191 replies to this topic

[SR388]

Its traditional good fun. Not sophisticated. Not complicated. Just a nice long race on a Sunday afternoon.

You sit down in your lazy boy at 1:00pm with a beer in hand, by 2:15 you're 3 beers deep and you take a nap. Wake back up at 3:30 and you're ready for beers 4 and 5 and you sink into the final 30-50 laps.

Edited by SR388, 19 June 2016 - 18:31.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

The craziest thing about the playoff system is that it totally made the "regular season" races pointless.  Under the old, pre-Chase format, ever race, no matter how boring, could always generate a story if the points leader blew his engine or crashed.  Now a lot of races are fought among drivers who all have nothing to lose and nothing to gain.  That's hardly a recipe for drama.

[chunder27]

SR, I think you have summed it up perfectly

 

And it is why it only appeals largely to Americans, like most of their sports to be honest.

[D28]

The angst with this question seems to be originating from the F1,or at least road racing fraternity (to which I belong). I see no reciprocal concern over F1 from NASCAR enthusiasts. One might just as well ask why college football is such a huge semi-pro sports attraction in USA. American sporting scene is unique and that is by no means a bad thing. Even with recent declines, NASCAR remains hugely popular and attracts viewers that Bernie in his wildest dreams could never emulate. NASCAR's base remains in USA, Canada and possibly Mexico, what the rest of the world thinks is a matter of indifference to the majority of is supporters.

Gordon Kirby described the US racing scene and its unique character a few years back in Motor Sport. "America is and always will be motor racing's true Wild West. For better or worse it will inevitably go its own many ways without influence from the FIA. It's a separate world."

 

.. 

[Bob Riebe]

If you are not from the U.S. of A.  you probably know nothing of the history of stock car racing in the U.S. and without that knowledge it will always be a mystery to you.

 

While there is now only professional series, there used to be many while at the same time short track stock car racing in the U.S. is still quite well.

 

The short tracks in the U.S. play the same role the SCCA used to play in road racing when that was strong; when the SCCA became a faint shadow of itself, so did road racing.

 

Without the short tracks, NASCAR would suffer the same fate.

[Branislav]

It should be the driver with the most wins in the season champion.

[Myrvold]

It should be the driver that score the most points throughout a season. With most wins, you can win 7 races, come last the rest and still win the championship. That's wrong. Just as wrong as this system, where you can win 35 races and end up 4th...

However, I think there will be even more random stuff being applied, seeing that hey have lost 1/5 of the viewers over the last couple of years, and are steadily getting "lowest since at least 2000" on TV-Ratings.

[Branislav]

It should be the driver that score the most points throughout a season.

That's no longer fun. That's history. They wanted to evaluate the winners. Then why do not evaluate the entire season not just chase. Then would have made sense every race.

 

With most wins, you can win 7 races, come last the rest and still win the championship. That's wrong.

But you won 7 races. And others have a chance to win more races and to be champions. It's system win or lose and I like it

[Seanspeed]

SR, I think you have summed it up perfectly

And it is why it only appeals largely to Americans, like most of their sports to be honest.

I don't know what other sport you're talking about?

And drinking is heavily associated with soccer, so...

[chunder27]

Most Europeans do not really bond well with the big USA sports. Basketball sort of, certainly not baseball and though NFL has a big following here and in Europe a lot of people see it as a poor relation to rugby. Ice hockey is only popular in colder areas as it maybe is in the US not sure, but certainly not anywhere else really. We have the same things. Cricket, not even aware of it in the US I would guess. Two sports universally popular in both places are golf and angling. But very few are like that, perhaps soccer could be in time.

 

There is no real short oval racing in the whole of Europe, certainly not much that bears much comparison with US racing, the stuff I watch is all contact racing, which is amazing. Circuit racing over there had a boom time but is really struggling now. And Americans still love drag racing where that is a minor motorsport over here

 

I know an awful lot about NASCAR, its origins in bootlegging, the original sand races, the convertible series and the dirt tracks they used to run on, I, and millions of other European fans simply do not understand why it is so popular and remains so popular.

