34 replies to this topic

[Peat]

So, the existing BRDC F4 championship will run to the new FIA F4 regs for next year.

Formula Ford GB will also adopt the FIA regs and become the official FIA sanctioned F4 series for Great Britain. But, can't call itself F4 because Doc Palmer has the naming rights sewn up, so will be called 'MSA Formula'.

How on earth has this been allowed to happen?

The MSA need to have a look at themselves. Greedy little men are destroying motorsport. 

[pdac]

 

Edited by pdac, 29 September 2014 - 13:16.

[sabjit]

[Fatgadget]

I cant be bovvered to google it,but what exactly is F4? ..Incidentaly ,does FF and F3 and F2 still exist??

[Prost1997T]

So much for a single entry-level series per major country running to the F4 spec... there's going to be the same thing happening with FR1.6 NEC\F4 NEC next year too.

Edited by Prost1997T, 29 September 2014 - 15:06.

[redreni]

I don't see why the MSA needs to have any more of a hard look at itself than MSV. Previously neither Formula Ford nor MSV's F4 were running to the FIA's F4 spec, and now both will be, but it still doesn't alter the fact that we have two British entry-level categories for formula racing competing unnecessarily against each other. That situation wasn't brought about by the MSA, it was brought about by MSV - they're the ones who launched British F4 in direct competition with British Formula Ford. In a way, the fact that they will now be running to the same regs is a positive thing, in that it paves the way for a possible merger.

[Sheepmachine]

I cant be bovvered to google it,but what exactly is F4? ..Incidentaly ,does FF and F3 and F2 still exist??

F2 is dead, F3 (in Britain) is on life support. Formula ford is probably the strongest at the moment out of the three.

[ExFlagMan]

F2 is dead, F3 (in Britain) is on life support. Formula ford is probably the strongest at the moment out of the three.

If you call grids struggling to get into double figures strong...

[Prost1997T]

If you call grids struggling to get into double figures strong...

 

BRDC F4 attracts good grids at the moment. That's why the MSA Formula series would be redundant.

[Ross Stonefeld]

At the time BRDC Formula 4(MSV/Palmer) was launched, it seemed better than Formula Ford. And it currently has the bigger grid. In the same time Formula Renault disappeared leaving only the club series for older cars(which semi-pro drivers had/have been racing in).

 

So Formula Ford jumps on the FIA F4 tech rules(and more importantly the allowance for 15 year old drivers). BRDC Formula 4 smartly realises this is a threat and quickly aggrees to also adopt FIA F4 rules and crucially the 15 year old allowance.

 

So MSA Formula 4 will be a Mygale-Ford and MSV Formula 4 will be a Tatuus-Cosworth(?). Tatuus is used in Italy(w/Fiat) and Germany(w/Volkswagen). Mygale will be used in China and Australia.

 

So now that we have two basically identical UK F4 series, it is a bit silly. But MSA F4 has the British Touring Car support package and live TV, so that's a pretty good series. I think they'll gain the momentum because BRDC F4 won't be able to adopt the FIA car until the end of 2015 for their winter series and for all of 2016. Also MSA F4(BTCC) will use the Hankook tires like the F3 Euroseries. I imagine the tire size will be adjusted for F4 performance but the construction and compound will be the same as the F3 car. Even if it's only a symbolic link, that's a good tool to use to convince someone to run in your F4 series rather than the other.

 

Of course within all of this they're trying to relaunch Formula Renault UK so who knows.

 

 

Tatuus

 

Mygale

 

Oh and there's some Formula 4 NEC(like Renault NEC?) but I don't know much about that, like which car-engine it is.

 

And can these cars compete against each other? I know each series is only one chassis and one kind of engine, but could they do an end of season 'final' or anything?

 

Zandvoort Masters might be cool again if it was an F4 free-for-all.

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 29 September 2014 - 15:44.

[CaptnMark]

Formula Ford GB will also adopt the FIA regs and become the official FIA sanctioned F4 series for Great Britain. But, can't call itself F4 because Doc Palmer has the naming rights sewn up, so will be called 'MSA Formula'.

 

Surely it should be called Formula 4D or something.

[Ross Stonefeld]

No it will have the charming name of MSA Formula – Certified by FIA, Powered by Ford EcoBoost.

 

Which is the worst thing since Bridgestone Presents the Champ Car World Series powered by Ford.

 

 

Oh, someone's updated the Wikipedia page. It's actually really useful now explaining the differences in engines, which series is running what, etc

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_4

[ExFlagMan]

I guess you cannot really blame Palmer/MSV - they saw a gap in the market for a UK entry level slicks/wings single seater series and tried to fill it - after all The FIA F4 series had not then got into its stride and no-one in the UK seemed keen to go down that route anyway.

