to Polizzi Generosa.  There we found the ancient Roman aqueduct against which the Medio Madonie halfway point service depots used to be set-up.  As here…
 
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Eventually we returned to rejoin the Piccolo Madonie at Bivio Polizzi, then drove down the Piccolo route against race direction to get back to Scillato, and the autostrada in the bottom of the valley, just below the blockage we had found when approaching this section from the opposite end.  First we found the old Bivio La Manna bridge under the autostrada, built here around 1969-70.
 
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The old Piccolo Madonie approached on the road flanked by the stone retaining wall right background, then turned 90-left onto this bridge, came to where I took this shot last Thursday, and then turned 90-left again to lead away up the hill to my right, leading up to the Bivio Polizzi junction, high on its mountainside.  See the two autostrada viaduct piers on the left?  Well here’s how it looks if you then walk straight ahead, across this old abandoned bridge, and look left, close up…

 

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That’s right, the southbound Autostrada viaduct has collapsed and been removed… Here’s the view the other way…  Subsidence and a landslip undermined the bridge piers, and this entire section has been removed. 

 

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 Meanwhile, away to the left, the hillside down which the Piccolo course used to descend now looks like this…  The brown area is a displaced landslip, jumbled with rubble and broken tarmac from the historic circuit.  If you drive up to it you find another dayglo plastic fence barring the way, and then...

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This disaster…
 
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And here are former drivers/entrants Andrew Fletcher (background), Matt Spitzley, Neil Corner and Paul Vestey surveying the scene in genuine dismay…
 
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#54 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 09:54

Trying to imagine what that place was like when they raced there. I get the feeling the Isle of Man is a lot easier,, and safer too.

How did they get pukka Sports Cars, even of that period around there, and how did they pass? Narrow undulating roads that even then I guess were prone for slippage.

I suspect they could recreate some of it around Tasmania,, or New Zealand complete with slips! Both with [cooler] scenery.



#55 Doug Nye

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 16:53

I don't think the Isle of Man Mountain course could really be described as being 'easier', because although much less twisty for much the way it is so very, very, very much faster - Leo Kinnunen's 1970 Targa lap record in the Gulf-Porsche 908/3 was 33mins 36secs for the 44 miles, which is around 79.9mph.  In contrast John McGuinness's IoM Mountain Circuit lap record on the Honda CBR1000RR in 2015 was in 17mins 3secs for the 37.7-mile circuit...at 132.701mph (Lawks Awmighty!)...  What was the 1970 IoM lap record?

 

The often-forgotten feature of the Targa course, however, is the 3-mile long Buornfornello Straight, along the coast.  To be competitive cars with 5-speed gearboxes ran a close-ratio bottom four cluster, then a huge gap to an immensely long overdrive 5th - good on a Porsche 917, GT40, Lola T70GT, Ferrari P3/4 etc for a good 185-190mph.

 

If anybody's interested, take a look at the Buonfornello on Google Earth street view...it starts on the SS113 road, about here, just after the slip road comes down from Campofelice town...east of Solfarelli, on the Viale dell Tribune.  Sorry, but I am a self-confessed Targa Bore.

 

 

 

DCN



#56 Vitesse2

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 17:29

Can't find a lap record for that era, but Malcolm Uphill's winning average speed in the 1970 750cc Production race was 97.71mph. Agostini won both the Junior and Senior TTs at a shade over 101mph on an MV Agusta - in each case by a margin of five minutes! About 97-98mph seems to have been the best that ordinary mortals could achieve, even on a 'pure' racing machine.

 

So the Mountain was maybe 25% faster again than Madonie.



#57 kayemod

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 18:36

I don't think the Isle of Man Mountain course could really be described as being 'easier', because although much less twisty for much the way it is so very, very, very much faster - Leo Kinnunen's 1970 Targa lap record in the Gulf-Porsche 908/3 was 33mins 36secs for the 44 miles, which is around 79.9mph.  In contrast John McGuinness's IoM Mountain Circuit lap record on the Honda CBR1000RR in 2015 was in 17mins 3secs for the 37.7-mile circuit...at 132.701mph (Lawks Awmighty!)...  What was the 1970 IoM lap record?

