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Does Mercedes need Christian Horner?


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#1 kenkip

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 12:39

Has anybody caught the feature in which Christian Horner is followed by a camera crew after the Italian GP?Fascinating piece I must say!(loved the part he was saying how Ricciardo charges all of his food and travel expenses on the team account-so these racing drivers aren't that different from the rest of us huh?)

It got me thinking,a TP scope of work is humongous.He must have racing knowledge,engineering know how,a financial background and marketing expertise (plus to be really successful,a grade A jack ass) all in one.

Is this where Mercedes are getting it wrong?It seems that Horner carries a lot of clout at Redbull and makes the major decisions up and down the RBR organization and with 8 world championships in the bag,it seems he has it right.

My question to Mercedes fans,would you accept Horner in the team?Do you think he would have a more streamlining effect on race operations and he doesn't seem to be caught up in pleasing every Tom,Dick and Harry in the paddock.

If I was in the Mercedes board,I would forget trying to get Adrian Newey,the car is a beast already,I would seriously consider dropping the three stooges and getting Horner on board.

Thoughts?



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#2 bauss

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 12:48

lol no



#3 Mart280

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 12:53


No, he got lucky with Newey, cant stand the bloke, he's a gloater.

Edited by Mart280, 29 September 2014 - 12:53.


#4 MikeV1987

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 13:01

Merc doens't need anyone imo.



#5 noikeee

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 13:03

Have you had a look at the world championship points table recently?



#6 SenorSjon

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 13:03

Does Horner need Mercedes?

 

And you bet Ricciardo is charging the team for expenses, he is not on the biggest salary. ;)



#7 kenkip

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 13:04

No, he got lucky with Newey, cant stand the bloke, he's a gloater.

Really?I think its really unfair people like you still beat that drum that Newey was the only reason RBR won all those races and championships.It took alot of effort and long nights from everyone in the team,nobody got lucky mate.

In that case is the whole Merc team lucky because of Ross Brawn"s handi-work set up this dominance?I think not.



#8 bub

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 13:09

He might be better than Wolff.



#9 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 13:10

I dunno, I always thought Red Bull was one of the 'easier' gigs in the pitlane. Sponsorship is a bit easier, you just hand over the technical department to Adrian Newey, Marko signs up anyone promising in the junior ranks.

 

Someone like Martin Whitmarsh, now there was a hard job. Nevermind places like Sauber...



#10 kenkip

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 13:18

I dunno, I always thought Red Bull was one of the 'easier' gigs in the pitlane. Sponsorship is a bit easier, you just hand over the technical department to Adrian Newey, Marko signs up anyone promising in the junior ranks.

 

Someone like Martin Whitmarsh, now there was a hard job. Nevermind places like Sauber...

Easy gig?If you think winning is just about throwing sponsors money at motor racing then you are wrong.Look at Toyota.Millions upon millions thrown at the project but at the end of the day?Nothing to show.

Also,Horner did his shift in middle of the grid you know,people only seem to remember the good times.



#11 Sennasational

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 13:18

Christian Horner is a weasel. Granted, even weasels have certain talents and their place in the world, but Mercedes GP would not benefit in the slightest from the introduction of a(nother) weasel.

 

A side note; almost everyone would credit this period of Mercedes dominance to Ross Brawn, apart from maybe Paddy Lowe. Almost no one would credit the Red Bull dominance of the last 4 years to Christian Horner, apart from maybe Christian Horner.



#12 HoldenRT

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 13:29

lol.. the responses have been (or will be) funny..

 

I enjoyed watching the video also.  I find it hard to like any of the team principals too much, due to the nature of their job.. there is a lot of politics and trying to keep a lot of different people happy at once.  It's a bit of a juggling act and a very complicated one.  I enjoyed it because it shows more of the little things we never hear or know about.  All we see is the weekends, a few interviews here or there.  But it's a constant drain of energy and trying to juggle many balls at once.  They always talk of "back at the factory" and it was nice to see more of what that actually means.  All TP's have a pretty tough job.  Horner has done a pretty decent job but similar to Flav and all the other main characters.. they are easy to hate when on the other team, but easier to like when they are on "your side".  There are many characters in all sports who are like this.  In a competitive environment, I'd rather have one who is hated than one who is "too nice".


Edited by HoldenRT, 29 September 2014 - 13:30.


#13 kenkip

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 13:34

Christian Horner is a weasel. Granted, even weasels have certain talents and their place in the world, but Mercedes GP would not benefit in the slightest from the introduction of a(nother) weasel.

