177 replies to this topic

[Menace]

will ALO find his maximum punishment at McLaren-Honda?

 

Brilliant... 

[Gorma]

Wow... I guess we've reached the point where no team will ever (know if their car can) reach the ultimate 110% "true maximum" unless Alonso is driving for them. I don't know how/why these threads aren't closed immediately.

[DrF]

So Ferrari have decided that two solid drivers are the best way to go... two guys who this year are unable to adapt to their cars and consequently have been trounced by their team mates... two guys who seem to "need" something special in a car to get the most out of it are going to the team that have not even come close to producing something special for more years than I care to imagine... the team that's had no wind tunnel correlation, no design innovation and now has had it's management and soon it's structure turned inside out, that's a fitting end and the just deserts for a team who've failed for too long.

we'll, they'd better give them a decent car then, rather than rely on their drivers to drag mules onto the podium.

[apoka]

With only two drivers per team, regulations changing and drivers being humans, you never know how close they are to the limit.

 

But looking at the situation specifically: The thread more or less builds on Vettel having a bad year. However, you have to consider that he didn't enjoy the regulations from race 1 and faced quite significant problems in pre-season and during many races. Nevertheless, he is meanwhile on the pace in qualy and solid in races with tyre management being his main problem. Interestingly tyre management has been a key strength of him in previous years, so who knows whether that problem will carry over to the next years (and as I argued in the other thread I believe he'll stay at Ferrari long term). In summary, the raw pace is there, racecraft is good, he has the nerves for a WDC fight and whether or not he can keep the tyres alive will be very evident. So I think we'll know as well as in any other F1 team when the drivers are close to the maximum.

 

[Gorma]

I just find it interesting that this is the first time in years that a driver in the Red Bull system has jumped to another team?

 

I am really excited to see how Seb compares to a driver outside the R.B system in equal equipment. Webber retired before we saw how the later version compared with the rest of the grid. Before that he had been with Red Bull for a long time. Toro Rosso drivers have usually left F1 after being dismissed. JEV looks to be following suit (sadly).

 

No other top drivers have gone to R.B either. The likes of Lewis, Alonso, Button, Kimi and Massa are all well travelled and have faced each other in some variation in recent years. However, none of these have mixed with the R,B drivers, or vice versa in equal machinery. 

 

It is sort of like two worlds colliding. I am excited to see how they compare in equal machinery.

What are you talking about? Seb drove for BMW, Daniel Ricciardo drove for Hispania and both of them drove against Liuzzi who drove for Force India and Hispania after driving for Red Bull and Toro Rosso. It's like not all of the Red Bull drivers have been living in a bubble.

[sopa]

Wow... I guess we've reached the point where no team will ever (know if their car can) reach the ultimate 110% "true maximum" unless Alonso is driving for them. I don't know how/why these threads aren't closed immediately.

 

But Vettel/Raikkonen shouldn't worry. There is only one Alonso. So everyone else are bound to "underperform" in the car. If Vettel/Raikkonen underperform, it will be hard to replace them anyway. Current Ferrari is like Moto GP Ducati. Only Stoner could ride it. Even Rossi couldn't.

 

Maybe it will be good for Ferrari. Once Stoner left, Ducati was forced to start re-structuring, instead of relying on their great rider. Maybe this is the kick-up in the Ferrari's backside as well. And maybe this is what the new management partly has in their mind. The design team MUST produce a good car or they will look bad. It doesn't matter if Alonso can save them a P5 in a rubbish car. And Vettel could finish only P8 in this machine. They need a good car anyway. Regardless of who is driving. You can't win in an average car, even Alonso couldn't. So they need a great car and a proper shake-up in the team, even if it means losing Alonso.

 

So Ferrari fans shouldn't worry about the drivers. "Oh my god, Alonso would have finished 5th, instead of 7th and 8th that Vettel and Raikkonen managed. What a rubbish line-up." Sorry, who cares about a P5. Ferrari must produce a winning car regardless and all problems are solved! So worry about the design team and forget about drivers. If Vettel and Raikkonen finish 7th, 8th, 10th and struggle, it still PROVES that the car is rubbish. Don't you think? Even if Alonso would have finished higher, Vettel's and Raikkonen's performance would still indicate that there is a problem with the car. Just like currently. They are not like Yuji Ide, who could finish 10th in the best car, they are much better.

 

As long as the drivers are proven quality drivers, World Champions and F1 frontrunners, it is all right. If Ferrari hired Maldonado and Ericsson, then there would be a problem!

Edited by sopa, 04 October 2014 - 19:59.

[pdac]

So if there's a 3rd Ferrari next season, who will they put in it? Maybe there's the answer to the original post.

