25 replies to this topic

[NocturnalTendencies]

Guessing cost as one of the reasons, why doesn’t the FIA have its own team of certified on-track race marshals?

 

For example, the NHL has a team of professional referees who travel game-to-game.

 

Just curious

[charly0418]

cost

[275 GTB-4]

Guessing cost as one of the reasons, why doesn’t the FIA have its own team of certified on-track race marshals?
 
For example, the NHL has a team of professional referees who travel game-to-game.
 
Just curious

It does...the FIA hierarchy authorises a given country's governing body which then maintains a cadre of on/off track race marshals.

[yasushi888]

I think Nascar and/or Indycar has its own full time safety team? But then its a bit easier to deploy them when every incident is a safety car situation

[TimRTC]

IMSA, NASCAR and NHRA do, but as mentioned they use full course cautions and the safety team ride on the circuit in trucks to get to the scene, so far fewer are needed.

 

F1 and other European based motor racing series have incident marshals on every post so the cost would be huge.

 

Ironically Japan is probably one of the best places in the world for marshalling outside of Europe given the amount of racing they hold there - it is races in Korea, India etc. where I worry that inexperienced marshals might be a problem.

[redreni]

I don't see the problem with using local marshals. The only problem comes when you build a track in the middle of an area with no motorsport culture at all, specifically for a Grand Prix, and then have to import foreign marshals, but I can think of a solution for that problem too.

 

That said, 58 secnds elapsed between what was very obviously an extremely serious accident involving Bianchi on Sunday, and the medical car being scrambled, so maybe the interaction of local marshals and the largely Western European bods in Race Control isn't what it ought to be...

 

Maybe a workable compromise would be to have one permanent F1 marshall at each post handling communication with race control, asking for and obtaining Whiting's permission to enter the track, advising race control on whether local yellows are enough or a SC is needed, etc. Then the leg work could still be done by local marshals who are used to handling the equipment that the circuit has, know the track layout best etc.

[NocturnalTendencies]

Thanks for the information guys and I didn’t know that 275 GTB-4 alas it makes one wonder why circuits ask for volunteer marshals if a cadre is readily available.

 

This COTA Race Marshal Volunteer form for track and corner worker positions is an example.

 

http://www.circuitof...unteer/marshals

 

Albeit COTA requires a three-year tenure to qualify, the fact of the matter is drivers heavily rely on marshals for numerous reasons including safety. Mixing that order of responsibility with the word “volunteer” doesn’t sit right especially after Bianchi’s accident which I'm not pinning on the marshals.

 

As long as they run a tight ship, that’s all that matters.

 

Thanks again

[ExFlagMan]

I am not sure that motor sport could survive, apart from as a pastime for the uber rich, if it had to rely on a paid marshalling force - very few could afford race entry fees if they had to include paying for marshals.

Silverstone normally has about 1000 marshals for a GP - all are volunteers, who are trained and graded for the various tasks. The average club race in the UK probably has 100-200 marshals so if you had to pay the minimum wage it would cost over £50 a day per marshal, and as many club meetings only have less than that no of competitors it would bump up the entry fees somewhat.

I seem to recall many years ago a local circuit tried recruiting paid marshals for mid-week testing from the local job-centre, seem to recall it did not last very long as those in charge found most where somewhat less than enthusiastic, especially when conditions got wet and cold.

One problem with bringing in an external team is that it reduces the 'local knowledge' that is often very useful when conditions start to deteriorate, e.g. where and how quickly pools/streams of water form when it rains, how tricky it is to retrieve abandoned vehicles from certain positions.

[Gyno]

Bernie takes a pay cut and they could afford it.

[ExFlagMan]

I guess so, but I wonder just what such a team would contribute to safety, after all F1 already has a permanent team of senior officials in their own control room - the very team that many on here are blaming for the whole Bianchi episode.

[pdac]

cost

 

 

Just how much would the cost be? I seem to remember they fined McLaren 100M a few years  back - how far would that go?

[anneomoly]

Just how much would the cost be? I seem to remember they fined McLaren 100M a few years  back - how far would that go?

 

Well, if we take Silverstone's 1,000 marshals... that's - for a 20 season race because my maths ain't that good - 5,000 whatever-currency-that-was per person per race, to pay, feed, transport, house, clothe and train them, so considering what you get for your money then as long as McLaren want to pay 100M a year...

 

And I wouldn't necessarily say that paying someone to do a job makes them any better at it than a volunteer.

[pdac]

Well, if we take Silverstone's 1,000 marshals... that's - for a 20 season race because my maths ain't that good - 5,000 whatever-currency-that-was per person per race, to pay, feed, transport, house, clothe and train them, so considering what you get for your money then as long as McLaren want to pay 100M a year...

 

And I wouldn't necessarily say that paying someone to do a job makes them any better at it than a volunteer.

 

Hmm, a lot of marshals then.

[Imperial]

I'd like to ask the OP, do you basically mean an F1 marshalling team or are you referring to an FIA team to cover any FIA series?