 

A side note; almost everyone would credit this period of Mercedes dominance to Ross Brawn, apart from maybe Paddy Lowe. Almost no one would credit the Red Bull dominance of the last 4 years to Christian Horner, apart from maybe Christian Horner.

Thing is,any reasonable fan knows F1 is a huge team effort,my issue is with the fans who say that a team's success is due to one person.

Its like when everyone credits Alonso for Ferrari's performances but totally forget about the mechanics who give him a bullet proof car year after year.



#14 Sennasational

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 13:40

Thing is,any reasonable fan knows F1 is a huge team effort,my issue is with the fans who say that a team's success is due to one person.

Its like when everyone credits Alonso for Ferrari's performances but totally forget about the mechanics who give him a bullet proof car year after year.

 

This is true, to an extent. But there are always leaders, the people with a vision, and the ability to make their vision happen utilizing the talents of other people. Ross Brawn is one of those, Christian Horner is not. Any 'reasonable fan' knows that.



#15 sopa

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 14:11

This is true, to an extent. But there are always leaders, the people with a vision, and the ability to make their vision happen utilizing the talents of other people. Ross Brawn is one of those, Christian Horner is not. Any 'reasonable fan' knows that.

 

Horner's vision was to bring Newey into the team though, as well as Prodromou, Marshall and others, who a few years later made up this dream team.



#16 Mercedestorque1

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 14:15

He might be better than Wolff.

you may have a point there :lol:



#17 LORDBYRON

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 14:17

Em no 



#18 BRG

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 14:18

I am not sure what problem Mercedes have for which the OP considers Horner might be the solution?



#19 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 14:18

Easy gig?If you think winning is just about throwing sponsors money at motor racing then you are wrong.Look at Toyota.Millions upon millions thrown at the project but at the end of the day?Nothing to show.

Also,Horner did his shift in middle of the grid you know,people only seem to remember the good times.

 

That's in part why I think Horner has it 'easier' than most. He doesn't have to deal with someone like Toyota HQ interfering and tying his hands.

 

Even in the middle of the grid he had the Red Bull subsidy, Newey, Marko, etc.

 



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#20 DaddyCool

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 14:19

This is true, to an extent. But there are always leaders, the people with a vision, and the ability to make their vision happen utilizing the talents of other people. Ross Brawn is one of those, Christian Horner is not. Any 'reasonable fan' knows that.

 

Yeah Horner was an average dude who happened to be at the right place at the right time. The car is 100% done by Newey, Vettel and Webber were BFFs, the pit crew, strategist, engineers and other PR/catering staff have organized themselves into one of the most dominating teams the sport has ever seen on their own.

 

Jesus Christ, you can say a lot of things about Horner, being an incompetent team leader is not one of them.



#21 Briz

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 14:21

Well it would be an improvement over Wolff and Lauda, definitely. They seem to be nice guys, but their decisions and solutions appear to be based on just what's happening at the moment, extremely short sighted instead of thinking of future situations that might (and will) arise where current solution will backfire. Prost's critique about their result oriented thinking was spot on as well.



#22 Sennasational

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 14:26

Yeah Horner was an average dude who happened to be at the right place at the right time. The car is 100% done by Newey, Vettel and Webber were BFFs, the pit crew, strategist, engineers and other PR/catering staff have organized themselves into one of the most dominating teams the sport has ever seen on their own.

 

Jesus Christ, you can say a lot of things about Horner, being an incompetent team leader is not one of them.

 

I never said he was an incompetent team leader though. He's good at his job.



#23 Fatgadget

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 14:26

He might be better than Wolff.

Well,Toto first stint as TP is top of the pile....... :rolleyes:



#24 sabjit

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 14:33

Mercedes 479

Red Bull 305

 

Not sure why they would want Horner to be honest. They're doing great without him.



#25 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 14:40

If M-B were going to bring in someone else, surely bringing back Ross Brawn would be the best option....and make Toto Wolfe, Paddy Lowe & Nki Lauda stay in the background rather than having 3 or 4 chiefs.



#26 surbjits

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 14:45

Mercedes 479

Red Bull 305

 

Not sure why they would want Horner to be honest. They're doing great without him.

 

What kind of evidence is that? For all we know if you put the Merc engine in the Red Bull car, it'd actually be faster than the Merc.



#27 Fatgadget

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 14:51

If M-B were going to bring in someone else, surely bringing back Ross Brawn would be the best option....and make Toto Wolfe, Paddy Lowe & Nki Lauda stay in the background rather than having 3 or 4 chiefs.