[sennafan24]

What are you talking about? Seb drove for BMW,

That was a very short lived and a long time ago. Seb was also very young. D.R also was very young when he faced Liuzzi for half a season. It is not like a big name from R.B has mixed it with the top drivers in the past 5 years or so.

 

Liuzzi is an exception to the "bubble" as you described it, hence why I said former Toro Ross drivers have "usually" not competed in F1 after being dismissed.

Edited by sennafan24, 04 October 2014 - 21:02.

[RedRabbit]

But Vettel/Raikkonen shouldn't worry. There is only one Alonso. So everyone else are bound to "underperform" in the car. If Vettel/Raikkonen underperform, it will be hard to replace them anyway. Current Ferrari is like Moto GP Ducati. Only Stoner could ride it. Even Rossi couldn't.

 

Maybe it will be good for Ferrari. Once Stoner left, Ducati was forced to start re-structuring, instead of relying on their great rider. Maybe this is the kick-up in the Ferrari's backside as well. And maybe this is what the new management partly has in their mind. The design team MUST produce a good car or they will look bad. It doesn't matter if Alonso can save them a P5 in a rubbish car. And Vettel could finish only P8 in this machine. They need a good car anyway. Regardless of who is driving. You can't win in an average car, even Alonso couldn't. So they need a great car and a proper shake-up in the team, even if it means losing Alonso.

 

So Ferrari fans shouldn't worry about the drivers. "Oh my god, Alonso would have finished 5th, instead of 7th and 8th that Vettel and Raikkonen managed. What a rubbish line-up." Sorry, who cares about a P5. Ferrari must produce a winning car regardless and all problems are solved! So worry about the design team and forget about drivers. If Vettel and Raikkonen finish 7th, 8th, 10th and struggle, it still PROVES that the car is rubbish. Don't you think? Even if Alonso would have finished higher, Vettel's and Raikkonen's performance would still indicate that there is a problem with the car. Just like currently. They are not like Yuji Ide, who could finish 10th in the best car, they are much better.

 

As long as the drivers are proven quality drivers, World Champions and F1 frontrunners, it is all right. If Ferrari hired Maldonado and Ericsson, then there would be a problem!

 

How did that turn out for them?

[f1RacingForever]

If the car is quick it won't matter much. If it's not then Ferrari will be in trouble because neither is good at adapting. If Fernando was forced out I hope it bites them in the ass with the latter scenario. Fernando won't be there to keep them respectable.

[sopa]

How did that turn out for them?

 

  So far not good. But now finally there are some positive signs. Ducati has been bought by Audi (last year I think) and this year's bike is finally pretty decent. Dovizioso often has good finishes and even Iannone is close to the front. I'd say 2014 Ducati is the best Ducati we have had since... 2010? Or before?

[garagetinkerer]

Well, Vettel won in extremely dominant cars, while Kimi won thanks to external reasons (political things going on in McLaren). Yeah, unless Ferrari produces a rocketship, they'll have two drivers that will struggle unless things go perfect for them every weekend.

 

Not surprising these people are the same ones that want to believe Ferrari kicked Alonso out as if Alonso was the problem.

Good to see that people here already have excuses for Vettel's fifth.

[sopa]

Good to see that people here already have excuses for Vettel's fifth.

 

It would be especially hilarious to see the reactions on forums. Vettel is already now considered to be the luckiest driver of all times, let alone what would be felt then!

 

Seb Vettel - the genius of picking the right teams. At least there is something Alonso can learn from him!

[garagetinkerer]

Big difference actually, Hamilton in 2011 was too busy crashing left, right and centre and his pace and abilities won't in question as just how good Lewis was or wasn't. Alonso and Hamilton were evenly matched and finished equal on points in 2007. There's a far cry from both Vettel and Raikkonen this season struggling to match their teammates in pace and points. It's only considered a bad season because they are beaten and questions of both pair being overrated... 

Yes, all that crashing never affected the extent of his abilities or how should they be assessed, well at least in the eyes of his fans. I'm happy that he's doing well this year, but seriously some of what gets pushed around on interweb by fans, it is just downright silly.

 

Well, there were questions being raised about Vettel and his ability when he was busy wiping the floor with the competition. That with the backdrop of McLaren claiming that they had the best car towards end of 2011. So i don't see how this was about to get any better, when they finally have a proper excuse. A lot of people have been waiting with tender rear ends (you know, ********) for him to slip, and now he did a bit.

[sennafan24]

 A lot of people have been waiting with tender rear ends (you know, ********) for him to slip, and now he did a bit.

 

 

The anger in this thread from both sides is a tad much. 

 

Peace and love guys 

[garagetinkerer]

But it's very unfair to Alonso and Ricciardo, if they are superior drivers, that they should get beat to the WDC by Kimi and Vettel in a superior car.   