[ExFlagMan]

Given that on most weekends there are more than one FIA series running, I guess there would be a lot of opportunities to be a member of such a FIA Race Marshal Team.
Hang on - I always thought that I was a member of such a team, as I was licenced by an organisation that was affiliated to the FIA, even though I, like everyone else, was just a volunteer.

This idea is not new - several of us said if Bernie was to pay for it, we would quit work and go 'full time' marshalling "We flag anywhere, anytime" was to our slogan - but somehow we never managed to persuade 'the suits' that it was a goer.

[DainBramaged]

Even if you sent to an event every weekend, would it be enough to live on. Even £50 a session may not compete with some folks full time weekly/monthly wage. Also I think if you were doing F1 work, it wouldn't be practical to do other events. Due to logistics and travel etc, you would probably have to have team of F1 only marshals, so you would only be working 20 weekends a year. You would never be able to make enough over 20 weekends to replace a full time wage, but if you are working full time, you wouldn't be able to be on a full time F1 marshal team. It just wouldn't work. Plus, as has already been said, feeding. finding board, flying and providing all other necessities and expenses to ~ 1000 extra men and women is neither cost effective or practical. It may work in a national series (even then it would be challenging), but an international one is a no go. What would be good is if every marshal was trained to the same/similar standard and had to pass some sort of written and practical test (at the FIA's expense of course). Having "FIA accredited" marshals may be a good thing, although I must admit, the standard of marshaling seems to be very high in most of the countries F1 visits. I know that they send Aussie and British (and maybe others...Monaco/Canada??) marshals out to new events to train up the new marshal teams.

Edited by DainBramaged, 19 October 2014 - 20:54.

[ExFlagMan]

I did forget to say that the 'discussion' regarding a flying F1 Marshals Team took place one Saturday evening of a multi-day Donington race meeting and 'drink had been taken' - I am not sure if anyone would have taken it up even if Bernie had personally requested it (and I am led to believe that he can be very persuasive!).

The £50 a day figure I quoted was only an illustrative minimum figure based on the UK 'minimum wage' - it was not a serious attempt to estimate what it would cost.

I am not sure a written test for marshalling would be necessary/useful, cannot think what you would set as questions that would prove effective as a marshal.
In the UK there is a well established training/accreditation scheme for marshals that is based on more practical experience rather than theory (based on signatures for each days marshalling experience and attendance at training days) plus on-circuit assessments leading to licence grade updates.
In addition there are rigid criteria for anyone wishing to volunteer to marshal at the BGP, and that only qualifies you for the preliminary selection list!

Edited by ExFlagMan, 19 October 2014 - 21:18.

[DainBramaged]

I did forget to say that the 'discussion' regarding a flying F1 Marshals Team took place one Saturday evening of a multi-day Donington race meeting and 'drink had been taken' - I am not sure if anyone would have taken it up even if Bernie had personally requested it (and I am led to believe that he can be very persuasive!).

The £50 a day figure I quoted was only an illustrative minimum figure based on the UK 'minimum wage' - it was not a serious attempt to estimate what it would cost.

I am not sure a written test for marshalling would be necessary/useful, cannot think what you would set as questions that would prove effective as a marshal.
In the UK there is a well established training/accreditation scheme for marshals that is based on more practical experience rather than theory (based on signatures for each days marshalling experience and attendance at training days) plus on-circuit assessments leading to licence grade updates.
In addition there are rigid criteria for anyone wishing to volunteer to marshal at the BGP, and that only qualifies you for the preliminary selection list!

That's fair enough. I wasn't really answering anything you said specifically, I was just speaking generally. Also my £50 a session (there usually being multiple sessions per day) was just pointing out that even if full time F1 marshals were paid this way, it wouldn't be enough to live on...it wasn't really aimed at what you said.

 

Fair enough a written test might be of no use. Saying that there is a written (well its on computer now) theory test for driving in the UK which is the easiest thing in the world as it's mostly common sense, yet folk still fail. If you can't even pass the basic theory test then you shouldn't be on the road. It weeds out the total idiots, so it may also be useful after all. My point was some sort of international test or accreditation would be good - not all countries have marshals as good as the UK's (although there are lots of amazing marshals in other countries too) - the theory test was just an example but the point still stands. Even an all practical test (although some theory will always help) would help some sort of international standard. They could use the UK version as a model. Again, I'm not looking into the finer details, just the idea.

[WalterTrout]

Bernie takes a pay cut and they could afford it.

 

Bernie isn't the FIA.

The FIA have plenty of money to afford permanent marshalls. Since the current system costs them nothing though why would they want to change it?

The driver's association should really be pushing for increased safety as they had in the past, I haven't heard one quote from them collectively in recent years.

[275 GTB-4]

Having "FIA accredited" marshals may be a good thing, although I must admit, the standard of marshaling seems to be very high in most of the countries F1 visits. I know that they send Aussie and British (and maybe others...Monaco/Canada??) marshals out to new events to train up the new marshal teams.

Overall yes...however, but with any high profile (and a lot of lower profile events) you still get the "once a years", or egotistical know-it-all, un-knowledgeable, dangerous, types volunteering for all the wrong reasons.

