136 replies to this topic

[LORDBYRON]

The heat is on lol

 

https://twitter.com/...689114175750144

[Laura23]

The heat is on lol

 

https://twitter.com/...689114175750144

Get with it, we knew about this hours ago and the same account has since said that due to fast developments the goods could be returned to the company very soon. So clearly some cash has been found somewhere, or the debts have been ruled to be Fernandes' and not the new owners. 

[Andy Davies]

Yes i seen that from the link but the statement Caterham gave contradicts this as they say

 

An action was threatened yesterday against a supplier company to 1MRT. This company is not owned by 1MRT and it has no influence over the entry of CaterhamF1 or the entrant.

 

http://www.theguardi...d-prix-bailiffs

 

Sheriff say the writs they enforced where against Caterham F1 Ltd https://twitter.com/...621226005856256

 

1MRT say the writ was nothing to do with them and against one of their suppliers http://www.caterhamf...-2-october-2014

 

Oh and a quick look at the T&Cs for the Caterham F1 site reveals 1.1    Our website is owned and operated by Caterham Sports Ltd ("Caterham F1 Team").  (http://www.caterhamf1.com/terms)

 

It's a whole murky mess…

[Risil]

These guys have their own television series, so we'll probably be seeing some footage in a few months time.

 

I didn't have you down as a daytime TV maven!

[Disgrace]

I didn't have you down as a daytime TV maven!

 

Scandalous accusation. I found the information while scouring their website.

[LORDBYRON]

Sheriff say the writs they enforced where against Caterham F1 Ltd https://twitter.com/...621226005856256

 

1MRT say the writ was nothing to do with them and against one of their suppliers http://www.caterhamf...-2-october-2014

 

Oh and a quick look at the T&Cs for the Caterham F1 site reveals 1.1    Our website is owned and operated by Caterham Sports Ltd ("Caterham F1 Team").  (http://www.caterhamf1.com/terms)

 

It's a whole murky mess…

yes its a mess as this company check shows  Fernandes has left the board  but from what i seen they are both the same company 

 

 

http://data.companie...ompany/07042086

 

 

 

ukdata.com/company/07042086/CATERHAM-SPORTS-LIMITED

Edited by iii, 02 October 2014 - 21:49.

[Fastcake]

Wouldn't the tyres still belong to Pirelli? Or do the teams purchase several sets of them?

 

Scandalous accusation. I found the information while scouring their website.

 

If you want a better excuse, I remember the Beeb rebroadcasting that programme during the evenings.

[TennisUK]

yes its a mess as this company check shows  Fernandes has left the board  but from what i seen they are both the same company 

 

 

http://data.companie...ompany/07042086

 

 

 

ukdata.com/company/07042086/CATERHAM-SPORTS-LIMITED

 

The company with the magic registration number required for the F1 entry is not a UK limited company - it is Malaysian. In essence any UK concern setup is effectively a subcontractor. Regardless of who owns the UK Ltd. company (or companies) the Malaysian-based shell company is the valuable bit. Who owns that I do not know, perhaps the mysterious new Swiss/Arab owners. Who owns the UK based Ltd. company is largely irrelevant if it's only purpose is to allow inexpensive contract terminations. The physical assets may not have a huge amount of value either, and the IP may all be owned by 1MRT in Malaysia rather than the UK based operation. Quite handy if you were, say, planning to continue the team next year but base it in, say, Germany...

[Petroltorque]

The company with the magic registration number required for the F1 entry is not a UK limited company - it is Malaysian. In essence any UK concern setup is effectively a subcontractor. Regardless of who owns the UK Ltd. company (or companies) the Malaysian-based shell company is the valuable bit. Who owns that I do not know, perhaps the mysterious new Swiss/Arab owners. Who owns the UK based Ltd. company is largely irrelevant if it's only purpose is to allow inexpensive contract terminations. The physical assets may not have a huge amount of value either, and the IP may all be owned by 1MRT in Malaysia rather than the UK based operation. Quite handy if you were, say, planning to continue the team next year but base it in, say, Germany...

