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Who won? Both!... sort of.


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#1 Otaku

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:18

Ok, here's the situation:

 

Last weekend the 9th round of the Argentinean series Super TC 2000 season was held in San Juan and after a really awesome race in which every sort of thing imaginable happened, the 2 leading cars... TIED. 

 

Here's a video with a recap of the race, fast forward to around the 3 minute mark if you just want to see the ending moment:

 

 

So both cars arrived together at the finish line and both got the exact same number on the time sheets, to the milisecond (1/1000s). Now I don't know if this situation has happened before in all history of the sport (I know of qualy tying, even the famous triple tying but never heard of a tied race) but the race directors said they couldn't tie and that some1 had  to win, so after carefully watching the video in slow motion they concluded that Pernía's car (the black/yellow one) crossed the finish line 1st even if the times were equal (due to a different position of the timing transponder on the car). Of course you can imagine the reaction of the other team  :lol:.

 

But things got worse, because around 2 hours after saying that, they actually penalized Pernía for crashing (?) into Marchesi's car (on the White/Blue car) so the latter actually won the race... and the rage and controversy is still on  :stoned:

 

 

A couple of pics:

 

54327774dc277_626x0.jpg

STC2000-San-Juan-Leonel-Pernia-Renault-M

f460x250-135569_152015_15.jpg

image5431e0ce22fa80.27976009.jpg

 

 

So what do you say? Can they actually "tie"? What would happen for example in F1? Do all F1 cars have their sensors at the same place?



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#2 warp

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:31

LOL... Son de madera!

 

I have no idea of what the F1 rules say. In F1 the transponder should be at the same place and probably they would go into look at lead laps or another criteria for untie.

 

I need to catch the TC2000 again. It always has made great racing.



#3 wrcva

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:38

yellow car pushed the blue out at the last turn.  Both cars were outside the track limits so the white car wins, blue is 2nd as the yellow car gets a penalty  :p .  great racing though.  Charlie would probably penalize the F1 cars 10,000 euros if they mount the transponder about 1mm off where it is supposed to be... 



#4 SB

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:44

In such case, IMHO I would give the win to one started further behind from the grid. If both drivers completed at the same time, then it means the one started behind has covered longer distance and should be the "faster" one :p . 



#5 Otaku

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:50

In such case, IMHO I would give the win to one started further behind from the grid. If both drivers completed at the same time, then it means the one started behind has covered longer distance and should be the "faster" one :p . 

 

 

Good point. But the opposite could be said, the one that qualified better had a "better weekend"  :rolleyes:



#6 JTSaika

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:55

"due to a different position of the timing transponder on the car"

 

Wait, what?.... How can that be considered remotely legal? Should they not be placed in the same exact place?...



#7 Otaku

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:58

Wait, what?.... How can that be considered remotely legal? Should they not be placed in the same exact place?...

 

No, as cars are different. Even 10 o 5 cms makes a difference.



#8 JTSaika

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:09

No, as cars are different. Even 10 o 5 cms makes a difference

Hmmmmm...  So essentially one car lost due to it's size alone? This is pretty head bending but i think that's more because you'd never see this sorta thing on F1 or MotoGP. 



#9 Otaku

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:17

Well I remember a couple of years ago in the other most popular series here in Argentina (Turismo Carretera) there was a similar situation in which a car finished like 70 cms ahead of the other, but the winning car had the timing transponder on the trunk, while the car that finished 2nd had the transponder under the hood. Conclusion, the computer said the car that finished 2nd won.  :stoned:  :stoned:  :stoned:

 

 

Edit: here, 47:35

 


Edited by Otaku, 08 October 2014 - 02:22.


#10 JTSaika

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:21

Personally that would annoy the heck out of me.. Guess there's not much they can do though without imposing restrictions like every other timed sport; Motorsport or otherwise. 



#11 turssi

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:33

@otaku: did he get to keep the victory?

#12 f1RacingForever

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:34

Why does someone have to win? When 2 Olympians tie an event with the same time, they award them both the same medal. They don't Just say "well it looks as if competitor A beat you. Sorry about your luck" lol declare them both as winners. Everyone wins!



