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Marshal Safety


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#51 ExFlagMan

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 08:31

And the marshals made the situation worse by seemingly being clueless as to how the debris clearing had to be done safely, i'm sure just running out and randomly kicking car parts about without wearing any safety gear isn't in the training.

No marshal should ever be sent onto on the track like that unless the cars are lined up behind the safety car (and have finished whatever pitstops they have to do) the race can wait if it keeps the marshals safe.

I bow down to your obviously greater knowledge as to how to remove debris. I assume you have been to many marshals training days as you seem so confident as to how things should be done. If that is true then I assume you were the one at the back half asleep (there is always one in any training seminar) during the section about handling debris.

In most cases kicking debris off the racing line is the recommended way to deal with it. It is a bloody sight quicker (and hence safer) than having to bend over and pick the bits up, but the main reason for kicking the bits is that you have no idea how hot those bits might be until you pick them up and they start to burn through your gloves, by which time it is too late and rather than helping the situation you now become part of the problem.

Removing the debris, especially carbon fibre bits, is best done whilst those bits are relatively big, waiting till they have been run over and broken in multiple small pieces tends to prolong the length of the clean up process and I'm pretty sure that most marshals would agree that the shorter the time you are out there the better.

As for your last paragraph, adhering to that rule would result in an indefinite SC period, given that any car in the train can enter the pits, and hence be in catch-up mode at any time. Not sure how that would go down with most viewers - many posters on here tend to get somewhat annoyed every time the SC car comes out.

I will now retire from the discussion as I do not have a suitable tin-hat for protection from the flak that I assume will be fired my way.



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#52 johnmhinds

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 09:05

As far as I remember the debris in that incident was a front wing. So there isn't much danger of hot debris.

But saying the best way to clear "hot" debris is to kick it is a preposterous thing to say anyway. What happens if it bounces up and hits another marshal?

If the debris is too hot to handle then you can use a broom to push it off the track, not your feet as you skip back and forwards kicking about at stuff.....

#53 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 09:53

I suggest some of you get your facts right before deciding 'marshals are totally out of control', running about willy-nilly on the track/gravel beds.
Of the three marshal deaths in F1 mentioned, in two cases the marshals where behind the barriers/debris fencing and the third occurred in the pit lane whilst recovering a car to the pits after the race was over.
The ones out of control are the F1 drivers who have somehow managed to persuade the FIA that they can ignore the basic flag rules designed to protect both themselves and the marshals by just displaying a token/minimal throttle lift in a yellow flag zone.
We only had the SC scenario introduced because drivers where ignoring the rules and rather than do anything that might upset the drivers the FIA decided a SC was the answer.
As usual with all such compromise solutions the result is now that the drivers ignore yellows even more as 'The yellows cannot be for anything really serious as or they would have brought out the SC'.

Lower adherence to yellow flag rules in the minor formulae is a direct result of young drivers emulating what the 'heroes' seem able to get away with.

On the plus side some of these formula do much better job on penalising drivers for yellow flag infringements than F1 has ever done - several penalties have been handed out this year in GP2 and GP3 - when was the last time a F1 driver got more than a slapped wrist for infringements.

Agreed. Last weekend was , again, no observing the basic rules. Waved double yellows mean extreme danger, prepare to stop. In hero driver speak that means go fast as possible to catch the field. A safety car would have made no difference as they do exactly the same thing trying to catch it!

In my opinion it was safe to do what they did, IF the rules were obeyed.  With the footage you can hear the pace of the cars in the background after Bianchi crashed. The Cof C really should have charged the majority of the field [with the other flaggies as judge of fact] with driving dangerously under double yellows. Sutil seemingly crashed because of the extra rain making probably worn inters unsuitable. annoying but purely a racing incident. However Bianchi got where he did it was defenitly way too fast.

Those poor marshalls must be traumatised from their narrow escape. And the crowd too did not get their moneys worth with the subsequent inevitable red flag.

Though it is obvious the race with the weather should have started earlier. But bloody TV dictates every thing. Even if it was no drier it would have had better light. Though the night races really are more fundamentally dangerous at that speed. Do a twilight clubbie and the open wheelers are loaded by dark. The 'closed' cars with lights get to play in the dark. Something very exciting, scarey and dangerous. And as an old fart now I cannot see well enough to drive that fast. I can see the track, flag points etc but not oil, broken small pieces of cars etc. Even judging small distances is very hard. as is glare too ofcourse. And most with corrected vision will have the same drama.

Oh and yes,, I have won night races in the distant past. could never do that now,,, maybe in the daylight!



#54 santori

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 10:06

Agreed. Last weekend was , again, no observing the basic rules. Waved double yellows mean extreme danger, prepare to stop. In hero driver speak that means go fast as possible to catch the field. A safety car would have made no difference as they do exactly the same thing trying to catch it!

