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Too early for F1


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#1 HistoryFan

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 13:10

With Max Verstappen will enter F1 in 2015 I wonder what drivers made a too early F1 debut. I think his father Jos in one driver to mention, but also Jim Crawford I think.



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#2 LotusElise

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 14:26

Ricardo Rodriguez springs immediately to mind, although he had had quite a lot of experience for someone so young.



#3 Macca

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 14:58

Some said Kimi Raikkonen after only 23 car races (mostly in Formula Renault) before F1, or Jenson Button after one season in FF and one in F3..................they were wrong.

 

Paul M



#4 D28

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 16:03

Ricardo Rodriguez springs immediately to mind, although he had had quite a lot of experience for someone so young.

He was 19yrs, 6 mo when he debuted at Monza placing the Ferrari 2nd on the grid. By then he had enjoyed 5-6 years of intense competition in bikes and powerful sports cars. Delaying his debut a year or so would not have altered his general approach to racing. He was instantly competitive and didn't make any foolish mistakes I can recall. His fatal accident cannot definitively be blamed on driver error, as a broken suspension piece was also reported.


Edited by D28, 30 September 2014 - 18:59.


#5 JHSingo

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 17:17

Jaime Alguersuari. :p



#6 john aston

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 18:03

Richard Robarts; still waiting ...



#7 BRG

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 18:14

Some said Kimi Raikkonen after only 23 car races (mostly in Formula Renault) before F1, or Jenson Button after one season in FF and one in F3..................they were wrong.

 

Paul M

I disagree.  Both would have benefitted from several more years in the junior formulae to learn their trade.  The fact that neither peaked (if winning a WDC is peaking) until 7 or 8 years after their F1 debuts suggests that neither was really a fully formed GP driver at first and had a lot of learning to do.  F1 isn't - or shouldn't be - a learning category.



#8 scheivlak

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 19:00

I disagree.  Both would have benefitted from several more years in the junior formulae to learn their trade.  The fact that neither peaked (if winning a WDC is peaking) until 7 or 8 years after their F1 debuts suggests that neither was really a fully formed GP driver at first and had a lot of learning to do.  F1 isn't - or shouldn't be - a learning category.

There was nothing immature about Raikkonen's 2003 campaign. He came pretty close to winning the title and he would have been a worthy champion that year already.



#9 Doug Nye

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 19:08

Reubens Barrichello?

 

DCN



#10 Tuboscocca

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 19:28



I 'offer' Mike Thackwell, 'bettered' Rodriguez then record, as youngest...
 
Michael


#11 Sharman

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 20:23

I wonder how many competitive vehicles JMH had driven before being let loose in a full blooded grand prix car 



#12 LotusElise

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 20:35

I disagree.  Both would have benefitted from several more years in the junior formulae to learn their trade.  The fact that neither peaked (if winning a WDC is peaking) until 7 or 8 years after their F1 debuts suggests that neither was really a fully formed GP driver at first and had a lot of learning to do.  F1 isn't - or shouldn't be - a learning category.

 

You could say that about a few people, including Mika Hakkinen. It's really hard to call, as drivers often race for less competitive teams in their first years.



#13 scheivlak

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 21:29

I wonder how many competitive vehicles JMH had driven before being let loose in a full blooded grand prix car 

And we, simple furreners, should know who's meant with 'JMH'?



#14 LotusElise

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 21:59

I think it's Mike Hawthorn.



#15 PCC

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 22:08

Reubens Barrichello?

 

DCN

Interesting suggestion. Do you think his young age meant that he just took more years to reach his full potential, or that he never achieved that full potential because he wasn't experienced enough when he started (this question could be applied to anyone mentioned on this thread)? In other words, would Reubens at his peak have been a better driver had he entered F1 later?



#16 D-Type

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 22:27

Chris Amon?

Had he been more mature when he entered F1 perhap he could have handled it better.

Come to think about it, a bit like Barrichello



#17 scheivlak

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 22:34

I think it's Mike Hawthorn.

I see. But the inclusion of his name makes little sense in relation to title ("too early") of this thread - that's why his name didn't cross my mind. He finished fourth in his first WDC GP which was - OK, just nitpicking because of the title of the thread  :D  - Formula 2 btw! 

One might even say that he was an established Grand Prix driver, even having won one, by the time he got in F1  :p



#18 RStock

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 22:52

He was not young when he made his debut, but any age was always going to be too young for Yuji Ide.



#19 scheivlak

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 23:13

Chris Amon?

Had he been more mature when he entered F1 perhap he could have handled it better.