 

I think it is certainly due to its blue collar nature and its roots in the south. And it is also due to it being easy to follow and watch from the back of your pickup in the middle. It is certainly nothing to do with snobbery, tracks with corners that go another way or speed. it is simply, for a lot of Europeans, very boring to watch. That's it really.

 

But I know plenty of UK fans who visit regularly, love it, think it is the best motorsport on earth. So clearly I am missing something, gladly!

[loki]

 

 

I know an awful lot about NASCAR, its origins in bootlegging, the original sand races, the convertible series and the dirt tracks they used to run on, I, and millions of other European fans simply do not understand why it is so popular and remains so popular.

 

I think it is certainly due to its blue collar nature and its roots in the south. And it is also due to it being easy to follow and watch from the back of your pickup in the middle. It is certainly nothing to do with snobbery, tracks with corners that go another way or speed. it is simply, for a lot of Europeans, very boring to watch. That's it really.

 

But I know plenty of UK fans who visit regularly, love it, think it is the best motorsport on earth. So clearly I am missing something, gladly!

 

With respect chap you don't know know about stock car racing in the US aside from a few details in what is a very long history of circle track racing in the US.  The support for stock car racing comes from the long tradition of participatory racing at the lower/hobby levels across the US.  Europe and the UK have nothing like this in terms of hobby racing.  In terms of races dirt is still king with most circle track races in the US taking place on dirt.  Late models, modifieds, hobby/street stock and sprints and midgets.  As an example in the southwest, where circle track racing isn't as popular as other parts of the country,   Within a few hours of Vegas there are 5 dirt tracks and 4 paved ovals.  Three of those tracks are in the Vegas metro area.  To understand stock car/circle track racing in the US one must understand the roots from which it comes and the popularity of grass roots oval racing.

 

As for the speed of circle track cars, while the F1 press is wetting their pants over a 234 mph trap speed a couple of decades ago Indycars were averaging more than that on a lap with the top trap speed being 256.9 (single car, no draft) back before they detuned the cars.   Even the 3500 lb sled of a Cup car is able to lap at more than 200 mph though they keep detuning the engines and limiting the aero to keep them under 200 mph.  The straight line trap speed is 244.9 but that was a salt flats run though somewhere like Daytona or Dega with the right unrestricted car they could approach that.

[chunder27]

I don't live there so I know about as much as I need to, as you might know about what you call hobby level racing over here in the UK, some of which I was watching live today. We have countless short ovals dirt and tar (we call it asphalt not pavement, that is what you walk on sorry) and countless different series running on them, from full contact road car based bangers and smaller kids racing to full blown contact stock cars and all things inbetween, Legends as you have, modifieds to some level as you have. Agreed our country is tiny and we have an established road racing and rallying infrastructure so short oval racing is a minority sport here not the biggest thing on offer and not recognised byt eh governing body, but it serves the same purpose and is a true career for those who get to the top, very few of them ever race anywhere else as nothing offers the same thrill, cheapness or racing experience.  We have even sent a few drivers over to the US, but they never manage to do any good without money and serious backing. Though the ones that do it seriously often do quite well like winning the Indy 500!!

 

So please do not try and tell me I know nothing about oval racing in the USA, most of the parts used in our top level short oval racing come from there in terms of engines and drivetrain as they are so specialised there is no market for them anywhere else. America is the home of oval racing, but Britain is the home of contact oval racing, and that is far, far more interesting to a few of us!! Similarly with drag racing, most of our kit is cast off US stuff as there isn't the market for it here. Simply put Europe's main market is road racing, America's is all types of oval racing, we don't even really have any decent big ovals, so you wouldn't really expect anything else"!

 

Speed of cars literally means nothing to anyone with any common sense, no matter where they are from.  if speed is all I desire I will go and watch Speed week at Bonneville thanks. I couldnt care less about F1.

[Slowersofterdumber]

You'll find hard to bump into an F1 fan excited about a speed trap figure mate. Everybody know the cars could do 400 km/h and above with adapted gearing and aero.

When a new fast track appears there's always the doubt to see if cars could be faster than at Monza, and that's all.

Beating a 2004 track record will make headlines, or maybe even going flat through an iconic fast corner for the first time, like Copse in 2010... a 350 km/h speed trap won't. We all know they'll go as fast as the track layout allows.