In my opinion it was safe to do what they did, IF the rules were obeyed.  With the footage you can hear the pace of the cars in the background after Bianchi crashed. The Cof C really should have charged the majority of the field [with the other flaggies as judge of fact] with driving dangerously under double yellows.

 

Part of the problem may have been that the rules as they're currently implemented were obeyed.

 

It's all very well having it written down somewhere that waved double yellows mean 'extreme danger; prepare to stop' but when the drivers are told by race control that they only need to back off slightly, then that (combined with the requirement to go as quickly as possible for their teams) means that they can't afford to back off any more than slightly. It's not necessarily that the drivers are reckless.


Edited by santori, 09 October 2014 - 10:07.


#55 ANF

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 11:13

As has been mentioned by a lot of commentators since the weekend, Martin Brundle had almost the identical accident in 1994 as Jules had on Sunday, except he missed the tractor crane by inches and hit a marshal and broke his leg. That could so easily have been the outcome again (or worse) as the marshals were around the crane at the time. It appears we've learned nothing in 20 years since that happened. It was just down to pure luck (both bad and good) that Jules hit the crane and not any of the marshals.

I'd just like to comment on this, because I have seen it reported in the media as well.

Brundle's accident was frightening and dangerous, but the recovery vehicle was not a tractor crane. In addition to Morbidelli's car, there were two unprotected vehicles in front of the barrier: one rescue vehicle ready to attend to Morbidelli, and one fairly small recovery vehicle towing the stricken Footwork.

I don't think Brundle would have escaped injury had he crashed into one of them. It is worth pointing out, however, that the recovery vehicles used in F1 have become considerably bigger, heavier and higher since 1994.

(You can watch the accident here.)



#56 Spillage

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 11:50

With regards to that marshal in Australia, a YouTube commenter on the video says thus:

 

 

 

Before the podium ceremony: Vettel: Herbie, did you see? Tell it to Charlie because I might forget it the next race, but there was a yellow flag in turn 5 and there was a marshall running on the outside of the track. Button: Yes, he was inside the circuit. Vettel: It was just single waved yellow. Button: He just stood there. Vettel: No, he was running.

Assuming this is the case (perhaps another user can confirm it was) it seems the drivers were concerned as well, and that in that instance the yellow flag procedure was not followed correctly. So fault on both sides in this case - the drivers clearly virtually ignore the yellow flag, but they were informed as they should have been that there were marshals on the circuit.



#57 Kraken

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 12:46

Part of the problem may have been that the rules as they're currently implemented were obeyed.

 

It's all very well having it written down somewhere that waved double yellows mean 'extreme danger; prepare to stop' but when the drivers are told by race control that they only need to back off slightly, then that (combined with the requirement to go as quickly as possible for their teams) means that they can't afford to back off any more than slightly. It's not necessarily that the drivers are reckless.

The back of slightly is for a single yellow, not for double yellow or at least hasn't been in any race briefing I've attended.



#58 demet06

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 17:06

I'd just like to comment on this, because I have seen it reported in the media as well.

Brundle's accident was frightening and dangerous, but the recovery vehicle was not a tractor crane. In addition to Morbidelli's car, there were two unprotected vehicles in front of the barrier: one rescue vehicle ready to attend to Morbidelli, and one fairly small recovery vehicle towing the stricken Footwork.

I don't think Brundle would have escaped injury had he crashed into one of them. It is worth pointing out, however, that the recovery vehicles used in F1 have become considerably bigger, heavier and higher since 1994.

(You can watch the accident here.)

 

 

I stand corrected. It still wouldn't have been good if he'd hit it though and you're right about the recovery vehicles being considerably larger, so something needs to be done to stop this sort of thing happening again.

I found myself agreeing with Gary Anderson, for suggesting the use of an adaptation of the pitlane speed limiter system. Part of the problem is that the guys are all racers, so if you have double waved yellows, some of them are automatically wondering how much time they're losing. Instinct tells them to go as fast as possible even though they're "lifting". If the button can be configured to operate on track at a higher speed than the pitlane limit. Then the drivers press the button in the double yellow zone and release when they get the green flag. Everyone theoretically goes through the double yellow zone at the same speed and therefore lose no time. The system would be fair to all and should enable marshals and car recovery vehicles to operate more safely. You probably can't make it foolproof but you may be able to take it further and make it operate automatically and from race control.



#59 Kalmake

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 17:46

Agreed. Last weekend was , again, no observing the basic rules. Waved double yellows mean extreme danger, prepare to stop. In hero driver speak that means go fast as possible to catch the field. A safety car would have made no difference as they do exactly the same thing trying to catch it!

Under SC, before catching the SC, they are driving to sector deltas, which are much slower than racing pace. So they can slow down in a yellow zone without losing time overall. The deltas were a big improvement in marshal safety under SC.



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#60 redreni

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 18:16

Under SC, before catching the SC, they are driving to sector deltas, which are much slower than racing pace. So they can slow down in a yellow zone without losing time overall. The deltas were a big improvement in marshal safety under SC.