Why bring back someone who has moved on to greener pastures? :confused: ...Its a  bit like rekindling a long lost romance! :eek: ....."The past is not always where you thought you left it"!.....I read  that somewhere BTW! :lol:



#28 Shambolic

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 14:54

No, he got lucky with Newey, cant stand the bloke, he's a gloater.

 



#29 TheRacingElf

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 15:01

While I don't think they need Horner, I do think they need a better team leader.. Someone like uhmm for example..Ross Brawn



#30 ardbeg

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 15:23

What exactly is happening in Mercedes that did not happened in RBR when they fought for the championships?



#31 redreni

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 15:35

I think Horner would get a shock if he went to Merc and tried to run it like he runs Red Bull. I think keeping the board of Mercedes-Benz happy and keeping Dietrich Mateschitz happy are probably two very different jobs, one being a petrol-head who runs his company more or less according to his personal whims, the other being altogether more complicated and less focussed on racing and winning for its own sake. It's a bit like Smithers and Mr Burns - if Burns died and the power plant got taken over by EDF, would Smithers still be able to function as effectively as before?

 

On the other hand, I believe Merc F1 needs to do something about the way it's currently being run, because splitting the job between a technical chief with no personality, and a likeable but ultimately confused ex gentleman racing driver who only speaks in alternating contradictory sentences, with occasional interjections and interference from F1's biggest motormouth, is not a recipe for sustained success, in my opinion.



#32 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 15:35

Dynamics within a team take time to gel. Horner has been there since day 1. People know him and there is a certain chemistry within the team.

 

Replace and swap him with someone else and that chemistry slowly becomes undone.



#33 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 15:57

There is NO I in Team!

 

He maybe a great influence on the team and people around him, but you seem to have forgotten about all the people behind him - and his team of advisors!


Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 29 September 2014 - 15:57.


#34 Szoelloe

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 16:26

Well,Toto first stint as TP is top of the pile....... :rolleyes:

 

umm, I do beg to differ. He is still living off Brawn's work, but his day-to-day operational decisions and statements seem to indicate he is sometimes lost at sea. Like you though, so many others here refer to him as TP. He is NOT a TP,(there is no such role at Mercedes, which by now everyone knows is pretty effing dumb) although most of the time he tries to behave like one, and so many times this year he has spoken, acted, and operated in matters that should concern Paddy Lowe, not him, that makes you think really. They lost Brawn on the Paddy L story, everybody and their granny - except, it seems themselves -  knew Lowe is incapable of filling Brawn's shoes. So now, they have Lowe, who is a good engineer without the expertise and most of all, the authority to command even the sporting side of an operation the size of Merc, Niki, who has no active role, but is a media figurehead at the most - which is a relief btw - and Toto, who tries to run things, but he is not the TP. WTF is Lowe doing? Reliability is below standard, they make stupid pit calls, and they seem to be less and less capable to put two reliable cars on track at the same race. Who's authority is that?? Lowe's, or Toto's? It's sure not Niki's.

 

So, concerning the OP, I really don't like Horner, and I think he would find himself in a Vettel-like situation,who lost his mojo in the four years he drove Newey's  exhaust blown designs with the Renault engine mapping to go with it. Still, if not Horner, they should get someone capable as fast asthey can because Lowe was a huge mistake. He is not a leader, and to me, Toto doesn't seem as a capable TP either, unfortunately.



#35 george1981

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 17:03

I'm not sure if Mercedes need Horner. Mercedes changed their structure after Brawn left, the alternative hypothesis is that the change of structure made Brawn leave.

Had Mercedes wanted to stick to having a single person calling the shots then Horner would probably have been the best they could have hoped for.

I'm not sure how instrumental Horner was in getting Newey to Redbull but I think Horner is one of the reasons why Newey has stayed so long. Horner did a very good job of keeping the Vettel/Webber situation under control. It wasn't great but it could have been a lot worse. When you look at how Mercedes have publicly blamed Rosberg for the Spa incident, it is a credit to Rosberg that he's kept his cool. When Redbull had that situation after Turkey 2010, they weren't as scathing to one of their drivers.

On the Riccardio charging everything to the team. He's gone on record as saying that part of his salary gets paid back to Redbull to repay them for the cost of his earlier career. He wouldn't be getting much at Redbull anyway and he then loses a bit in 'student loan'. There are lots of stories about F1 drivers being careful with their money, Martin Brundle used to describe Michael Schumacher as 'first one out of the taxi, last one to the bar' when they were team mates at Benetton.