If shorter gearing or more wing are faster around the place, teams won't chase a speed trap figure. It's not important.

Edited by Slowersofterdumber, 19 June 2016 - 19:24.

[Myrvold]

But you won 7 races. And others have a chance to win more races and to be champions. It's system win or lose and I like it

So, you are fine with the scenario, that a driver wins all road courses and short tracks - and doesn't compete in the rest, and still have enough wins for the title?

 

Yes, again, about as likely as Leicester winning the PL, but the whole idea that these things can happen shows that it is wrong.

[Branislav]

How do you mean "doesn't compete in the rest"? Every driver who means to be a champion MUST compete in ALL races. Unless he doesn't hurt and be unable to drive all the races.

[kevinracefan]

I'm too lazy to read all these posts.. but, it's simple.. way more simple than these 100 posts before me..

 

38 races... every week just about..

[chunder27]

That is not necessarily a good thing though is it.

[ebc]

I am from Ireland and have been a huge F1 fan for 20 years, but I started watching Nascar in 2012 when F1 moved to sky and the Sprint Cup highlights were on that channel.  Initially it was hard to appreciate but as I watched it more I fell in love with it.  It is auto-racing just like any other series, great drivers in fast cars, racing.  At first I thought the tracks were all similar but they are not and are actually quite varied even though most are ovals.  There are short tracks, intermediates, super-speedways & road courses, flat tracks, high banked tracks, asphalt & concrete, all of them have different requirements and have different style of racing that brings interest each week.

 

I watched a few documentaries on Youtube that helped understand the history of the sport and get to know Its unique culture as well. 

 

I find the races are more exciting than F1 especially this year, It is not clear who is going to win before the race and there is about 10 to 12 potential winners every week.  The drivers are as good as any other series has to offer and are able to show their personalities more.  

 

The races are a bit too long though and usually start at 6:00 or 7:00 on a Sunday evening here in Ireland and last about 4 hours so it does take a lot out of my Sunday evening.  I also would prefer all 36 races to count towards the titles instead of the chase but aside from that I think it is fantastic and right now I certainly prefer it to F1.

[Myrvold]

How do you mean "doesn't compete in the rest"? Every driver who means to be a champion MUST compete in ALL races. Unless he doesn't hurt and be unable to drive all the races.

 

Yup, with todays rules, but in a "most wins" rule, would that still count? Start&Park after 1 lap then... I don't get how it is "good" to have 35 wins and one 2nd place in 36 races and not win the title. Or have 7 wins and 28 40th places, and win the title. Both are utterly impossible to live to see, but it is possible. It is just plain wrong.

[Bob Riebe]

With respect chap you don't know know about stock car racing in the US aside from a few details in what is a very long history of circle track racing in the US.  The support for stock car racing comes from the long tradition of participatory racing at the lower/hobby levels across the US.  Europe and the UK have nothing like this in terms of hobby racing.  In terms of races dirt is still king with most circle track races in the US taking place on dirt.

You are absolutely correct about short track racing here not being similar to that in Europe or the UK.

We have 1/3 mile dirt track race just outside of town here; last week the sprint cars ran there.

The average speed of the field for qualifying was 113 mph.

I doubt there are any short track races on the other side of the pond that come within 30 mph of that.

 

The 1/2 mile tracks are good deal faster and there are still a lot of them.

[loki]

You are absolutely correct about short track racing here not being similar to that in Europe or the UK.

We have 1/3 mile dirt track race just outside of town here; last week the sprint cars ran there.

The average speed of the field for qualifying was 113 mph.

I doubt there are any short track races on the other side of the pond that come within 30 mph of that.

 

The 1/2 mile tracks are good deal faster and there are still a lot of them.

 

The sprint car guys are nuts, just like the modified guys (and gals).  I ran a hobby stock in the regional NASCAR home track series a few seasons and while the late/super lates were pretty fast, when the regional modified and sprint car pro series ran as the feature class they were off the hook fast.   One of the good things about some of the local tracks around the country are accessible entry level classes like hornet/u-car.  I don't know if you guys have something like that locally.  For about a grand you take a beater,  front wheel drive compact car, add a small cage and some safety gear and you're racing.  In some places with a minimal purse and some contingency you can pay for most of your season.