But the timing loops are typically only a couple of hundred metres long so it doesn't take long to get through each one. Assuming you want to stay just on the minimum delta time for each mini sector there's limited scope for slowing down in certain corners and speeding up in others.

Which leads me on to the flag signals, because when there is a full course caution, unless I'm mistaken every flag post displays a single waved yellow flag and an SC board? Does that also apply to the flag post immediately before the incident, or do they still show a double-waved yellow? I just think it might be worth flagging up to the drivers where the incident is if you want them to go slower than the deltas as they pass?

#61 Kalmake

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 18:35

Delta times are on the 3 main sectors that we all see in the broadcast.



#62 ANF

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 18:45

I just saw this interesting article in Autocourse, written by Jackie Stewart in 1968, about safety improvements on grand prix circuits. The text is tiny but readable. Spread 1 Spread 2

If you can't open the full-size images, here's Spread 1 Spread 2



#63 Tsarwash

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 19:07

Regarding safety cars, is there any reason why we need to allow drivers to pit during a safety car these days ? If you didn't allow pitting and you didn't let drivers unlap themselves, then safety car periods would be a lot shorter.



#64 johnmhinds

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 19:21

Regarding safety cars, is there any reason why we need to allow drivers to pit during a safety car these days ? If you didn't allow pitting and you didn't let drivers unlap themselves, then safety car periods would be a lot shorter.

 

The safety car could be out there due to an accident which caused punctures/wing damage or due to changing weather conditions.

 

If other drivers choose to use the safety car period for tactical reasons then that's just part of the game I guess.



#65 Ellios

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 19:57

With regards to that marshal in Australia, a YouTube commenter on the video says thus:

 

Before the podium ceremony: Vettel: Herbie, did you see? Tell it to Charlie because I might forget it the next race, but there was a yellow flag in turn 5 and there was a marshall running on the outside of the track. Button: Yes, he was inside the circuit. Vettel: It was just single waved yellow. Button: He just stood there. Vettel: No, he was running.

 

Assuming this is the case (perhaps another user can confirm it was) it seems the drivers were concerned as well, and that in that instance the yellow flag procedure was not followed correctly. So fault on both sides in this case - the drivers clearly virtually ignore the yellow flag, but they were informed as they should have been that there were marshals on the circuit.

 

That quote from Youtube is word for word what was said, Vettel was quite animated about it

 

Vet.png



#66 alexocfp

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 04:34

I just saw this interesting article in Autocourse, written by Jackie Stewart in 1968, about safety improvements on grand prix circuits. The text is tiny but readable. Spread 1 Spread 2

If you can't open the full-size images, here's Spread 1 Spread 2


If anyone has tablets, the autocourse iPad app has a free download sample with many articles. The one you mention is there too. I read it a few weeks ago. It is surreal reading it today. Imagine, asking for barriers was seen as an excessive request in 68.

Btw the app also offers complete editions for download too.

#67 ExFlagMan

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:07

The safety car could be out there due to an accident which caused punctures/wing damage or due to changing weather conditions.
 
If other drivers choose to use the safety car period for tactical reasons then that's just part of the game I guess.

Easy solution, Revert to an early rule for SC - just close the pit road exit except for a brief period after the SC train passes the pit exit - only allow cars that are queued waiting to go are allowed out. anyone else has to wait for the next time round.
Ok so anyone with a puncture might lose out but their race is already compromised.

#68 ExFlagMan

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:15

Which leads me on to the flag signals, because when there is a full course caution, unless I'm mistaken every flag post displays a single waved yellow flag and an SC board? Does that also apply to the flag post immediately before the incident, or do they still show a double-waved yellow? I just think it might be worth flagging up to the drivers where the incident is if you want them to go slower than the deltas as they pass?

I personally agree it should still be double waved, but do not know what the current official line is.
I seem to recall this was raised as a question at the flag marshals briefing at Silverstone the year they bought out the SC rules - I think it might even have been me, it was always good to put the senior officials on the spot. I think it was going to be referred back - cannot remember if they did ever came back with an answer, but the 'unofficial answer' was 'As usual - use your discretion, if you think it warrants a double waved then just do it - if anyone complains we will discuss it afterwards.'

#69 ExFlagMan

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:22

Part of the problem may have been that the rules as they're currently implemented were obeyed.
 
It's all very well having it written down somewhere that waved double yellows mean 'extreme danger; prepare to stop' but when the drivers are told by race control that they only need to back off slightly, then that (combined with the requirement to go as quickly as possible for their teams) means that they can't afford to back off any more than slightly. It's not necessarily that the drivers are reckless.

I wonder how the new F1 only interpretation of the FIA yellow flag rules came about? Perhaps Charlie woke up one morning last December and though 'what can I get the lads for Christmas, Bernie says I cannot spend any money on chrissy presents as he might need all the cash next year to pay his lawyers - I know, I'll let them ignore the yellow flag rules - they already do anyway, so it will not make any difference if I just declare it OK.