Formula Ford had been going downhill for a good few years, probably ever since Ford decided to mandate a more modern engine in line with their road car products - problem was the new engines never really took off, particularly as they required new chassis. This did not make it an inviting prospect for the aspiring club driver. The cars where also probably too complex for an owner/driver to run, which again escalated the cost as you had to go with a team. This was exacerbated by Ford repeating the process every few year with a new engine. The result was that at each change the drivers/teams where left with cars with low residual value as there was no real place for them to race. It is a pretty astute move by Palmer to buy back the old spec cars for teams buying the new spec cars, not sure that a current spec FF car will have that sort of residual value.

I am not sure the new MSA formula will be helped or hindered by being part of the BTCC package, as this tends to escalate costs compared to running elsewhere - series registration fees and race entry fees have been higher for FF compared to BRDC F4, plus there are 25% more meetings for FF than BRDC F4 in 2014. I guess that is why BRDC F4 has run almost double the no of entries that FF this year. Another downside of running on the BTCC package as that when meetings run late it is the support package races that get cut, less likely to happen if you are running as the main feature as BRDC F4 does for the majority of its meetings. I guess the positive side of running on the BTCC package is bigger crowds and live TV, though again as a support race you are at the mercy of the main scheduling, hence normally only one of the 3 races each weekend gets broadcast.

It will be interesting to see which series 'wins' next year.

[Peat]

I don't see why the MSA needs to have any more of a hard look at itself than MSV.

 

Indeed, I am flabergasted by both of them.

But as the governing body in the UK, surely the MSA had more power to prevent something like this happening?

[aguri]

Have to say I am happy to see manufacturers like Mygale, Dome, Tatuus and Signatech getting the jump on Dallara by building these cars. It is good for the racing industry as a whole. 

 

As for Formula 4 - the FIA have cleaned up the mess that was the junior single seat category, but the success of the series will hinge on whether costs can stay low for drivers. 

[aguri]

Where does north america fit into all of this. Do F4's have a place in the road to indy program?

[Ross Stonefeld]

If the sub-Indylights series ever need new cars I think it'd be a great chance for them to switch to F4. Especially at the Formula 2000 level.

[Prost1997T]

If the sub-Indylights series ever need new cars I think it'd be a great chance for them to switch to F4. Especially at the Formula 2000 level.

 

F2000->F4 might make sense, depending on what the costs are, but the Van Diemens are numerous and cheap to run so I can't see them being replaced lightly.

[redreni]

I guess you cannot really blame Palmer/MSV - they saw a gap in the market for a UK entry level slicks/wings single seater series and tried to fill it - after all The FIA F4 series had not then got into its stride and no-one in the UK seemed keen to go down that route anyway.
 

[snip]

 

That's a really good point, actually. At the time MSV launched its F4 series, a lot of people were pointing out that drivers didn't want to move from karting to Formula Ford because wingless cars with pram wheels arguably give no better preparation for moving up the formula racing ladder than staying put in karting would. So I guess there is a stong argument to say the MSA is at fault here for being too slow to realise that they needed to offer young drivers a low cost entry-level category with slicks and wings, otherwise Formula Ford was just going to become more and more irrelevant. And by the time they picked up the FIA's F4 offering, it was too late.

 

Regardless of who's to blame, though, we can only hope the categories represent good enough value to make them both sustainable, and if not hopefully common sense will prevail and they will simply merge. Personally I hope F4 series across Europe fulfill their promise of attracting the best talent out of karting and getting them noticed by sponsors and young driver programs who can pick them up and give them an opportunity to move up the ladder based on their talent, not how rich their Dad is. And I hope the different series will be prepared to cooperate as well as compete - I'd love to see big invitational events at places like Pau, for example.

[Lee Nicolle]

Here in Oz CAMS have tried to promote F4 to the usual suspects to no avail. Now they have bought 20 cars!! which they intend to lease to local competitors. 

Myself and many others can see this will be a financial disaster and the rest of the sport will end up subsidising the category big time. 

No administration body has any right to spend members money on buying racecars. Promoting the category is ok.

If they cannot get decent fields in the UK where there is a LOT more people they will struggle here. Which is why the local owners have not been interested. F3 struggles and from what I have seen there is no newer cars.

[FerrariV12]

I was under the impression that the idea for FIA F4 was that while each country's championship is one-make engine-wise, it's an open chassis formula? I realise there's probably engine installation issues but it'd be nice if that was the case, even if in practice everyone goes for the same chassis for competition reasons, as in F3.

 

EDIT: Found the original news item - looks like, the plan anyway is (was?) the Formula E approach of being single-make to get it off the ground before opening it up, hope that's still the case:

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106219

 

 

FIA Formula 4 will start off as a single-make category before morphing into a multi-make slicks-and-wings formula based around a carbon chassis, according to FIA Single-Seater Commission president and ex-F1 driver Gerhard Berger.