 

Maybe without his F1 experience and results (his rather brilliant 5th place in Zandvoort in 1964 sticks out) he wouldn't have his chance to drive a competitive sports/prototype car like the Ford he drove to victory in Le Mans - which in a way must have brought him a contract with Ferrari.... I think that early F1 adventure proved pretty fruitful.

 

Another example might be Peter Revson - he had a far more difficult start in F1 IIRC.


Edited by scheivlak, 30 September 2014 - 23:14.


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#20 Rob G

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 03:09

Esteban Tuero. He did well in half a season of F3, but then he blew through half a season of F3000 without any results and achieved little the following year in Formula Nippon before jumping into the shark tank at the age of 19.



#21 bill p

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:07

With Max Verstappen will enter F1 in 2015 I wonder what drivers made a too early F1 debut. I think his father Jos in one driver to mention, but also Jim Crawford I think.

 

 

Why Jim Crawford?  He was 25 when he first entered Formula 1



#22 Stephen W

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:08

With Max Verstappen will enter F1 in 2015 I wonder what drivers made a too early F1 debut. I think his father Jos in one driver to mention, but also Jim Crawford I think.

 

I don't think Jim Crawford made his appearances in F1 too early just with the wrong team.

 

One to consider would be Beppe Gabbiani who was a rising star in F2 but his career path went into a downhill spiral when he started driving F1s. Again maybe with the wrong teams but I think a couple more years in the Junior Formulas would have helped.



#23 Tim Murray

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:58

Although Jim Crawford was 27 (not 25) when he made his F1 debut, he had had comparatively little racing experience . The opening poster in this earlier thread on him thinks it may have been as few as 25 races, though this wasn't confirmed:

http://forums.autosp...7-jim-crawford/



#24 Sharman

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 09:54

scheivlak, on 01 Oct 2014 - 00:34, said:

I see. But the inclusion of his name makes little sense in relation to title ("too early") of this thread - that's why his name didn't cross my mind. He finished fourth in his first WDC GP which was - OK, just nitpicking because of the title of the thread  :D  - Formula 2 btw! 

One might even say that he was an established Grand Prix driver, even having won one, by the time he got in F1  :p

In which case why was it not titled "Too young" rather than "Too early" (sorry I can't access emoticoms so I can't stick my tongue back!)



#25 ensign14

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 10:28

Peter Revson - was a much better driver when he came back.

 

Riccardo Patrese probably needed a couple of years knocking off his rough edges; he wouldn't have had a reputation in F1 of being a bit brutal. 

 

The posterboy for this might be Christian Klien.  He looked quite a talent in the lower formulae - 2nd in Euroseries F3, Nico Rosberg mired in its midfield - but was Red Bulled into the top flight before he had the nous to deal with a canny operator like Webber. 

 

Then there was the odd story of Esteban Tuero.  God knows how he qualified for F1, given his record, but when there looked very promising.  And having had F1 handed to him on a plate he gave it up without any sort of a fight at all.  Contrast someone like Ghinzani who clung on with his fingernails.  There must be a story there...



#26 Peter Morley

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:09

Compared to most of the drivers mentioned here Jos Verstappen Jr is starting from a far worse position which has nothing to do with his inexperience. 

 

Most of them weren't hyped as much and the driver can't make much difference these days - explaining to the non-enthusiast that Verstappen qualifying half way down the grid a couple of places ahead of his team mate is an outstanding performance isn't what they are being led to expect and the way F1 is these days, barring freak conditions, there's no way he's going to stick a Toro Rosso on the front row.

 

So it is likely that interest in him will drop off pretty quickly at which point all the talk will be about whether he can retain his seat - as with Button, the Finns etc if he stays long enough he could end up doing alright but his young age and inexperience will no longer be relevant.

 

Amusingly I had to look up Verstappen Sr's 1994 Benetton performances the other day, he had rather a lot of accidents and the results weren't impressive, particularly compared to his team mate.



#27 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:12

F1 drivers are ruthless beasts, they all see themselves as the best driver in the world, they accept nothing but winning, and scoff at the idea that a team mate is better than them. If they are being outraced by a Team mate, they create explanations rather than excuses, if they are the better driver in the team and not winning it is naturally the car.

 

I do not think a racing career of 20 - 50 races is enough to give a driver that 'ruthlessness', regardless of age they have to repeatedly over several seasons and several series show themselves as the Alpha Dog, and THEN they should go to F1.