The middle east has the biggest problem AFAIK, different cultures and approach to life means a different mind-set and work ethic etc

[markeimas27]

On a marshalling team of 1000 (which is obviously more than just corner workers and flaggers), for a 19 race season, and on a fag packet calculation, it would be circa £23m for flights, hotel nights and expenses. This does NOT even taken into account any form of payment. 

 

Having scared you with that number. I actually believe that if a real number could be agreed on (e.g. just a  core traveling team of corner workers and flaggers) then this could become a real opportunity. I could also forsee that someone like Allianz could be convinced to underwrite this (e.g sponsor it). It seems a genuine opportunity for F1, which is going begging. hmmm... 

 

FOM is at 6 Prices Gate isn't it..... *starts dialling...

[ExFlagMan]

The question is - what practical difference would it make, apart from probably alienating the local marshals, to have this 'elite' team coming in and taking over. You still need local knowledge, if only to know the capabilities of the local marshals in rest of your crew.
I guess anyone who has actually marshalled a bit has seen the 'super-experienced' incomer - The "I've marshalled at Monaco and Pau so I know all about marshalling at a street circuit" type - who turns out to be as much use as chocolate fireguard.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 20 October 2014 - 12:05.

[anneomoly]

Genuine question - would it help to have F1 only marshals? Or does marshalling in other categories at other times and doing a variety of things give you a broader base of education?

 

(and would effectively removing the more experienced marshals from each circuit to be the flying F1 team be counterproductive to safety in everything except F1 and its support acts?)

Edited by anneomoly, 20 October 2014 - 16:49.

[ExFlagMan]

A couple of very interesting questions. My own personal answers would be -
 

Genuine question - would it help to have F1 only marshals? Or does marshalling in other categories at other times and doing a variety of things give you a broader base of education?

I am not sure, but my gut feeling is that only doing F1 meetings would actually reduce the effectiveness of those marshals. This is based on the belief that I learned much more at club/national/Non-F1 FIA type meetings than I ever did at a GP, certainly in the latter years of my involvement where, as a flag marshal, the amount of decision making I had to do at a GP was gradually being eroded by decisions being taken by race control, e.g. instructions as to who/where/when to blue flag coming over radio. About the only decision making left for the flaggie was the initial yellow flag reaction to incidents and RC soon took over control of what flags to use, so the flag marshal was merely echoing the light panels.
Even as a track based marshal you probably get much more 'real life' experience of responding to incidents at the average clubbie than at any GP - certainly a greater range as well as number of incidents.
 

(and would effectively removing the more experienced marshals from each circuit to be the flying F1 team be counterproductive to safety in everything except F1 and its support acts?)

This is a hard one, but I guess it really depends on who would be attracted to the nomadic life involved.
Most of those more experienced marshals who might be regarded as suitable candidates are probably those less likely to be attracted - by the time you have gained enough experience as a marshal you have possibly also attracted more 'baggage' that could dissuade you from volunteering - career, family responsibilities etc.
I guess it might become more attractive to some once those responsibilities have diminished, but I am note sure an 'elite F1 Marshals Team' of pensioners and social misfits is what is required - images of 'Last of The Summer Wine on Tour' come to mind.

As I stated these are only my immediate thoughts - would be interesting to hear from the few other posters on here with marshalling experience.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 20 October 2014 - 17:36.

[275 GTB-4]

I am not sure, but my gut feeling is that only doing F1 meetings would actually reduce the effectiveness of those marshals. This is based on the belief that I learned much more at club/national/Non-F1 FIA type meetings than I ever did at a GP, certainly in the latter years of my involvement where, as a flag marshal, the amount of decision making I had to do at a GP was gradually being eroded by decisions being taken by race control, e.g. instructions as to who/where/when to blue flag coming over radio. About the only decision making left for the flaggie was the initial yellow flag reaction to incidents and RC soon took over control of what flags to use, so the flag marshal was merely echoing the light panels. Even as a track based marshal you probably get much more 'real life' experience of responding to incidents at the average clubbie than at any GP - certainly a greater range as well as number of incidents.

As another "ExFlagMan" (Hi Nick!) I agree...what everyone needs to understand is that whilst Effwun might be the considered the pinnacle, on race day officials are forced to sit around for long periods waiting for an hour of frantic activity. Hardly a way to build up experience! At other meetings you get (say) a 20 race program with a variety of different vehicles and the different techniques required to add to safety of the event.

[TimRTC]

Although I have only done a little marshalling thus far, I do attend a lot of live events and as mentioned clubman races are often incident filled and make for some very good training for marshals. Afterall flagging is generally the same and when there are open-wheelers involved, the extraction and recovery are very similar. F1 isn't some magic series that requires a whole different set of skills.

 

I would also worry that a great many of the marshals taken to form a "flying circus" would be British - not that BMMC marshals are better than those of other countries, but that English would probably be demanded for ease of communication and UK marshals do seem more willing to travel overseas. The result is that a lot of the best quality marshals and perhaps more importantly, those with the time and willingness to take part in a lot of events, would disappear off an already underpopulated scene and could seriously affect domestic race event marshalling.