I think you have summed up the situation well. There can be little doubt that the Caterham Franchise will relocate to Kolles's facility in Gedding leaving Fernandes to sort out the historical debt he still owes.

Edited by Petroltorque, 03 October 2014 - 06:18.

[Anders Torp]

... leaving Fernandes to sort out the historical debt he still owes.

Didn't expect Fernandes to dump the team like he did, nor to leave such a mess.

[Andy Davies]

The company with the magic registration number required for the F1 entry is not a UK limited company - it is Malaysian. In essence any UK concern setup is effectively a subcontractor. Regardless of who owns the UK Ltd. company (or companies) the Malaysian-based shell company is the valuable bit. Who owns that I do not know, perhaps the mysterious new Swiss/Arab owners. Who owns the UK based Ltd. company is largely irrelevant if it's only purpose is to allow inexpensive contract terminations. The physical assets may not have a huge amount of value either, and the IP may all be owned by 1MRT in Malaysia rather than the UK based operation. Quite handy if you were, say, planning to continue the team next year but base it in, say, Germany...

 

Yeh, question is who owns the IP, assets and debts, but they still have to race in the UK, so creditors might cause problems next year

[Disgrace]

Caterham's Manfredi Ravetto insists factory raid by bailiffs was 'no big drama'.

 

“In order to keep the whole structure quiet, in order to make no drama, in order to make no revolution after the takeover, we never decided to make a physical split,” he said. “Today I regret this. I think we should have done a physical, geographical split from day one.”

 

Could they realistically afford this? It all sounds so dishonest. Also, via Byron Young:

 

Caterham press conference. Twenty minutes of my life I'll never get back. #f1

 

Caterham's Ravetto insisted not "a single spanner had been taken". Later accepted a test car had gone, a simulator, Japan GP car parts...

 

..F1 wheels taken by bailiffs, tvs, drill and machining equipment, jacks, pumps, starters (but no spanners..note). That kind of presser #f1

 

Ravetto said steering wheels seized were only "memorabilia". As I said 20 minutes of my life I'll never get back #f1

[MrPodium]

The company with the magic registration number required for the F1 entry is not a UK limited company - it is Malaysian. In essence any UK concern setup is effectively a subcontractor. Regardless of who owns the UK Ltd. company (or companies) the Malaysian-based shell company is the valuable bit. Who owns that I do not know, perhaps the mysterious new Swiss/Arab owners. Who owns the UK based Ltd. company is largely irrelevant if it's only purpose is to allow inexpensive contract terminations. The physical assets may not have a huge amount of value either, and the IP may all be owned by 1MRT in Malaysia rather than the UK based operation. Quite handy if you were, say, planning to continue the team next year but base it in, say, Germany...

 

The UK limtied company will have an agency agreement in place to act on behalf of the parent company. They can then go off and trade, run (or not) the team from Leafield. As it stands it seems that creditors have made an application through either the county (or magistrates - the high court won't have been invlolved in these proceedings) court for judgement to be placed against the UK Ltd company, which has been granted. At which point, a court appointed bailiff (a sherrif of the magistrate) attended to remove goods which they have title to, as they weren't paid for. The goods will be held in a secure location until such time as Caterham have settled the debt, or the goods are auctioned. If they are auctioned, they will be sold off at pennies in the pound (usually around 20 - 25%) to reclaim the debt. However, as they're sold at a reduced value there will still be a large proportion of the debt still outstanding, which Caterham will still be liable for. If this is the case, then the creditor may apply to the courts for a winding up petition to be issued against the UK Ltd company. If anyone really wants to find further information, then under the companies act, you are perfectly entitled to request a copy of the set of registers which will be held at the registered office of the UK Limited Company. Of interest, the register of directors, members (shareholders), and register of directors interests will be of particular significance as they will tell you in effect who are the beneficial owners of the company. You could also have a quick browse at the register of mortgages and debentures and if you really wanted to, then check out their last annual return, which will give you a financial snapshot of the company.

 

Anyway, from what I can gather Caterham seem to be in a mess from which they probably won't recover under the current ownership and management.

Edited by MrPodium, 03 October 2014 - 10:58.