 

Kimi turned out alright, which does not mean his entry in to F1 was at the right time, currently Red Bull is littering driving talent all over the place by bringing their drivers in too early. Jos was brought in too soon, Klien was brought in too soon, Jaime was brought in too soon.

 

Algusari is the poster boy for not being a ruthless beast, after F1 he dropped away completely, he does not have what it takes to battle for his career when not served to him, he undoubtedly had and has a lot of driving talent, which does not make a natural good or great driver. The drivers need to show themselves maximizing their talent, and I can not see them doing that when they have not been through the wars in the lower formulas.

 

I had not thought of Rubens in this connection, but thinking about it after it was suggested I agree he should have had a longer maturing before entering F1, then he would have been a better driver in F1 (and I do not think he was a bad one).

 

:cool:



#28 MCS

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 15:23

Rikky von Opel



#29 ensign14

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 15:46

 

Algusari is the poster boy for not being a ruthless beast, after F1 he dropped away completely, he does not have what it takes to battle for his career when not served to him, he undoubtedly had and has a lot of driving talent, which does not make a natural good or great driver. The drivers need to show themselves maximizing their talent, and I can not see them doing that when they have not been through the wars in the lower formulas.

 

 

There was a story that Vitantonio Liuzzi missed a test so he could have a bed delivered.  Had he had to fight to get to F1, rather than having RB fund his way there, I wonder whether he would have taken a different approach. 

 

Also, if you have RB backing you from 15-22, and then they drop you, how savvy are you at recruiting fresh sponsors?



#30 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 16:16

I might wrankle some with this...

Bruce McLaren. With very little experience he was pitched in at the deep end, I suspect he relied very heavily on assistance from Brabham in his first couple of years.

#31 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 16:26

There was a story that Vitantonio Liuzzi missed a test so he could have a bed delivered.  Had he had to fight to get to F1, rather than having RB fund his way there, I wonder whether he would have taken a different approach. 

 

Also, if you have RB backing you from 15-22, and then they drop you, how savvy are you at recruiting fresh sponsors?

 

I was never sold on Liuzzi, a driver who DID get all the chances needed. Bed story re-inforce my personal not anything special as a driver view of him.

 

Yes to sponsorship securing ability, but then why the heck not sign up / on with an agent powerhouse? Like or dislike Flavio, Webber and Alonso have clung on to him on other side of Singapore debacle. There must be others I do not know about (Robertson?), but having your high school friend take over makes no sense. Kevin have a female Danish agent, she may or may not be good but he came straight in to a premium seat.

 

:cool:



#32 man

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 19:13

Pierluigi Martini.



#33 D28

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 19:50

I might wrankle some with this...

Bruce McLaren. With very little experience he was pitched in at the deep end, I suspect he relied very heavily on assistance from Brabham in his first couple of years.

True, perhaps, but he was quickly was on the pace and avoided any blatant rookie mistakes. He was very young and held some of the youngest records for years.

He led the F2 cars home at his first GP at Nurburgring 1958, and was  2nd to Brabham in the F2 contingent at Morocco.

From his first proper F1 ride, Monaco 1959, it was only seven races to his win at Sebring. This is impressive progress. He then went on a tear winning the next year's  opening race in Argentina and finishing 2nd at Monaco. Thus in early 1960 he found himself leading the WC race, before Brabham asserted himself and won 5 on the trot.

Interestingly John Cooper chose McLaren over the more experienced and usually quicker Masten Gregory in 1960 when the works team shrunk to  two drivers. Partly due to superior mechanical abilities for sure, but McLaren was a quick and extremely reliable driver. 

It is hard to see how he would have benefited from more seasoning in F2.



#34 MCS

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 20:18

Raul Boesel



#35 Keir

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 02:23

One either has "IT" or not.

 

Quite a list of good drivers here and some not so.

 

Amon saw his first F1 race from inside the car. His record of being a top line driver is without debate.



#36 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 05:08

His first F1 race, yes, but he'd already been driving former F1 cars from the 2.5-litre formula...

He ran in the NZGP three times prior to this, once in a 250F, once in a Cooper and once in an up-to-date Lola 2.5, all of these races with International competition. There were several other International races in which he ran and some local racing as well, including some in Australia driving the second string Scuderia Veloce 2.5 Cooper.

With regard to McLaren, I feel sure he benefited greatly from working with Jack and it was possibly their working relationship that had a big hand in ensuring he was kept on in lieu of Gregory. When it comes to wins in those first two years, you have to keep in mind that he was driving the title-winning car and was able to take advantage of the downfall of others.