 

DCN

 

Three-time British Rally champion Mark Higgins achieved a new record car lap of the Isle of Man circuit last week at an average a fraction under 129mph. Some will recall that Tony Pond managed the first 100mph car lap in a not far from standard Rover 827 Vitesse back in 1990. What makes Mark Higgins’achievement particularly impressive is that he did the deed in road-legal Subaru Impreza, though the car had a larger than standard turbo and had almost 600hp, and it used race slicks. Mark only managed two runs, and reckoned he could have passed 130mph easily with a third. Top biker Mike Dunlop got a new 2016 bike lap record at 134 in the Seniors race, he was getting over 200 on the long straights, while Mark could only get to 170, which is of course evidence of the car’s better braking and cornering ability. Mark is a rally driver, a very good one of course, but just think what a top racing driver could achieve, even in a museum piece (sorry!) like a Porsche 908. A vast amount of time and money has been spent by the Manx Government on their TT course, surface smoothed, bends cambered etc, of course it's about as far removed from Sicily's roads as it's possible to get, has to be experienced to be believed, but quite a performance all the same.


Edited by kayemod, 13 June 2016 - 18:37.


#58 Doug Nye

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 20:39

Very creditable performance indeed by Mark Higgins.  Oh my, what would a Le Mans Audi or a Formula 1 Mercedes make of it all...? Many of my old colleagues would have given anything to see such a thing happen...   :love:

 

DCN



#59 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 09:20

I think if they ever got the Targa venue up and running again it would be only for tarmac rally cars. Which probably be  will faster than those 70s sporties, suspension travel and traction over those lumpy twisty bits. Though about 40mph slower in  a straight line. It would be nice to see the venue function again.

 

Modern Sports Cars as has been said would last about half a lap with suspension travel and ride height, and probably try to go into orbit on the faster bits.



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#60 kayemod

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 10:07

I think if they ever got the Targa venue up and running again it would be only for tarmac rally cars. Which probably be  will faster than those 70s sporties, suspension travel and traction over those lumpy twisty bits. Though about 40mph slower in  a straight line. It would be nice to see the venue function again.

 

Modern Sports Cars as has been said would last about half a lap with suspension travel and ride height, and probably try to go into orbit on the faster bits.

 

Almost certainly true for obvious reasons. As a taster, here's Mark Higgins taking a car load of journalists around the course in a standard road-going Impreza this year, many interesting bits from Mark in his commentary, including his observation that a proper race car couldn't manage to get around at racing speeds.

 

 

This is an impressive display of controlled hooligan driving on closed roads. Mark was driving solo on his record run, and no doubt a driver's-eye view of this is being prepared at this moment, coming to a You Tube list near you very soon. Although he's only managing "fast road" speeds here, it's a good illustration of what the roads are like. What a pity film cameras were huge and unwieldy things weighing as much as a good sized human body back in the days the Targa was still being run as a proper race, imagine a driver's eye You Tube view from Leo Kinnunen's Porsche on his record lap.


Edited by kayemod, 14 June 2016 - 10:07.


#61 kayemod

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 12:50

Here it is at last, the driver's-eye view of Mark Higgins' great almost 129mph IoM lap on public roads.

 

http://www.autocar.c...-TT-record-2016

 

Enjoy!



#62 BRG

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 20:48

I think if they ever got the Targa venue up and running again it would be only for tarmac rally cars. 

Isn't the Targa Florio run as a rally nowadays?  A round of the Italian Rally Championship, I believe, so presumably a serious event.  Does it use any parts of the old circuit?



#63 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 05:31

Here is the itinerary, if that helps:

 

http://www.acisporti...nata_cir_cr.pdf

 

Vince H.



#64 BRG

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 18:36

Without a map, it is difficult to say what is used but the names are right.  The rally website suggests that parts of the Madonie are used.



#65 Alan Cox

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Posted 01 July 2016 - 10:07

It makes one weep to see those photos of Doug's. As has been suggested, the roads were always subject to slippage and road crews would go round doing patching repairs before race day. I never had the pleasure of seeing the Targa 'proper' but have visited for five or six historic revivals since the late 1980s and really love the place.

There are intermittent attempts to get a revival event up and running, but condition of the roads and erratic sponsorship deals mean that it isn't a regular thing. As mentioned, the Targa name is attached to an Italian rally nowadays. Somehow, I missed news of this year's 100th anniversary revival held at the beginning of May, but there is some info here, when the organisers seeem to have attracted an impressive roster of surviving Targa veterans.
http://www.targa-florio.it/en/
http://www.targa-flo...1131ffe454ad770
Entry list
http://www.targa-flo...C_SPEED__1_.pdf

Edited by Alan Cox, 01 July 2016 - 10:09.


#66 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 May 2020 - 18:21

I just know that this is the best Targa Florio picture I've ever seen...

 

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...Siffert and Vaccarella in 1970.

 

Maybe some 'Targabore' can tell where it was taken?