It will use 1600cc engines capped at 150bhp. Each championship will use a single make of engine, but different manufacturers may build engines for the formula in different countries. The engines will be equalised so that one version of Formula 4 is not faster than another.

Edited by FerrariV12, 30 September 2014 - 00:33.

[Prost1997T]

MSA Formula say they have sold 32 cars to teams: http://www.racer.com...a-formula-entry

[Brandz07]

Oh and there's some Formula 4 NEC(like Renault NEC?) but I don't know much about that, like which car-engine it is.

 

 

Formula Renault 1.6 NEC?

[aguri]

MSA Formula say they have sold 32 cars to teams: http://www.racer.com...a-formula-entry

 

Spanish and Scandinavian/Russia Series also announced.

 

https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Formula_4

 

10 Series running world wide next seasons (including both british). French series will potentially change if it can be proven costs are low enough. 

 

I think this series might kill the Formula Renault 1.6 depending on what testing opportunities (F3 Euro) are afforded to the winners of each series.

[ExFlagMan]

MSA Formula say they have sold 32 cars to teams: http://www.racer.com...a-formula-entry

All the teams have to do now is find the drivers to fill them.

[Rob]

Why does everything have to be slicks and wings? Boring.

[TimRTC]

Why does everything have to be slicks and wings? Boring.

 

Because drivers and audiences didn't respect the classic FF look. Easier to sell sponsorship to businesses if you are posing in front of an F1 styled car rather than what looks like a big kart.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Formula Renault 1.6 NEC?

 

I dunno, is there? But there's Formula Renault NEC and some sort of Scandi/Eastern Europe F4 run by Korainen next year, backed by SMP.

[Prost1997T]

I dunno, is there? But there's Formula Renault NEC and some sort of Scandi/Eastern Europe F4 run by Korainen next year, backed by SMP.

There were also reports of Renault wanting a 1.6 series for southern Europe as well, based in Italy and perhaps pairing with the existing Alps championship.

Because drivers and audiences didn't respect the classic FF look. Easier to sell sponsorship to businesses if you are posing in front of an F1 styled car rather than what looks like a big kart.

Formula Ford is alive and well in Australia\New Zealand and North America. Some people do recognise the benefit of starting out in a car that is about mechanical grip rather than aero, although that has a lot to do with the higher tiers of racing in those regions.

Edited by Prost1997T, 10 November 2014 - 16:08.

[john ruston]

If anyone wants to start racing one of the best places is Historic Formula Ford.

Real racing cars and not that expensive in racing terms and cars hold value.

[Fastcake]

Spanish and Scandinavian/Russia Series also announced.

 

https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Formula_4

 

10 Series running world wide next seasons (including both british). French series will potentially change if it can be proven costs are low enough. 

 

I think this series might kill the Formula Renault 1.6 depending on what testing opportunities (F3 Euro) are afforded to the winners of each series.

 

Outside of the World Series and a couple of regional Renault 2.0 series, Formula Renault has already died. Most of the national championships had followed Formula BMW into oblivion, and as mentioned Formula Ford was slowly following them. Formula 4 came along at the right time to plug the entry level single seater gap in Europe.

 

I do wonder what plans the FIA have for drivers moving on though. While F4 may be more affordable and better supported, none of the series above it are, and with the demise of British F3 there does not even seem to be an obvious next step on the ladder. Going straight to GP3 or FIA European F3 seems an awfully large step.

Edited by Fastcake, 10 November 2014 - 16:27.

[BullHead]

There were also reports of Renault wanting a 1.6 series for southern Europe as well, based in Italy and perhaps pairing with the existing Alps championship.


Formula Ford is alive and well in Australia\New Zealand and North America. Some people do recognise the benefit of starting out in a car that is about mechanical grip rather than aero, although that has a lot to do with the higher tiers of racing in those regions.

 

Yes, it used to be that way. Learn your grips and spatial awareness before taking on aero adjustments, if indeed aero formula was where you wanted to go. MSA FFord made sense in that way as a support to tin tops. Going aero made it look odd IMO as the support. They only did it to copy MSV but IMO there was a logical place for both. Palmer has always had the first aero option since the FPA days.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Formula Ford Australia is becoming Formula 4.

[BRG]

Easier to sell sponsorship to businesses if you are posing in front of an F1 styled car rather than what looks like a big kart.

And wings are lovely space for sponsors logos etc.  I remember an old chum of mine who was one of the first karters to put some bodywork on his kart - not really for aero effect, but as advertising hoardings.

[krod]

 

 

British Formula 4 - What a bloody mess!

 

Dunno, did you see what Bernie did to F1?