[bigmack]

I stopped watching all Nascar races at the start of this year when the new truck rules came out.

 

I started watching in 1997.

 

I haven't missed it all and I'm not looking up any results.

[klyster]

"Two sports universally popular in both places are golf and angling"

 

As popular as they are,  they aren't really sports, Imo (I know what I think doesn't matter) ,  rather than glamorized pastimes whose best are undoubtedly skilled at what they do,  much in the same way as dart players are highly skilled. 

 

Any, "sport" you can do while drinking and smoking is kinda lacking something that makes it sport, they are legitimized by the large following,  money,  airtime and sponsorship. 

Juxtapose those to UFC,  which is becoming huge globally and requires a level of fitness that golf and fishing don't. 

 

As for NASCAR, Im from New Zealand,  don't follow NASCAR but I'll watch it when it's  broadcast here.  I know people will say there were a couple of smoking drivers,  but there is a level of fitness required to drive any car fast a long and if you screw it up,  it can kill you. 

 

Anyway,  I have no idea what my point is so I'll just shut up now.... 

Edited by klyster, 21 June 2016 - 08:39.

[Lee Nicolle]

NASCARs good old boys, a thing of the past! Unfortunatly choreographed if not scripted. Lets wave a yellow if the race is getting boring or the leader runs away from the pack.

Unfortunatly copied world wide by too many organisations.

Cars sound great and run hard. But the outcome is usually known,, and the crashes are at times caused through the restarts.

Lost me about the time Earnhardt died. 

[Bob Riebe]

Earnhardt was the last of the old school stock car drivers and Stewart is the last of the simply old school drivers -- if it had wheels he would drive it.

 

Now, with exceptions NASCAR is trying hard to force to conform  or leave, it is a bunch of boys who when the France boy comes in and says crap, they drop their pants and squat.

[chunder27]

The racing is totallly manufactured, the cars all look the same, sound the same. All part of teh NASCAR love in for some reason, but it's ben that way for decades really.

 

The only identity they have is a number and that, a driver seems to take with him everywhere for merchandising reasons.  They are years ahead of most motorsport in terms of that sort of thing. It is about racing in the end, and again numerous aero race passes or bump draft passes per lap is supposed to make me think the racing is good?  Any series can offer that on ovals or road tracks, You can see the same in karting, bike racing and things like one make pickup trucks that raced over here for a few years until we all realised big ovals were a waste of time in Europe.

 

For some reason on this thread people seem to want to be impressed by lap average speeds. Or the speeds achieved by race cars. I have no idea why.

 

A sprint car lapping at 100mph round an oval is impressive yes, as is a pack of them doing so, but once you have seen it once you can see it every week and not be impressed. The cars are designed to do such things with stagger, setups and the like.  Same as a fueller eing able to hit nearly 400mph on a quarter mile, they could probably go much faster on a longer track.

[Bob Riebe]

The racing is totallly manufactured, the cars all look the same, sound the same.

 

The same cam pretty much be said for Formula One or most supposed major racing series.

 

The worst is road racing where the cars look different but where pathetic controlling rules make it same crap from different piles under the hood.

 

In NASCAR with the fuel injection another spec. has been added but the engines are different and top engine builders can still find way to get more hp than the competition.

[chunder27]

Motorsport in general has suffered this issue for a long time now. It is why I as a fan go elsewhere to watch racing now, off the beat and track somewhat.  There are series that offer glimmers of hope like some aspects of WEC, some national rally series that are throwing up some new ideas, and some things like time attack that are using aero to make ridiculous looking but very effective cars.

 

I think the ability of NASCAR engine development is staggering, rivalling f1 in terms of what theya re doing with a garbage lump of iron decades old. THe rpm, flow and lastability of those engines is amazing really.

[VIVAFERRARI]

 

Why is Nascar so populare???