Yes, what a superior car Ferrari is this year. Obviously it has nothing to do with talent if either of Raikkonen and Vettel wins.

 

[garagetinkerer]

I somehow dispute that reasoning. They have been selective occasions over the years where both Vettel and Raikkonen have struggled. Raikkonen has had issues before 2014, 2008 is one of the seasons and during that season the car was the best car available that year, even his championship years were difficult before he got his act sorted. Vettel in 2012 before the diffuser was utilised was qualifying behind Mark and having a poor initial start to the season.

 

These issues are not new, in the past they've been shown to affect the drivers. The only conclusion I can come to is that Ferrari must be building a rocketship for the next few years to resolve all of the issues both drivers have with their driving style.  

Lol... Ferrari don't have budgets approaching anything remotely what Mercedes spent building their car. This was the first time, which was shocking as a tifoso, Ferrari whinged about how much the others are spending. Mind, this wasn't the first time someone spent more than them building a car.

 

Of course, if Vettel wins again, it is obviously the car.

[garagetinkerer]

The anger in this thread from both sides is a tad much. 

 

Peace and love guys 

It is not anger, but it is exasperation on one side. Apparently with 4 titles, the winningest driver on the roster is not good enough for some.

 

Hey, the thread hasn't hit lows we have seen in other parts of this forum. It is not that bad really.

[garagetinkerer]

 that would be your personal assessment and nothing else...These two have demonstrated themselves to be part of the very best drivers in F1 and nothing will change that.

 

  Using the same twisted logic,one could assume in hindsight that Hamilton's championship in 08 was down to a blazingly fast car as immediately later,he failed to beat Button consistently over the span of 3 full seasons..I guess Whitmarsh and Co should look like geniuses too right now for dragging a ''modest'' driver to a WDC win.

Don't forget the Mercedes either

[bub]

It's possible that neither driver could be able to get the maximum out of the car (this year proves that) or it's possible that they could get the maximum out of the car (previous years suggest that), it depends on the car. If the leading driver says anything other than 'the car feels great' some people will be thinking 'another driver would be significantly quicker in that car' (and some people will still think that no matter what).

It is a slightly surprising choice of drivers from Ferrari, they must be confident they can build a car to suit their drivers driving styles.

[Kenstate]

For example this article from a very reliable journalist: http://www.blick.ch/...-id3174190.html

According to this, Ferrari will still pay Alonso's salary, i.e. they chose to fire him. They called Fernando's bluff and he got caught out. The italian journalists applauded in the press room.

And for the record, I won't claim this is the truth, but that the matter is not clear cut and that there are just as many sources who suggest Alonso was fired as those who say he chose to leave.

I'm in the camp that Ferrari first and foremost have to come up with a car capable of winning the title, in which case Vettel and Räikkönen will do the job with much less fuss and just as fine as Fernando. The latter may be better in adapting and driving ill handling cars, but we've seen how many titles it has won them. Time to try something new.

Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to the "What if"-games next year. You know, the one where Kimi is a triple champ

you're not going to mind if i take this ****ing huge ass grain of salt considering that the site you linked me to is a german website reporting on the goingson at maranello.

 

It's just like when kimi fans took it seriously when a "respected" finnish reporter insinuated that alonso and kimi were not driving equal cars at singapore. consider the source, people.

[sennafan24]

It is not anger, but it is exasperation on one side. Apparently with 4 titles, the winningest driver on the roster is not good enough for some.

4 titles can not be used as a defence each time someone says something critical about Seb. 

 

Under these regulations, it is pretty conclusive that Kimi and Seb have not got as much out of their machinery as possible. Their teammates have beaten them by a quite a margin (more so on Kimi's side of fence). I understand why this thread was made, even if it is bound to provoke flamebait. 

 

It would be a presumption to assume Seb and Kimi will not get a handle of these regulations next year. It would also be a presumption to suggest otherwise. It is a case of stating an opinion of which way affairs will go, hence the existence of this thread. 

 

It is problematic to say a driver will get everything out of his machinery, as I think that is impossible. I will say that I think both will improve in 2016, and get quite a bit out of the machinery given to them. Seb is a grafter, so I expect him to improve by a quite a bit. Plus, Kimi should also show some improvement as the car could/should be tailored to cover his weaknesses.

 

But again that is just my prediction. I am wrong a lot more than I am right these days 

[kissTheApex]

 

Hey, the thread hasn't hit lows we have seen in other parts of this forum. It is not that bad really.

Agreed. People haven't yet started their psycho analyses from 2-minute youtube clips, and haven't started dishing out their intimate knowledge of  formula 1 drivers, team personnel they see on television (maybe) 10 minutes every two-three weeks during racing season. We definitely have multitude of lows to hit in this thread. Just you wait.