#36 sopa

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 17:19

There are lots of stories about F1 drivers being careful with their money, Martin Brundle used to describe Michael Schumacher as 'first one out of the taxi, last one to the bar' when they were team mates at Benetton.

 

Efficiency and trying to perform as the best everywhere, not just on racetrack.  :D



#37 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 19:12

Horner's vision was to bring Newey into the team though, as well as Prodromou, Marshall and others, who a few years later made up this dream team.

 

You make is sound as though no other team had considered hiring Newey.  Every team manager had a vision to bring Newey into their team.  Only Horner had Red Bull's bank account. 



#38 Craven Morehead

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 19:34

It's Ferrari that need Christian Horner, not Mercedes.



#39 Szoelloe

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 19:36

You make is sound as though no other team had considered hiring Newey.  Every team manager had a vision to bring Newey into their team.  Only Horner had Red Bull's bank account. 

 

 

It wasn't a question of money. Ok, not only. And that is exactly why Horner doesn't qualify for the job at Merc the OP is suggesting.



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#40 sopa

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 19:37

You make is sound as though no other team had considered hiring Newey.  Every team manager had a vision to bring Newey into their team.  Only Horner had Red Bull's bank account. 

 

Newey was hired around 2005-2006, when we had lots of big-budgeted teams. BAR/Honda, Toyota, BMW Sauber, Renault, McLaren, Ferrari. I believe at the time the budgets of all those teams exceeded Red Bull's. It was not the situation what we have had since 2010, by when most of the factory teams had pulled out and Red Bull remained one of the few big-budgeted teams on the grid.

 

People talk like Horner has built up this team only with luck and money, but forget the situation in which the team was, when they actually put in place the foundations for the future. It was a midfield team, which many people didn't take seriously. I think even BAR, when it joined in 1999, was taken more seriously than Red Bull before 2005.

 

Most importantly, Horner was able to offer Newey the working conditions he liked. ProbablyHorner was helped by Mateschitz' vision, as he was prepared to give his race team more freedom than usual manufacturer-backed teams did at the time. But nevertheless Horner had to use this relative freedom wisely, put this team in place, all the key people in right places, make them work efficiently and deal with day-to-day running of the team to make the whole system work. He did a brilliant job in that. To me there is no other argument.


Edited by sopa, 29 September 2014 - 19:42.


#41 Timstr11

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 19:42

umm, I do beg to differ. He is still living off Brawn's work, but his day-to-day operational decisions and statements seem to indicate he is sometimes lost at sea. Like you though, so many others here refer to him as TP. He is NOT a TP,(there is no such role at Mercedes, which by now everyone knows is pretty effing dumb) although most of the time he tries to behave like one, and so many times this year he has spoken, acted, and operated in matters that should concern Paddy Lowe, not him, that makes you think really. They lost Brawn on the Paddy L story, everybody and their granny - except, it seems themselves -  knew Lowe is incapable of filling Brawn's shoes. So now, they have Lowe, who is a good engineer without the expertise and most of all, the authority to command even the sporting side of an operation the size of Merc, Niki, who has no active role, but is a media figurehead at the most - which is a relief btw - and Toto, who tries to run things, but he is not the TP. WTF is Lowe doing? Reliability is below standard, they make stupid pit calls, and they seem to be less and less capable to put two reliable cars on track at the same race. Who's authority is that?? Lowe's, or Toto's? It's sure not Niki's.

 

So, concerning the OP, I really don't like Horner, and I think he would find himself in a Vettel-like situation,who lost his mojo in the four years he drove Newey's  exhaust blown designs with the Renault engine mapping to go with it. Still, if not Horner, they should get someone capable as fast asthey can because Lowe was a huge mistake. He is not a leader, and to me, Toto doesn't seem as a capable TP either, unfortunately.

 

I agree with all of this. Sadly.

 

Lowe gave an interview to a Russian website http://www.f1news.ru...owe/97883.shtml where he 'clarifies' his role (google translate used):

 

 

 

Question: That's why I'm asking. In the Red Bull will not seek a replacement Newey and its functions shared among several employees. More and more teams are going down this path, abolishing the position of technical director. Could it be that the process of creating a machine in modern Formula 1 can not depend on one person? One gets the impression that it is more important to have a properly structured framework. Is not it? Paddy Lowe: Yes, today the creation of the machine - a complex process. 25 years ago, the technical director worked, roughly speaking, for the engineering board with rulers and pencils. 40 years ago, he drew after it, got behind the wheel and raced on it (laughs). Perhaps that is why they then brought not so many new products, since all winter doing the drawings, and then were busy racing. This is an outdated concept of the technical director. now the amount of work that needs to be done, just can not run by one person. CTO should watch too many processes. You can see how many teams are starting to use other models of management, when the duties of Technical Director distributed among several people. For example, in the Mercedes I am responsible for the technical and sporting side of work, but, technically, I'm not a technical director. I have three other directors, which cover three different areas of work, working on different programs. This Aldo [Costa], Geoff [Willis] and Mark [Ellis]. But it is our structure. At Ferrari it is different, at Red Bull - another