[Buttoneer]

If its the one in this video from last year, then you'll need a big room:

 

If the seat is comfortable enough then you can sleep in it and that must free up a lot of room right there.

[SophieB]

Alan Baldwin ‏@alanbaldwinf1  2h
2 hours ago
The mad, sad world of F1. Lotus revisited. Caterham say Caterham is not affiliated to Caterham http://bit.ly/1rRDBDW 

...which drew this intriguing reply:
 

Adam Cooper ‏@adamcooperF1  2h2 hours ago

@alanbaldwinf1 Hilarious. Who left the team in such a state with unpaid bills, etc? And ask Tony about the real story with the Rolls ;-)

[Nemo1965]

[Buttoneer]

Interesting that there's been nary a word from Mr Joe Saward about this.  Considering his connection (non-exec Director IIRC?) you might have though he'd be able to write a short piece and remove all confusion and doubt.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Who cares about that. I'm too busy enjoying the journalists grumbling about the first press conference in F1 history that didn't give them useful information.

[Petroltorque]

In reply to your post Sahara has posted a piece on his blog about the Caterham situation. It is mainly reportage. Until we know what the investors bought we remain in he dark. I don't know what the situation is with the historical debt. I can appreciate that if you have bought the 2014 licence you are liable for the debts of that season but surely they can't be liable for anything before that.

[Hans V]

Saward is/was a non-executive director of Caterham Cars, i.e. not the F1 team. I respect him a lot as a journalist, especially hs passion and strong opinions. However, allthough he wasn't involved with the F1 team he was/s is affiliated with Tony Fernandes, which wasn't a wise move for an indepenent journalist in my view.

Anyway, the Caterham situation is just sad and I wonder how long they can keep it going. But I've said the same about Lotus for a long time.

[GaryLandyfan]

Saward is/was a non-executive director of Caterham Cars, i.e. not the F1 team. I respect him a lot as a journalist, especially hs passion and strong opinions. However, allthough he wasn't involved with the F1 team he was/s is affiliated with Tony Fernandes, which wasn't a wise move for an indepenent journalist in my view.

Anyway, the Caterham situation is just sad and I wonder how long they can keep it going. But I've said the same about Lotus for a long time.

I have far more faith in Genii Capital than I do the consortium that bought CaterhamF1. Genii have owned the majority of Enstone since 2009, so they have experience, Caterham has Kolles, and we know how his projects work out...

[Petroltorque]

In an attempt to shed some light on the darkness; the setup seems to be as follows: 1MRT hold the licence do the Caterham F1 team who in turn are supplied by various contractors. The contractors are paid by 1MRT. If the contractors supplying the team default on their creditors it's the contractors who become liable. So the Pound, Euro, Dollar, ( delete as appropriate) stops with whomever owns the contracting business. It would also add weight to what Ravetto said that relocating from Leafield would make more sense since they would no longer be associated with the contractor businesses in situ. Just my 2 cents.

[F1matt]

I watched the interview with Ravetto, he was quite Blasie about moving factories, I thought if a team wanted to move it would be a logistical nightmare to move factories, didn't Mclaren plan the move to MTC with military precision? it looks like Caterham are in a position where they can't return to the factory, they are lucky that we are in the flyaway races and no Europe as they might have had even more equipment seized.

[BRG]

I watched the interview with Ravetto, he was quite Blasie about moving factories, I thought if a team wanted to move it would be a logistical nightmare to move factories, didn't Mclaren plan the move to MTC with military precision? it looks like Caterham are in a position where they can't return to the factory, they are lucky that we are in the flyaway races and no Europe as they might have had even more equipment seized.

McLaren's move to MTC was under Ron so of course it was planned to the last iota, and went like clockwork.  As for Caterham, they already moved once - to Leafield - so no reason why they shouldn't move again.  And no-one would notice if it affected their performance.....

[LORDBYRON]

Lets hope its not the start of the end.

[Myrvold]

Caterham has Kolles, and we know how his projects work out...