[oetzi]

Of course neither Ferrari driver will find the limit of the Ferrari. Neither of them is Fernando Alonso. Nor fit to stand on his shadow.

 

/thread

 

(we can only pray)

[garagetinkerer]

4 titles can not be used as a defence each time someone says something critical about Seb. 

 

Under these regulations, it is pretty conclusive that Kimi and Seb have not got as much out of their machinery as possible. Their teammates have beaten them by a quite a margin (more so on Kimi's side of fence). I understand why this thread was made, even if it is bound to provoke flamebait. 

 

It would be a presumption to assume Seb and Kimi will not get a handle of these regulations next year. It would also be a presumption to suggest otherwise. It is a case of stating an opinion of which way affairs will go, hence the existence of this thread. 

 

It is problematic to say a driver will get everything out of his machinery, as I think that is impossible. I will say that I think both will improve in 2016, and get quite a bit out of the machinery given to them. Seb is a grafter, so I expect him to improve by a quite a bit. Plus, Kimi should also show some improvement as the car could/should be tailored to cover his weaknesses.

 

But again that is just my prediction. I am wrong a lot more than I am right these days 

I've seen drivers with a lot less to show for, defended quite vehemently by the lot here ;)

 

Nothing new to add i guess... it is not like those panning Vettel will stop even if he were to do something spectacular. If a man who was only the second person to win 9 GP's in a row can be written off in such a way, surely there's something to say about the objectivity of that lot. Is that to say that he hasn't had problems? No! It is to say that perhaps waiting will be in order. Surely when you win 2 titles in a crunch against arguably the best driver on track, you have perhaps done better, and will do so again. Then again, one may not, but that is why one would wait, before suggesting that a very successful driver was merely a fluke, as some are since 2012 if not before.

Edited by garagetinkerer, 05 October 2014 - 02:30.

[bourbon]

That was a very short lived and a long time ago. Seb was also very young. D.R also was very young when he faced Liuzzi for half a season. It is not like a big name from R.B has mixed it with the top drivers in the past 5 years or so.

 

Liuzzi is an exception to the "bubble" as you described it, hence why I said former Toro Ross drivers have "usually" not competed in F1 after being dismissed.

 

Well Mark had driven in other teams facing other non-RBR drivers before Vettel challenged him, so that was actually one face off - albeit it happened in RBR.  Nonetheless, the team only came into existence 9 years ago and have their own junior and senior teams, so it is not too surprising that we are only just seeing them start to break out into other teams and face non-RBR drivers.  I expect if they remain in the sport, we will see it happening frequently down the line - assuming they keep bringing in cracking drivers.

 

 

 

4 titles can not be used as a defence each time someone says something critical about Seb. 

 

It is not ever welcomed in any conversation at anytime for any reason whatsoever.  It is like Vettel failed to read and follow the script which was clear that one of the other top drivers was supposed to do what he did.  He is the interloper and as punishment, his 4 titles may not be brought up at all.  Not to show how hard he worked for them or even that he was deservedly rewarded for his effort, or as you indicate, against a point of criticism, no matter how relevant the titles may be.

 

Under these regulations, it is pretty conclusive that Kimi and Seb have not got as much out of their machinery as possible. Their teammates have beaten them by a quite a margin (more so on Kimi's side of fence). I understand why this thread was made, even if it is bound to provoke flamebait. 

 

But both have shown vast improvement (not mentioned, not alluded to nor acknowledged for those repeating the fact that they have struggled).  Which is relevant because it means that they are adjusting to the regs and will not be at ground 0 next season (and we'll have different tyre compounds anyway). 

It would be a presumption to assume Seb and Kimi will not get a handle of these regulations next year. It would also be a presumption to suggest otherwise. It is a case of stating an opinion of which way affairs will go, hence the existence of this thread.

 

That seems to assume they've made no headway in that regard, when they clearly have.
 

 

It is problematic to say a driver will get everything out of his machinery, as I think that is impossible. I will say that I think both will improve in 2016, and get quite a bit out of the machinery given to them. Seb is a grafter, so I expect him to improve by a quite a bit. Plus, Kimi should also show some improvement as the car could/should be tailored to cover his weaknesses.  But again that is just my prediction. I am wrong a lot more than I am right these days 

 

I do not know what you mean by "tailored to cover his weaknesses", but the better way to look at it is building on the strengths of the athlete (which is what developing a car around a driver means). 

Edited by bourbon, 05 October 2014 - 03:24.

[Ikebana]

Good to see that people here already have excuses for Vettel's fifth.

 

Nah, just an educated guess based on what it's been seen in the last 5 years.

Edited by Ikebana, 05 October 2014 - 03:33.

[garagetinkerer]

Nah, just an educated guess based on what it's been seen in the last 5 years.

You mean on the interweb, or the track? BTW, 2007 was more than 5 years ago