 

 

 

• Because NASCAR doesn't care about being green: F1 does care about being green

 

• Because NASCAR isn't a hypocrite about  being green: F1 does reduce the bhp to be green but on the other side they have ever more fly-away races( every flight from EU to NY requires more fuel than F1 does in 1 Season) thus F1 is hypocritical about beeing green

 

• Becaue NASCAR listens to fans

 

• Because NASCAR has the better coverage (at least in Germany): the commentators are real fun (btw you can chose between the German commentary and the one from TNT or so) if the race is boring they try to find out which tower in Chicago is the sears tower

 

• Because NASCAR doesn't give a freaking **** about what is talked on the team radio

 

• Because there is no track limit violation. U know: walls

 

• Because there is V8

 

• Because there is patriotism

 

• Because there is Joooooney

 

• Because there is BK (ok that's an argument against watching Nascar)

 

• Because there is a race every weekend (Football is that popular because you can have it every weekend)

 

• Because as a fan you don't have to care about politics (engine freeze never heard of)

 

• There is no "driver x under investigation for... "- they are men not pussies

 

• because there are also pussies not only men

 

really?  OVAL. I thought only Americans like it. There is nothing interesting for me over there.I do not know any team or driver or track and i do not care => i do not watch. Very simple. There is nothing amusing in holding the steering wheel under certain angle for 200 laps. I am not into crashing, bumping and that kind of staff. But i have seen the crowd yelling for those "races"

[Nathan]

^  Are people really so stupid to think at 180-200mph when you are entering a left only turn it's just as easy as turning the steering wheel a sufficient amount to make the corner???

My goodness, want to display balls? Drive a car at 190mph into a corner at the edge of adhesion with one car 2 foot ahead, another 2 feet behind, another 2 feet to your left and a concrete wall to your other side, and then have to adjust the constantly changing aerodynamics. Try that for a few laps.

 

It amazes me people are in awe at a corner like 140R, and will talk about two cars going through it side by side for years, but when NASCAR does it they yawn.  When arrogance and ignorance meet for coffee....

[kevinracefan]

really?  OVAL. I thought only Americans like it. There is nothing interesting for me over there.I do not know any team or driver or track and i do not care => i do not watch. Very simple. There is nothing amusing in holding the steering wheel under certain angle for 200 laps. I am not into crashing, bumping and that kind of staff. But i have seen the crowd yelling for those "races"

something is bliss they say...

[VIVAFERRARI]

^  Are people really so stupid to think at 180-200mph when you are entering a left only turn it's just as easy as turning the steering wheel a sufficient amount to make the corner???

My goodness, want to display balls? Drive a car at 190mph into a corner at the edge of adhesion with one car 2 foot ahead, another 2 feet behind, another 2 feet to your left and a concrete wall to your other side, and then have to adjust the constantly changing aerodynamics. Try that for a few laps.

 

It amazes me people are in awe at a corner like 140R, and will talk about two cars going through it side by side for years, but when NASCAR does it they yawn.  When arrogance and ignorance meet for coffee....

I am not gonna try it because i am NOT a racing driver. I am viewer. On the road i am responsible for my life and for the life of others. As viewer i do NOT like Nascar(if you like to see crashing - knock yourself out). That is why i do NOT watch it. Why is this so difficult to understand it? Some people like Iphone, some not. Some like chocolate, some not. I just do not like Nascar. Why on Earth all human beings need to have similar taste of something. Now...open a beer and calm down ;)

[Nathan]

It's fine not to like it, but your reasoning is flawed.  But it is your reasoning.  If you watch motorsports for racing, well I can't think of a motorsport that has more actual, real car to car racing.  That is probably why there are so many accidents in NASCAR ;)

[jonpollak]

This thread is a cultural lulz bonanza.

[VIVAFERRARI]

It's fine not to like it, but your reasoning is flawed. But it is your reasoning. If you watch motorsports for racing, well I can't think of a motorsport that has more actual, real car to car racing. That is probably why there are so many accidents in NASCAR ;)

I fall in love with the normal F1. I have been watching a lot. Lately all of the motor sport goes to direction that i do not like, so my interest is going down. There is no turning back from hybrids to petrol V8s, No more big preasure In the turbo. It is all about restrictions, coasting and efficiency. That part is Just not my cup of tea. And as i am following the other topics for less viewers during the years... Looks like i am not alone.

[chunder27]

I think the point about speed is that ALL the cars do the same speed pretty much in NASCAR, so one guy going flat through a turn is no more impressive than the guy in 30th place.