#42 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 19:47

You make is sound as though no other team had considered hiring Newey.  Every team manager had a vision to bring Newey into their team.  Only Horner had Red Bull's bank account. 

Yup, Bobby Rahal tried it too.... It was even the same team  :eek:  :eek:  :eek:  :eek:

 

Stewart GP has done well to win 4xWDC  :up:  :up:  :clap:


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 29 September 2014 - 19:48.


#43 sopa

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 19:50

But as for the question in the title topic. Mercedes is not in direct need of Horner as they have a different management structure. As to what to do to eliminate some of the arguable mistakes, which include managing drivers? Perhaps we need to remember Mercedes in its current disguise is still a relatively new team. Not even the 2010 team, but a newer one, which has undergone further re-structuring. Some of the people are relatively new in their roles, like Toto Wolff. I believe this is a learning year for Wolff. Hence some of the misjudgements can be forgiven.

 

Although Red Bull achieved great things, I remember they also had some teething troubles, even after the team was already well-established. For example around 2009-2010 they still did plenty of strategy mistakes, which they have ironed out since then.



#44 ollebompa

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 19:50

Merc made a big mistake letting Brawn go. They will fall apart in a few year with Toto and Paddy(although I think Toto is awesome,but not a good theam leader)



#45 Hans V

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 20:06

Horner has the easiest job in the paddock. He doesn't have to worry about money, Mateschitz more than takes care of that. He doesn't have to worry about about engineering, Mateschitz got him Newey and have given Newey the company creditcard. He doesn't have to worry about race strategy, Newey takes care of that. He doesn't have to worry about drivers, Marko (kind of) handles them. What his job description is I don't know, but he is pretty much a communications manager who has to throw good parties and be a rent-a-friend for Bernie. I'd love to have that job (except for the Bernie-thing)!

Can't see how he would be an asset to Merc, but it would have been fun to see him try to handle the Hamilton/Rosberg situation ("Oh Nico, come on....").

#46 sopa

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 20:11

Horner has the easiest job in the paddock. He doesn't have to worry about money, Mateschitz more than takes care of that. He doesn't have to worry about about engineering, Mateschitz got him Newey and have given Newey the company creditcard. He doesn't have to worry about race strategy, Newey takes care of that. He doesn't have to worry about drivers, Marko (kind of) handles them. What his job description is I don't know, but he is pretty much a communications manager who has to throw good parties and be a rent-a-friend for Bernie. I'd love to have that job (except for the Bernie-thing)!

Can't see how he would be an asset to Merc, but it would have been fun to see him try to handle the Hamilton/Rosberg situation ("Oh Nico, come on....").

 

In this way you can say the Mercedes TP's have the easy job, because Lauda, Wolff and Lowe can always say the other guy is responsible for things. :p  Or the Ferrari TP has the easy job, because Domenicali/Mattiacci could rely on Di Montezemolo/Marchionne getting them the money. Horner would fit in nicely there.

 

Or it is not quite that simple...



#47 Fatgadget

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 20:43

Umm.So Toto is not TP at the Silver arrows team?..Who is the head honcho then? Was always under the impression who deflected the flak when **** hit the fan was it! And Toto certainly fits in that pigeon hole thats far!!

Edited by Fatgadget, 29 September 2014 - 21:10.


#48 Frank Tuesday

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 23:37

It wasn't a question of money. Ok, not only. And that is exactly why Horner doesn't qualify for the job at Merc the OP is suggesting.


Right. It was the ability to set up the technical department however he saw fit, and the promise of non-F1 projects, both of which were possible because of Red Bull money.

#49 CoolBreeze

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 02:27

He might be better than Wolff.

 

Everyone is better than Wolff. he doesn't seem to have a clue about what he's doing,..



#50 BRG

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 12:50

Everyone is better than Wolff. he doesn't seem to have a clue about what he's doing,..

That must be why he built up a successful business, made a fortune for himself, bought a share of Willaims and then was head hunted by Mercedes to take over there.  Clearly not a clue.   :rolleyes: