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#1 Spillage

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 16:20

There's been quite a bit of discussion about this in the thread about Bianchi's crash, but I thought a new thread might be better for discussing the safety of marshals more generally. As many people have noted, terrible as Jules' crash was, in many ways it was fortunate that no marshals were injured as well. I also remember an incident in Germany(?) this year where the marshals were recovering a Sauber from the pit straight, almost on the racing line, under only double waved yellows. In both cases I was surprised and concerned that the safety car was not deployed - not so much to protect the drivers as to protect the guys trying to recover a car from a dangerous position. 

 

So - should F1 be doing more to protect the marshals? Should we have go-slow zones in yellow flag areas, or is it more simply that both of the above incidents required a safety car? I think, not withstanding what was probably a freak tragic accident in Canada last year, F1 has been getting lucky in this respect for some time now. Here's hoping F1 can be more proactive and take steps to protect track workers before something really awful happens to one of them.



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#2 Zoetrope

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 17:03

I think marshalls are in bigger danger than the actual drivers.



#3 Alfisti

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 17:06

I touched on this re. the Bianchi discussion. Marshall safety is terrible, they are completely and utterly out of control. Suitl a few races back, the montreal death, bianchi's crash, there was also another race this time last year (forgot which one) where i was apoplectic at what i was seeing. They were just roaming the track with cars FLYING past.

 

It's a matter of time. 



#4 Tourgott

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 17:36

I think marshalls are in bigger danger than the actual drivers.

 

Absolutely. I guess the remain risk for the drivers is somewhat 0,1 % - 1%. But the risk for the marshals to be killed by an accident is much higher, maybe 20 % or even more. Last fatal accident happened just three years ago.



#5 Collombin

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 17:45

the risk for the marshals to be killed by an accident is much higher, maybe 20 % or even more..


What? You sound like Jackie Stewart.

Congrats to the OP on spelling "marshal" correctly, it must be spelt wrongly more often than not on these forums.

#6 santori

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 17:53

Yes. There's been a lot of talk of this being the worst accident in F1 since Senna, but marshals have died in that time. And I can't remember or find how many at the moment. The English Wikipedia article on fatalities in F1 says 'Track marshals and other race attendees who have died as a result of these accidents are not included in the list.'



#7 Kalmake

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 18:25

Three marshal deaths in the last 20 years. Last one was just last year in Canada as somebody was ran over by a crane. A loose wheel killed in Monza 2000 and australia 2001.

 

They did introduce wheel tethers after the Monza incident. I don't know if and what else has been done.



#8 noikeee

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 18:32

Yes. There's been a lot of talk of this being the worst accident in F1 since Senna, but marshals have died in that time. And I can't remember or find how many at the moment. The English Wikipedia article on fatalities in F1 says 'Track marshals and other race attendees who have died as a result of these accidents are not included in the list.'

 

It's as if they don't count - much like how F1 treats them.

 

They turn all runoff areas everywhere into infinite seas of tarmac, forbid any racing under conditions that warrant a full wet tyre, and then send these people out into the path of cars at racing speeds.



#9 Spillage

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 18:45

It's as if they don't count - much like how F1 treats them.

They turn all runoff areas everywhere into infinite seas of tarmac, forbid any racing under conditions that warrant a full wet tyre, and then send these people out into the path of cars at racing speeds.

Exactly this. F1 has its priorities in a muddle. They ban racing until the track is ready for intermediates, yet are prepared to allow guys to go out, with a digger no less, on the outside of a corner on a wet, dark day when there's every chance somebody else could hit the same puddle.

They also spent an hour fixing a broken barrier at Silverstone - in my opinion the right thing to do - yet the following race in Germany allowed marshals to remove Sutil's car from an extremely dangerous position without first neutralising the race. The safety of track workers just doesn't seem to be held as as important as that of the drivers.

#10 Newfoundlander

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 18:48

Last year at the Canadian GP a track Marshal was tragically killed when a mobile crane ran the Marshal over while tending to a crashed Sauber.

 

http://www.imotortim...fw-photos-17608



#11 demet06

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 19:07

As has been mentioned by a lot of commentators since the weekend, Martin Brundle had almost the identical accident in 1994 as Jules had on Sunday, except he missed the tractor crane by inches and hit a marshal and broke his leg. That could so easily have been the outcome again (or worse) as the marshals were around the crane at the time. It appears we've learned nothing in 20 years since that happened. It was just down to pure luck (both bad and good) that Jules hit the crane and not any of the marshals.



#12 pdac

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 19:56

As has been mentioned by a lot of commentators since the weekend, Martin Brundle had almost the identical accident in 1994 as Jules had on Sunday, except he missed the tractor crane by inches and hit a marshal and broke his leg. That could so easily have been the outcome again (or worse) as the marshals were around the crane at the time. It appears we've learned nothing in 20 years since that happened. It was just down to pure luck (both bad and good) that Jules hit the crane and not any of the marshals.

 

Sums up my feelings.



#13 redreni

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 19:56

I'm also very concerned about F1's handling of track safety, but I'm interested in solutions that work and not the over-simplified solutions offered by the Villeneuves of this world. I think there are circumstances in which there's nothing wrong with sending a marshal onto the track to do a specific job, e.g. picking up debris, under a local yellow. So I wouldn't support a blanket ban on the practice, but I think the post chief and the race director have to have various options at their disposal depending on the type of on-track intervention that is required, to make sure their people are protected, that cars on track are required by enforceable and enforced regulations to respond appropriately to incidents as directed by the flaggies and by race control, and to design these systems intelligently so that we're neither over-reacting by slowing the cars down on parts of the track where it isn't necessary to slow them, nor under-reacting by letting them come barelling through past the incident at high speed with just a half a second lift.

Where marshals don't need prolonged access to the racing line I would argue that local slow zones are, as a response, both more proportionate than a safety car and, crucially, safer than a safety car. The trouble with safety cars is they slow the cars both too much and too little: too little to be sure to provide a decent, safe working environment for marshals, and too much to allow the cars to run behind the safety car without having to resort to desperate weaving and erratic acceleration and braking and general fiddling with settings in order to ameliorate the inherent problems of overheating and loss of brake and tyre temps.

Local slow zones would allow race control to set a specific speed limit between any two marshals' posts, covering both the approach to the scene of the incident and the scene itself, thereby ensuring that cars will pass the incident much more slowly than they would under SC deltas, but because they would still be allowed to go at full racing speed for the rest of the lap, there would be no significant loss of temperature problem. That's a win-win for the marshals, medics, drivers and anybody else who may be present on the track. The only trouble with it is it's much fairer, in sporting terms, than a safety car in that it minimises the impact on the race, which will never do in the current climate of gimmickry and artificially bunching the field and trying to provoke accidents with standing restarts, etc. But it works in WEC, and with the advanced track status dash warning lights, information and timing loop delta systems that F1 already has, it could work even better in F1, because F1 would have the ability to manage the slowing down zones on the approach to the slow zones more tightly than the ACO currently can.

The other good thing about slow zones is that even if the situation is such that the field does need to be bunched up to give marshals prolonged access to the track including the racing line, there's nothing stopping race control from imposing a slow zone at the incident scene as well to ensure drivers go extra-slowly past the incident even before they catch the SC queue.

If we're going to have cars being removed during racing it's now clear that we need a better solution than exclusive reliance on either local yellows, or the massive over-reaction of a full-course caution for a localised issue that doesn't even require access to the track. Local slow zones are better for the racing and they're safer than using the SC all the time.


Edited by redreni, 07 October 2014 - 20:07.


#14 TimRTC

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 20:23

Two issues with automated "slow zones"

 

1) The cars running slowly are a lot quieter and thus a marshal distracted by an incident, or a driver extracting themselves might not hear an approaching car.

 

2) While installing such a system in F1 might be only a small fraction of the car's cost, it would be far more expensive to install such a system in the feeder formulae and so drivers will not have the experience with this when they move up. Not to mention that GP2 and GP3 are far more likely sources of incidents like this one given their higher crash rate and generally lower adherence to yellow flags.

 

While I dislike the excessive safety car based full course cautions that IMSA and Indycar use, they represent the safest option for drivers and marshals, and particularly in tracks in countries without experienced marshals, it would allow truck-based medical and rescue crews to access incidents more rapidly.



#15 ExFlagMan

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 20:41

I suggest some of you get your facts right before deciding 'marshals are totally out of control', running about willy-nilly on the track/gravel beds.
Of the three marshal deaths in F1 mentioned, in two cases the marshals where behind the barriers/debris fencing and the third occurred in the pit lane whilst recovering a car to the pits after the race was over.
The ones out of control are the F1 drivers who have somehow managed to persuade the FIA that they can ignore the basic flag rules designed to protect both themselves and the marshals by just displaying a token/minimal throttle lift in a yellow flag zone.
We only had the SC scenario introduced because drivers where ignoring the rules and rather than do anything that might upset the drivers the FIA decided a SC was the answer.
As usual with all such compromise solutions the result is now that the drivers ignore yellows even more as 'The yellows cannot be for anything really serious as or they would have brought out the SC'.

Lower adherence to yellow flag rules in the minor formulae is a direct result of young drivers emulating what the 'heroes' seem able to get away with.

On the plus side some of these formula do much better job on penalising drivers for yellow flag infringements than F1 has ever done - several penalties have been handed out this year in GP2 and GP3 - when was the last time a F1 driver got more than a slapped wrist for infringements.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 07 October 2014 - 20:56.


#16 ExFlagMan

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 20:58

Two issues with automated "slow zones"
 
1) The cars running slowly are a lot quieter and thus a marshal distracted by an incident, or a driver extracting themselves might not hear an approaching car.
 
2) While installing such a system in F1 might be only a small fraction of the car's cost, it would be far more expensive to install such a system in the feeder formulae and so drivers will not have the experience with this when they move up. Not to mention that GP2 and GP3 are far more likely sources of incidents like this one given their higher crash rate and generally lower adherence to yellow flags.
 
While I dislike the excessive safety car based full course cautions that IMSA and Indycar use, they represent the safest option for drivers and marshals, and particularly in tracks in countries without experienced marshals, it would allow truck-based medical and rescue crews to access incidents more rapidly.

They do not have experience of many other things that are unique to F1 cars ERS/DRS etc, when they move up and they seem to cope.

#17 johnmhinds

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 21:05

F1 marshal safety has been appalling for years and yet nothing has ever been done about it.

 

Australia 2012: A marshal is seen running blindly along a corner picking up debris and then strolls along the exit of the corner as half a dozen F1 cars pass him at full speed. 

 
Abu Dhabi 2012: Half a dozen marshals are sent out at the end of of a straight to pick up debris, no yellow flags are shown and a Lotus arrives while marshals are still running through the run off area.
 

Canada 2011: These marshals decide to run clean across the track into the blind spot and one falls over in the process almost getting hit by 2 cars.


Edited by johnmhinds, 07 October 2014 - 21:10.


#18 Seano

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 21:08

I think over the last 3 decades there has been a general decline in driving standards and a lot of it seems to be down to TV. You can see it in the BTCC and you see it in F1.

 

The series organisers apply pressure on everyone from the CoC down to turn a blind eye to non compliance to the sporting/event regulations purely to 'sex-up' the show for the TV camera's. The BTCC frequently seems to turn into a demolition derby - it supposed to be a non contact sport. As for the flags in F1 - they are just not treated with the respect they are due, sadly in this case with very bad outcome for Jules.

 

Some of the comments show a distinct lack of understanding of how the flagging process works - it can be  quite a bit more difficult than it looks, especially the blue, to consistently convey the right signal at the right time, balancing the flow of the competition whilst ensuring safety for all track side.

 

Seano

 

 

 



#19 ExFlagMan

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 21:10

Didn't the Canada 2011 example occur under the very 'safe solution' everyone seems to be clamouring for - ie under SC conditions?

Watch the video clip not just look at the still!

Edited by ExFlagMan, 07 October 2014 - 21:12.


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#20 johnmhinds

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 21:13

Didn't the Canada 2011 example occur under the very 'safe solution' everyone seems to be clamouring for - ie under SC conditions?

Watch the video clip not just look at the still!

 

No, the cars hadn't all been collected by the safety car before the marshals ran out, that's why they were still coming around that corner at speed.


Edited by johnmhinds, 07 October 2014 - 21:13.


#21 redreni

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 21:15

Two issues with automated "slow zones"

 

1) The cars running slowly are a lot quieter and thus a marshal distracted by an incident, or a driver extracting themselves might not hear an approaching car.

 

2) While installing such a system in F1 might be only a small fraction of the car's cost, it would be far more expensive to install such a system in the feeder formulae and so drivers will not have the experience with this when they move up. Not to mention that GP2 and GP3 are far more likely sources of incidents like this one given their higher crash rate and generally lower adherence to yellow flags.

 

While I dislike the excessive safety car based full course cautions that IMSA and Indycar use, they represent the safest option for drivers and marshals, and particularly in tracks in countries without experienced marshals, it would allow truck-based medical and rescue crews to access incidents more rapidly.

 

If you wanted local slow zones at a club race all you'd need is the boards and a cheap speed gun for each Observer. And make the Observers judges of fact. If there's a slow zone the drivers have to ensure they're not clocked speeding and reported to the Clerk of the Course.

 

And if the noise argument is a factor we'd better ban Formula E, then, because it can't be easy to hear them coming over the ghastly music they pump out over the loadspeakers.

 

And are you sure marshals on road and street courses in North America are any safer than they are in Europe? And if they are, is it due to the greater use of full course cautions? They certainly get more full course cautions supposedly protecting them, but it didn't stop several of them being run over, one fatally, in an Indycar race at Vancouver in the early 90s under a full course yellow. Back to F1, in 2000, F1 rookie Jenson Button nearly ran into the cars ahead of him at Monza on the run to Parabolica under SC conditions and, in his own words, "nearly hit a marshal" when he carooned onto the grass and into the armco, there was that incident between Schumacher and Montoya under the SC at Monaco, I lost count of how many times Trulli went off the track under SC conditions in his career, and at Hungary this year we had Grosjean crashing at relatively high speed during a SC period and slamming into the armco - it's just a litany of incidents, mostly caused either by excessive speed (Grosjean), inattention to the road caused by having to pay attention to so many other parameters and settings (Trulli) or erratic tyre-and-brake warming catching out cars behind (Button and Schumacher/Montoya). Slow zones reduce or eliminate all of those extra risk factors.



#22 Ellios

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 21:17

F1 marshal safety has been appalling for years and yet nothing has ever been done about it.

 

Australia 2012: A marshal is seen running blindly along a corner picking up debris and then strolls along the exit of the corner as half a dozen F1 cars pass him at full speed. 

 

 

Yeah this one gets your attention! ( if you view this directly from youtube it's available in 4K full screen )

 

 

If the FIA*/FOM/CVC really want to bring the full 'TV Show' to the masses with some transparency, how about a modern day retelling of 'A Sunday in Hell (1977)' or Formula 1 equivalent style documentary on what is involved to run an F1 race weekend from the perspective of marshals, race control and drivers

 

 

 

*I know, in light of the awful Jules Bianchi accident they are more likely to close ranks


Edited by Ellios, 07 October 2014 - 21:40.


#23 Alfisti

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:46

I suggest some of you get your facts right before deciding 'marshals are totally out of control', running about willy-nilly on the track/gravel beds.
Of the three marshal deaths in F1 mentioned, in two cases the marshals where behind the barriers/debris fencing and the third occurred in the pit lane whilst recovering a car to the pits after the race was over.

You're plain wrong here.I was not just referring to the deaths but to other instances where i shook my head at the way the marshals were all over the track. Here's one example http://forums.autosp...11#entry5787787



#24 Ev0d3vil

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:01

I touched on this re. the Bianchi discussion. Marshall safety is terrible, they are completely and utterly out of control. Suitl a few races back, the montreal death, bianchi's crash, there was also another race this time last year (forgot which one) where i was apoplectic at what i was seeing. They were just roaming the track with cars FLYING past.

 

It's a matter of time. 

 

Valencia 2012?



#25 Alfisti

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:09

yep. Can't find video though. 



#26 Ev0d3vil

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:23

yep. Can't find video though. 

 

NmKFFSnl.jpg

 

Screen cap.



#27 Alfisti

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:26

Thanks, doesn't show how fast they were going which is what caught my attention at the time. Sutil's car a few races back was INSANE and I also recall a race in Asia last year, be damned if I know where but it was asia, Marshals on track and cars WHIZZING right past them. 



#28 NocturnalTendencies

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 04:36

Yellow flag = Safety car.

 

Like it or not, it's the safest best.



#29 ExFlagMan

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 07:12

No, the cars hadn't all been collected by the safety car before the marshals ran out, that's why they were still coming around that corner at speed.

Which shows the deficiency in the SC car system - the cars coming round at speed where running under the delta system to catch up. This would have also been the situation in Sundays incident, so all those claiming the SC would have prevented Bianchi's crash probably need to reconsider their claim.

The problem with the SC is that there is this at least a 1 lap window after the SC car is first deployed where cars are in catch-up mode, as would have been the case in Canada even if they had deployed the SC as soon as Sutil went off. Many posters in this and the Bianchi crash thread are suggesting nothing/nobody should go trackside until the race is 'neutralised' are being deluded. I am not sure I want to watch a race series in which a badly injured driver or one trapped in a burning car has to wait 2-3 minutes before anyone attends - I hoped we had seen the last of that in 1973 with Roger Williamson's death.

#30 redreni

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 08:25

Which shows the deficiency in the SC car system - the cars coming round at speed where running under the delta system to catch up. This would have also been the situation in Sundays incident, so all those claiming the SC would have prevented Bianchi's crash probably need to reconsider their claim.The problem with the SC is that there is this at least a 1 lap window after the SC car is first deployed where cars are in catch-up mode, as would have been the case in Canada even if they had deployed the SC as soon as Sutil went off. Many posters in this and the Bianchi crash thread are suggesting nothing/nobody should go trackside until the race is 'neutralised' are being deluded. I am not sure I want to watch a race series in which a badly injured driver or one trapped in a burning car has to wait 2-3 minutes before anyone attends - I hoped we had seen the last of that in 1973 with Roger Williamson's death.


I take your point that marshals need to make sure the driver is okay straight away. But in most cases it only takes one or two people to do that. What they needn't necessarily do straight away is commit a dozen men and a tractor crane to a highly exposed trackside area in heavy rain at dusk before the pack has formed up. It would be perfectly possible for Race Control to direct that the driver and marshals retreat and remain behind the barriers until the SC has collected the field.

Even when cars are running under the deltas, though, under the current enforcement regime they're still likely to be travelling slower than they would if it was just DWYs, even though by the letter of the law the DWY should slow them down just as much if not more as they approach the incident scene. A SC procedure wouldn't have made everything totally safe, and wouldn't have been as good as a local slow zone which could have been implemented straight away if the rules allowed for it, but it would certainly have reduced the risk by reducing the speed of the field and encouraging people to pit, thereby reducing the number of cars coming past the incident during the time taken to recover the car. If the SC had been deployed promptly for the Sutil crash that tractor crane would have been out of harm's way before Bianchi came around again.

#31 ExFlagMan

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 08:33

Not sure encouraging people to pit under SC is such a great idea - it just means that those that have pitted are now running faster (under the delta) and as individual cars rather than in a pack controlled by the SC drivers speed.

#32 Spillage

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 09:02

I take your point that marshals need to make sure the driver is okay straight away. But in most cases it only takes one or two people to do that.


Perhaps even that wouldn't be necessary. In Indy car, race control radio directly to the drivers - maybe they could do that in F1 to check if the driver is okay? Alternatively, perhaps the driver could give the marshals a thumbs-up if he's alright - I remember Hakkinen doing this to the medical car after a startline crash in Spa once, and so the medical car did not stop and the incident was covered by a safety car, rather than the red flag I assume there'd have been if he was injured.

Edited by Spillage, 08 October 2014 - 09:06.


#33 ExFlagMan

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 09:41

There is a whole raft of reasons why at least one marshal goes to a crashed car, not just the obvious one of checking the driver is OK.

Check driver OK - they might appear OK in a radio message, but that is not always the case when they get out of the car.
Ensure the electric cut-out is activated.
Check driver can get out of the car.
Check driver replaces the steering wheel.
Check for fire.
Direct driver to a safe place - lost count of the no of drivers I have seen who decide to cross the track after a shunt.
Now with ERS - ensure the ERS is in a safe state.

OK some of these might be ok to delay for 3-4 minutes until SC car has rounded up the field, but I am not sure all of them can be delayed.

A local driver I knew quite well was racing at a continental track some years ago, pulled the car off on a straight and just sat there in the car. Marshals delayed going to him as it was 'just a pull-off'. When they did go to check on him after about 5 mins they found he was unconscious, turned out he had suffered a cardiac event. He died a few weeks later, no-one knows if a faster intervention could have saved his life but it might have.

#34 HP

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:10

As long as the marshals know what they are supposed to do it's fine. However IMO recovery trucks should only be called in, if it can be ensured that drivers slow down. So that means some automatic system I guess. Ambulance and fire truck obviously need to get out as fast as they can.

 

There was a video of the Bianchi aftermath, and the actual crash, which should be examined carefully by the experts. I have a catalogue of questions regarding several things that happened there.

 

However I think the biggest issue are the driver not being forced to slow down. If they can't do it by themselves, then race control must do it for the drivers somehow.


Edited by HP, 08 October 2014 - 10:12.


#35 JeePee

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:23

How about handing out race bans for every driver that has some sort of wheelspin, lock up, oversteer, a little snap, whatever, in a waved yellow zone?

 

Sutil said a lot of other cars were twitching through Dunlop after he and Bianchi had crashed. Many were not in full control of their cars. And that was under DWY. Totally unacceptable.

 

In that video of Canada 2011 that Sauber would have got away clean. Yes he went very quick, but he had his car under control and was able to make a full stop before any debris or marshal. That Lotus? It's a freaking Safety Car situation and he's surprised there are marshals on track. Have fun sitting at home next race.


Edited by JeePee, 08 October 2014 - 10:47.


#36 HP

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:37

They were twitching, because of track conditions and speed. Thing is: how would race control know where the safe speed limit is for current conditions? I hope Sutil as a first hand witness learned his lesson, because that is usually the best way to learn, as shocking as it was, but the rest of them?

 

What about before FIA hand out a super driver license to anyone they must have be marshal for a number of races (including the training of course), to see things from another, non-competetive perspective? And with each failure to slow down, they will be required to go through the training again and attend a race as a marshal.

 

EDIT; To clarify they should be required to attend a race from another series that doesn't interfere with the F1 schedule. A race ban IMO is the wrong way to go, as from my perspective I'd like to help drivers to understand and appreciate the work others are doing for them.


Edited by HP, 08 October 2014 - 10:40.


#37 Kraken

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:38

How about handing out race bans for every driver that has some sort of wheelspin, lock up, oversteer, a little snap, whatever, in a waved yellow zone?

 

Sutil said a lot of other cars were twitching through Dunlop after he and Bianchi had crashed. Many where not in full control of their cars. And that was under DWY. Totally unacceptable.

 

In that video of Canada 2011 that Sauber would have got away clean. Yes he went very quick, but he had his car under control and was able to make a full stop before any debris or marshal. That Lotus? It's a freaking Safety Car situation and he's surprised there are marshals on track. Have fun sitting at home next race.

Well said. My sentiments exactly.



#38 JeePee

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:46

They were twitching, because of track conditions and speed. 

I don't care what the reason was. Point is: Twitching > Not in full control > You should have gone slower > Race ban.
That means in some situations (a yellow flag because a car came to a halt halfway down a straight) drivers don't even have to lift. It's a straight, go flat out. But rain, puddles, maybe rivers, in a corner, on worn intermediates and a waved yellow? SLOW THE F DOWN. 
 

Thing is: how would race control know where the safe speed limit is for current conditions? 

Race control doesn't have to know. The drivers should. And that depends on car, tyre life, talent, freaking everything. But a driver should know. And if he doesn't and he makes a wrong judgement (ie: didn't slow down enough): Race ban. FIA will only know when that twich or lock up has already happened, and maybe that is too late. But drivers WILL slow down more than they do now. Especially in tricky conditions.


Edited by JeePee, 08 October 2014 - 10:50.


#39 ExFlagMan

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:47

They were twitching, because of track conditions and speed. Thing is: how would race control know where the safe speed limit is for current conditions? I hope Sutil as a first hand witness learned his lesson, because that is usually the best way to learn, as shocking as it was, but the rest of them?
 
What about before FIA hand out a super driver license to anyone they must have be marshal for a number of races (including the training of course), to see things from another, non-competetive perspective? And with each failure to slow down, they will be required to go through the training again and attend a race as a marshal.
 
EDIT; To clarify they should be required to attend a race from another series that doesn't interfere with the F1 schedule. A race ban IMO is the wrong way to go, as from my perspective I'd like to help drivers to understand and appreciate the work others are doing for them.

The HSCC in the UK were doing this to drivers who disregarded yellows about 10-15 years ago. I was on several occasions given the task of 'educating' them in flag rules. Surprisingly they even enjoyed themselves, one even asked if he could come back and do it again the next day. However these where club drivers without the big egos and salaries of F1 drivers so I am not sure they would feel the same way about such a punishment.

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#40 HP

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 11:00

 

I don't care what the reason was. Point is: Twitching > Not in full control > You should have gone slower > Race ban.
That means in some situations (a yellow flag because a car came to a halt halfway down a straight) drivers don't even have to lift. It's a straight, go flat out. But rain, puddles, maybe rivers, in a corner, on worn intermediates and a waved yellow? SLOW THE F DOWN. 
 
 

Race control doesn't have to know. The drivers should. And that depends on car, tyre life, talent, freaking everything. But a driver should know. And if he doesn't and he makes a wrong judgement (ie: didn't slow down enough): Race ban. FIA will only know when that twich or lock up has already happened, and maybe that is too late. But drivers WILL slow down more than they do now. Especially in tricky conditions.

 

I do think it would alienate a lot of people, not just drivers from the sport.

 

And this year, especially the Ferrari cut out the engine, leading to twitches and whatever. Should race control be required to deal with that too? Having for every twitch an interview with a driver and his team, read out telemetry, etc. Because they have to ensure that every ban is justified. Never mind appeals, etc. Lots of wasted time IMO.. The only thing the race control won't have to do is to keep things civil on this board.

 

Let's not take the enjoyment factor out of F1 with draconic, and IMO unenforcable rules.


Edited by HP, 08 October 2014 - 11:01.


#41 JeePee

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 11:38

And this year, especially the Ferrari cut out the engine, leading to twitches and whatever. Should race control be required to deal with that too? Having for every twitch an interview with a driver and his team, read out telemetry, etc. Because they have to ensure that every ban is justified. Never mind appeals, etc. Lots of wasted time IMO.. The only thing the race control won't have to do is to keep things civil on this board.

Like the Ferrari can't ease off the throttle without losing contol? That's just a lame excuse. And yes it is car dependent. If your Caterham is harder to keep straight than a Mercedes, you have to ease of a bit more than Lewis and Nico do.
And there is no need to dive deep into the telemetry. Onboard footage will tell enough.
 
 

Let's not take the enjoyment factor out of F1 with draconic, and IMO unenforcable rules.

The only thing that changes, is drivers will drive slower in yellow zones. It's not like there will be 10 race bans per race... Maybe not even one in the whole season if drivers change their attitude and respect for a yellow flag a bit.

You make it sound like drivers can't do anything about this. That it's sad they get penalised when putting a marshal's life at risk...



#42 johnmhinds

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 11:50

Which shows the deficiency in the SC car system - the cars coming round at speed where running under the delta system to catch up. This would have also been the situation in Sundays incident, so all those claiming the SC would have prevented Bianchi's crash probably need to reconsider their claim.

The problem with the SC is that there is this at least a 1 lap window after the SC car is first deployed where cars are in catch-up mode, as would have been the case in Canada even if they had deployed the SC as soon as Sutil went off. Many posters in this and the Bianchi crash thread are suggesting nothing/nobody should go trackside until the race is 'neutralised' are being deluded. I am not sure I want to watch a race series in which a badly injured driver or one trapped in a burning car has to wait 2-3 minutes before anyone attends - I hoped we had seen the last of that in 1973 with Roger Williamson's death.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that no marshals should go to check on a crashed driver to see if he is ok.

But they shouldn't be used like they are in the above videos to run out and collect debris as cars are still travelling around at full speed, or even at the delta speeds, debris on the track is never a good reason to risk marshals lives like that.

And there has never been any need for the cranes to rush out and collect crashed cars asap.

And drivers need to respect the yellow flags far more, we can see in the video above from Australia 2012 that they completely ignored the yellow flags and put that marshal at huge risk by doing so.

Edited by johnmhinds, 08 October 2014 - 11:52.


#43 ExFlagMan

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 16:08

If you wanted local slow zones at a club race all you'd need is the boards and a cheap speed gun for each Observer. And make the Observers judges of fact. If there's a slow zone the drivers have to ensure they're not clocked speeding and reported to the Clerk of the Course.

We already do have them, they are denoted by yellow and green flags. The only difference is that most club racers realise why they are being used, and those that do not very quickly get to see the error of their ways with a trip to the COC and the Stewards if they try to argue the case. Most clerks I have known have their own 'little black book', so you might get away with it once but your number is certainly marked.

#44 TopDog85

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 16:37

F1 marshal safety has been appalling for years and yet nothing has ever been done about it.

Australia 2012: A marshal is seen running blindly along a corner picking up debris and then strolls along the exit of the corner as half a dozen F1 cars pass him at full speed.
https://www.youtube....h?v=K_Ued2n2zPQ

Abu Dhabi 2012: Half a dozen marshals are sent out at the end of of a straight to pick up debris, no yellow flags are shown and a Lotus arrives while marshals are still running through the run off area.
https://www.youtube....h?v=tDst6ut5dOw

Canada 2011: These marshals decide to run clean across the track into the blind spot and one falls over in the process almost getting hit by 2 cars.
https://www.youtube....h?v=6URo_2XMKHE


That is shocking!

#45 ExFlagMan

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 20:05

A few comments from someone with a few years experience of marshalling.

The first example - yes he goes out and picks up debris - he does this in a period where there are no cars passing, presumably as the experienced post chief knows where the gaps in the traffic are. It's called race reading, one of the fundamental skills of marshalling.

The second example - How do you know no yellow flags are being displayed - the flag points would have been well before the corner, the camera only concentrates on the actual corner.

The third example - as has been explained before, happened under the SC, the situation that many people claim as being the only safe solution.

OK - I can understand some people getting concerned, but in each case the is a reasonable explanation.

#46 johnmhinds

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 20:37

The first example he is sent out onto the track under a single yellow flag when it should be a double yellow, and he is still on the grass verge as the cars pass within 6ft of him. The drivers are completely ignoring the yellow flag and should all have been fined for it.

 

The second there should be a double yellow flag on the marshal post on the inside of the chicane and more further around the chicane as we can see another marshal running along that side of the track for some reason. And the marshals shouldn't be running the long way through the run off area to pick up the debris in the first place, there should be marshals on the inside of the corner who would have less distance to travel and wouldn't be left in the firing line of the corner as they run back.

 

And the third is the most egregious, it shows two marshals that run clear over the track to the blind spot for no reason, one of these isn't in any safety gear, another marshal dressed all in black falls over onto the track, twice. Then the first two marshals realising their screwup run/skip back over the track kicking debris right before yet another car comes around the corner. No debris was cleared in all of this mayhem, they were just running about like chickens with no plan of how they were going to clear the track safely.

 

I'm not just being critical of those marshals though as they were all left in really shitty positions by what race control asked them to do, everyone involved in the sport has some serious questions to answer when marshals are left in the firing line like that. And it can't just be swept under the cover as if some risks are ok.


Edited by johnmhinds, 08 October 2014 - 20:40.


#47 Tsarwash

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 20:54

A few comments from someone with a few years experience of marshalling.

The first example - yes he goes out and picks up debris - he does this in a period where there are no cars passing, presumably as the experienced post chief knows where the gaps in the traffic are. It's called race reading, one of the fundamental skills of marshalling.

The second example - How do you know no yellow flags are being displayed - the flag points would have been well before the corner, the camera only concentrates on the actual corner.

The third example - as has been explained before, happened under the SC, the situation that many people claim as being the only safe solution.

OK - I can understand some people getting concerned, but in each case the is a reasonable explanation.

The third example I see as race control or marshal error. As the safety car had been called, nobody need have been on track until all the cars had bunched up behind safety car and it had gone past, creating a minute or more safe gap to work in. I don't think we've ever had a safety car for less than five laps, have we ?



#48 ExFlagMan

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 21:22

The first example he is sent out onto the track under a single yellow flag when it should be a double yellow, and he is still on the grass verge as the cars pass within 6ft of him. The drivers are completely ignoring the yellow flag and should all have been fined for it.
 
The second there should be a double yellow flag on the marshal post on the inside of the chicane and more further around the chicane as we can see another marshal running along that side of the track for some reason. And the marshals shouldn't be running the long way through the run off area to pick up the debris in the first place, there should be marshals on the inside of the corner who would have less distance to travel and wouldn't be left in the firing line of the corner as they run back.
 
And the third is the most egregious, it shows two marshals that run clear over the track to the blind spot for no reason, one of these isn't in any safety gear, another marshal dressed all in black falls over onto the track, twice. Then the first two marshals realising their screwup run/skip back over the track kicking debris right before yet another car comes around the corner. No debris was cleared in all of this mayhem, they were just running about like chickens with no plan of how they were going to clear the track safely.
 
I'm not just being critical of those marshals though as they were all left in really shitty positions by what race control asked them to do, everyone involved in the sport has some serious questions to answer when marshals are left in the firing line like that. And it can't just be swept under the cover as if some risks are ok.

There is no flag point at either of those locations so no flags would be shown - Flag points are at specific points on the track and cover defined zones.
We have (hopefully) moved on from the days where every man and his dog ran out onto the track with a yellow flag and basically just got in the way of clearing up the incident without adding anything to the marshal safety.

To me the second example shows a pretty good example of how you can clear up debris without sending out the SC. The marshals go out in what is obviously a quite big gap in the traffic, they do the job and have all moved away from the actual race-track before the car arrives. Of course this sort of action does depend on the co-operation of the drivers by keeping their side of the bargain and backing off in a safe manner. Unfortunately of the past few years this drivers have reneged on their side of the bargain and no long back off.

The third example shows just how the SC system has actually decreased the safety of the marshals, drivers form up behind the SC but those not in the train are allowed to drive faster to catch up, and this is compounded by allowing them to pit for tyres, thus adding to the catch-up problem. All this loses the defined pattern of the cars on the race track and actually makes it harder to decide when is the optimum point to go out and clear the debris.

#49 Ellios

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 21:23

A few comments from someone with a few years experience of marshalling.

The first example - yes he goes out and picks up debris - he does this in a period where there are no cars passing, presumably as the experienced post chief knows where the gaps in the traffic are. It's called race reading, one of the fundamental skills of marshalling.

OK - I can understand some people getting concerned, but in each case the is a reasonable explanation.

 

 

Certainly the person videoing (or close by) thinks it's dodgy, as he says 'oh jesus!' x 2 - the fella in the white jump suit takes a step back as the first car approaches and he's behind the barrier! As the 'brave' marshal legs it down the race track to find an exit the first three cars are 'relatively' far enough away, but the fourth car is pretty damn close...

 

My guess is the marshal got the buzz of his life picking up the debris and/or probably needed new underpants! It's a thrill no doubt

 

As you state you have a few years experience and believe it's reasonable action I'll bow to your better judgement. But if that's an example of professional organised marshalling.. you got to hope it can be improved upon

 

will add the youtube quote as it may not be seen viewed from within this forum. Also I can't be sure of its authenticity:

 

 

Before the podium ceremony: Vettel: Herbie, did you see? Tell it to Charlie because I might forget it the next race, but there was a yellow flag in turn 5 and there was a marshall running on the outside of the track. Button: Yes, he was inside the circuit. Vettel: It was just single waved yellow. Button: He just stood there. Vettel: No, he was running.

 


Edited by Ellios, 08 October 2014 - 21:28.


#50 johnmhinds

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 21:55

The third example shows just how the SC system has actually decreased the safety of the marshals, drivers form up behind the SC but those not in the train are allowed to drive faster to catch up, and this is compounded by allowing them to pit for tyres, thus adding to the catch-up problem. All this loses the defined pattern of the cars on the race track and actually makes it harder to decide when is the optimum point to go out and clear the debris.



I'm sorry I can't agree with that, it wasn't the safety car period itself that put the marshals at risk, it was race control giving the marshals the all clear to start removing the debris too early, before all the cars have been collected by the safety car after the pit stops. And the marshals made the situation worse by seemingly being clueless as to how the debris clearing had to be done safely, i'm sure just running out and randomly kicking car parts about without wearing any safety gear isn't in the training.

No marshal should ever be sent onto on the track like that unless the cars are lined up behind the safety car (and have finished whatever pitstops they have to do) the race can wait if it keeps the marshals safe.

Edited by johnmhinds, 08 October 2014 - 22:48.