Taking two wins early like that would certainly have helped him on his way.

There are some parallels to the introduction of Jacques Villeneuve to F1, but I'd certainly say he was more ready for it.

#37 HistoryFan

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 20:38

He was 19yrs, 6 mo when he debuted at Monza placing the Ferrari 2nd on the grid. By then he had enjoyed 5-6 years of intense competition in bikes and powerful sports cars. Delaying his debut a year or so would not have altered his general approach to racing. He was instantly competitive and didn't make any foolish mistakes I can recall. His fatal accident cannot definitively be blamed on driver error, as a broken suspension piece was also reported.

why was Rodriguez driving for Ferrari in Monza 1961? How came that? he was very, very young for these times...



#38 ensign14

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 22:10

He'd been racing while underage.  Papa R was very wealthy and very well connected.



#39 D28

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 01:09

He was a special case, a driving talent that appears only occasionally. He finished 2nd at Le Mans 1960 (A. Pilette)  when they let him enter after rejecting him on age 2 years previously.. He also finished 3rd at Sebring 1961 with brother Pedro. His F1 debut was overshadowed by the horrendous tragedy, but he did qualify just just behind von Trips and ahead of P Hill and Ginther. A broken fuel pump ended his race on lap 13. 

I don't think there was any controversy about his age at the time, he had proven himself capable and quick many times over.



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#40 Roger Clark

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:27

Remember too, that Rodriguez drove the less powerful 60-degree Ferrari at Monza. The brothers had given the works cars a very hard time at Le Mans, battling for the lead until they retired in the 22nd hour. I'm not sure whether this impressed Ferrari or angered him!

Ferrari had entered a fourth car at the Nurburgring, driven by Willy Mairesse. He crashed and damaged the car (not an unusual occurrence) but I don't know whether he was injured, thus giving Ricardo his opportunity at Monza.

Edited by Roger Clark, 24 October 2016 - 09:28.


#41 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 13:38

Pastor Maldonado? I don't know his previous experience but he seemed out of his depth in F1...


Edited by Dick Dastardly, 24 October 2016 - 13:39.


#42 D28

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 14:05

Remember too, that Rodriguez drove the less powerful 60-degree Ferrari at Monza. The brothers had given the works cars a very hard time at Le Mans, battling for the lead until they retired in the 22nd hour. I'm not sure whether this impressed Ferrari or angered him!

 

Probably the latter. Ferrari enjoyed selling cars to his private clients like NART. But he didn't enjoy it when they competed too hard against the factory cars. Stories exist of mysterious mechanical faults plaguing customer cars in an era when Ferraris were practically bullet proof in endurance racing.



#43 Roger Clark

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 17:10

Stories exist of mysterious mechanical faults plaguing customer cars in an era when Ferraris were practically bullet proof in endurance racing.

I hadn't heard that!

#44 BRG

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 18:21

Pastor Maldonado? I don't know his previous experience but he seemed out of his depth in F1...

He had a huge amount of experience over more than 8 years, including a F. Renault and a GP2 championship win.  If he was out of his depth in F1, it certainly wasn't due to lack of preparatory experience.



#45 Charlieman

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 18:45

With Max Verstappen will enter F1 in 2015 I wonder what drivers made a too early F1 debut. 

Jackie Stewart started in F1 after a small number of Formula 3 races with Ken Tyrrell. It seems like a few race starts but JYS raced a lot of sports cars before he raced in single seaters. 

 

One thing about Jackie is that he was 21 years old when he gave up shooting and a smidge older when he took up racing.

 

JYS was not a child.



#46 pacificquay

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 21:15

He had a huge amount of experience over more than 8 years, including a F. Renault and a GP2 championship win.  If he was out of his depth in F1, it certainly wasn't due to lack of preparatory experience.


He did crash a lot but he also won a Grand Prix, which is more than the vast majority

#47 Doug Nye

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 09:20

And then there's Alonso's intro to F1.

 

DCN



#48 Sterzo

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 15:42

With the benefit of two years since the opening post on this thread, we can confidently name one driver who did NOT enter F1 too early: Jos Verstappen.



#49 kayemod

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 15:52

With the benefit of two years since the opening post on this thread, we can confidently name one driver who did NOT enter F1 too early: Jos Verstappen.

 

I suspect that a few of his fellow drivers, Kimi Räikkönen for one, would give you an argument on that statement...



#50 opplock

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 16:13

I'm not aware that Kimi Raikkonen had strong views about Jos Verstappen. Probably best not to mention his son Max in Kimi's presence however.