 

Yup.
Project One: Ended up with great results in 2009 for Force India, and we know where they are now.
Project Two: Managed to scramble together enough for HRT to get to the grid in a few weeks in 2010, same goes for 2011. Got out, and the team barely lasted another year.

[DarthWillie]

Dutch Media report:

Een raceteam on the run?
Latest news from Caterham: "The cars which raced at the Japanese Grand Prix and Russian Grand Prix are not being sent back to the teams base at Leafield, England, instead they will be prepared for the Grand Prix of the Americas at the Kolles-Kodewa facility in Greding, Germany."

[BRG]

This team is cooked. Stick a fork in it.

[noikeee]

If they're gone it's 20 cars next year. How many more teams would have to fold until 3-cars are forced to kick in? Is Bernie obliged to field a minimum of 20, 18 or 16 cars, anyone knows?

Edited by noikeee, 14 October 2014 - 18:24.

[Cozzie]

He's resurrecting it as Forza Rossa or whatever it's called. This is all part of his masterplan

[EthanM]

He's resurrecting it as Forza Rossa or whatever it's called. This is all part of his masterplan

 

yup ... well not "resurrecting" more like cannibalizing whatever assets Caterham has (the entry probably being the most valuable one) and moving it to that Romanian backed team

[dau]

If they're gone it's 20 cars next year. How many more teams would have to fold until 3-cars are forced to kick in? Is Bernie obliged to field a minimum of 20, 18 or 16 cars, anyone knows?

I think 20 was the minimum number of cars the promoter guaranteed, but i seem to remember that was scrapped a while ago. Maybe i'm mixing that up though, because just last month Mallya was quoted that: "the regulations and the agreements do provide that if the grid is less than 20 cars then participating cars will run a third car." 

 

http://www1.skysport...r-teams-in-2015

[noikeee]

He's resurrecting it as Forza Rossa or whatever it's called. This is all part of his masterplan

 

That would explain a lot...

 

I think 20 was the minimum number of cars the promoter guaranteed, but i seem to remember that was scrapped a while ago. Maybe i'm mixing that up though, because just last month Mallya was quoted that: "the regulations and the agreements do provide that if the grid is less than 20 cars then participating cars will run a third car." 

 

http://www1.skysport...r-teams-in-2015

 

Thanks. So that means we're on the limit for next year if Caterham's gone and Forza Rossa doesn't come in to replace them immediately (aren't they aiming for '16 together with Haas?). Which is what you'd expect sadly with the recent noises about Caterham. That explains why there's so many 3rd car talk, because any extra issues on Sauber/Marussia/others and Bernie's suddenly ****ed.

 

Surely if you're Bernie you'd want to ensure the top teams already have got 3rd cars up and running before you're forced by the regulations to have them, just in case.

 

Not sure how it all fits in with the 2016 entries of Forza Rossa and Haas as then suddenly there wouldn't be space for 3rd cars anymore, though I suppose they can get rid of them again, and it's best to have them ready as a contingency plan in case the new teams don't make it.

[turssi]

This 'miracle worker' Kolles must be on Bernie's pay roll by now, right?

Edited by turssi, 15 October 2014 - 14:10.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

If they're gone it's 20 cars next year.

If we're lucky.  Marussia, Sauber, and Force India all have one foot in the grave and leaning over.

[Ross Stonefeld]

On paper I don't know how Force india does it, given it's all 'house sponsors' and those seem like terribly weak foundations. Unless it's a tax exercise(I often wondered if Virgin Atlantic was intentionally loss making for the Virgin group...) or something. And yet the team appears very well run. Reliable, consistent cars. Have a handful of races a year where they run very well.

 

You'd think they'd be more like Sauber. Another one where the numbers don't seem to work. They've had such impossibly little sponsorship since BMW left.

[LORDBYRON]

Dutch Media report:

Een raceteam on the run?
Latest news from Caterham: "The cars which raced at the Japanese Grand Prix and Russian Grand Prix are not being sent back to the teams base at Leafield, England, instead they will be prepared for the Grand Prix of the Americas at the Kolles-Kodewa facility in Greding, Germany."

Strange why incur double shipping costs it makes no sense there is noting to gain