Yes it's great seeing a field of three wide cars doing it at Daytona, but they do it every lap of most races for decades.

 

Hardly makes it special anymore does it, unless you are in the damn thing at the time!

 

The times you remember it being cool passing at speed is Webber on Alonso at Eau Rouge, Mansell on Berger at Peraltada, Verstappen at Blancimont that time. Coz theya re one offs, brave and bonkers and theya re at high speed.

 

There must be countles times an amazing pass has been done in NASCAR, but not being a fan I dont watch it regularly. I have tried but it just dont float my boat as I hoped it would.

[ch103]

My two cents on this.  In the USA, Nascar was considered to be a "Southern" thing and was largely ignored by the Northern and Western states.  Then, somehow, Dale Earnhardt made it cool to be a Southerner.  Nobody embodied the core Nascar essence like Dale did.  Then came along Jeff Gordon and all bets were off at that point.  Gordon didn't have a Southern draw and came across as more of a corporate office worker/saleman type.  He had the mass appeal that drivers before him had not.  Combine Gordon's popularity with the fact that corporate marketing departments began to realize the loyalty of race fans and BOOM, you see Nascar tracks being built in places where they were never at historically.  Texas, Las Vegas, California (yes, I know Riverside...), Kentucky.  

 

As far as keeping Nascar popular, the governing body has no problem interfering and modifying cars in the name of equality. And, in my opinion, they intentionally throw cautions for the sake of entertainment.  So they give up engineering for the sake of spectacle and for F1 folks that comes across as sacrilege.  However, I think it ultimately comes down to the fact that Americans have 36 races a year to tune into versus the single Grand Prix that is available.       

[mariner]

I just saw my first NASCAR race in 18 years at Pocono. It got rained off Sunday so smaller crowd on Monday but the same slick spectacle I remember from two decades ago.

 

We paid $75/£50 for seats right opposite the pit lane and in front of huge live screen with lots of good data updates ( unlike Sliverstone). The pit stops are better then F1 in the sense they are now longer and the cars get  altered.

 

The last 35 laps were tame as it was an economy run to the flag but lots of action until then..

 

I've seen most forms of racing and apart from the WoO 800 bhp sprint cars NASCAR is the best for pure racing spectacle to my eyes.

 

Of course for my ears, teeth and stomach the sheer violence of two 8,000 bhp Top Fuel cars launching is incredible -  but only in limited amounts.

Edited by mariner, 23 June 2016 - 16:17.

[kevinracefan]

^they figure those top fuel cars are now 10,500 - 11,000 HP.. and yes, they hurt your chest as they launch past you..

[whitewaterMkII]

As for racing heritage, heres a company founded by a NASCAR champion, Carl Kiekhaefer, that arguably makes the best outboard and marine race engines in the world. Some of engines if you care to look through their site are truly super sophisticated and genuine engine porn. And their roots are in NASCAR. Go figure. 

http://www.mercuryracing.com

I took the Daytona tour a few weeks back and it is an intimidating racetrack, and if you have never seen their cars up close or their race operations and shops, you are really missing how bad ass they are.

[HaydenFan]

Fact that they are giant rocks (over 3000 pounds), hurdling around some tracks like Michigan, Daytona into the corners at 200 mph+. Just that alone is cool. 

 

Kyle Larson gave a good insight in practice today as to why some drivers struggle on the ovals. The cars suspension is too stiff to get a good feel. Which means crew chiefs even more important. 

 

Outside of NASCAR, where is an chief engineer, or any race engineer, a star? We always talk about the guy who designs the car in F1. 

[KnucklesAgain]

I don't know where to post this:

 

NASCAR Team Pays Ransomware Fee to Recover Files Worth $2 Million
Team almost missed a NASCAR race because of the infection

NASCAR team Circle Sport-Leavine Family Racing (CSLFR) revealed today it faced a ransomware infection this past April when it almost lost access to crucial files worth nearly $2 million, containing car parts lists and custom high-profile simulations that would have taken 1,500 man-hours to replicate.

 
They had no backup for these crucial files!!
 
http://news.softpedi...on-505641.shtml
 
(Sorry if already posted)

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 25 June 2016 - 10:03.