#13 turssi

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:41

Just the two of them. Not everyone!

#14 Otaku

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:53

@otaku: did he get to keep the victory?

 

In last week's event, the blue/white ended winning. The other car got a penalty and got 2nd place.

 

In the 2005 case, the car that finished behind but did a better time (due to sensor position) won and kept the victory, as wicked as that sounds.


Edited by Otaku, 08 October 2014 - 02:54.


#15 warp

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:12

Any idea of what the actual regulations of F1 say?



#16 Otaku

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:30

45) CLASSIFICATION
45.1 The car placed first will be the one having covered the scheduled distance in the shortest time, 
or, where appropriate, passed the Line in the lead at the end of two hours (or more if the race 
is suspended, see Article 5.3). All cars will be classified taking into account the number of 
complete laps they have covered, and for those which have completed the same number of 
laps, the order in which they crossed the Line.
45.2 Cars having covered less than 90% of the number of laps covered by the winner (rounded 
down to the nearest whole number of laps), will not be classified.
45.3 The official classification will be published after the race. It will be the only valid result subject 
to any amendments which may be made under the Code and these Sporting Regulations.
 
 


#17 warp

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:33

 

45) CLASSIFICATION
45.1 The car placed first will be the one having covered the scheduled distance in the shortest time, 
or, where appropriate, passed the Line in the lead at the end of two hours (or more if the race 
is suspended, see Article 5.3). All cars will be classified taking into account the number of 
complete laps they have covered, and for those which have completed the same number of 
laps, the order in which they crossed the Line.
45.2 Cars having covered less than 90% of the number of laps covered by the winner (rounded 
down to the nearest whole number of laps), will not be classified.
45.3 The official classification will be published after the race. It will be the only valid result subject 
to any amendments which may be made under the Code and these Sporting Regulations.
 
 

 

 

 

Hhhhmmmm... looks like they haven't even considered this as a foreseeable result and in the case it would happen, heads will explode and they will take the most ridiculous route.

Not surprising from the FIA...



#18 alpine

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:25

In such case, IMHO I would give the win to one started further behind from the grid. If both drivers completed at the same time, then it means the one started behind has covered longer distance and should be the "faster" one :p . 

Wasn't this the case in the 1966 edition of the Le Mans 24h race? Only instance I can remember: McLaren/Amon won the staged dead heat against Miles/Hulme on the merit of 20 metres the latter started ahead, thus covering less distance than the eventual winners ...

https://en.wikipedia...ours_of_Le_Mans

This was an endurance race though, so for a sprint there may be other regulations.


Edited by alpine, 08 October 2014 - 06:26.


#19 Lotus53B

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:42

Qualifying Estoril 1997 iirc - 3 cars within 1000th, positions allocated by the order they achieved them

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#20 Collombin

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:47

The 1967 Syracuse Grand Prix was officially a tie between Scarfiotti and Parkes, although I suspect if footage of the finish ever emerged then you might dispute that result.

#21 Peat

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:58

Wait, what?.... How can that be considered remotely legal? Should they not be placed in the same exact place?...

Classic karting trick, tieing the transponder to your ankle. In the event of a photo-finish, Timing and Scoring credits you the position. 

;)



#22 Otaku

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:59

The 1967 Syracuse Grand Prix was officially a tie between Scarfiotti and Parkes, although I suspect if footage of the finish ever emerged then you might dispute that result.

 

:up:  :up:  :up:



#23 MikeV1987

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 08:50

The renault driver was just plain dirty there.



#24 CSquared

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 09:01

Qualifying Estoril 1997 iirc - 3 cars within 1000th, positions allocated by the order they achieved them

Jerez, not Estoril.

#25 scheivlak

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 09:02

Wasn't this the case in the 1966 edition of the Le Mans 24h race? Only instance I can remember: McLaren/Amon won the staged dead heat against Miles/Hulme on the merit of 20 metres the latter started ahead, thus covering less distance than the eventual winners ...

https://en.wikipedia...ours_of_Le_Mans

This was an endurance race though, so for a sprint there may be other regulations.

A story that has been discussed at length at TNF. See  http://forums.autosp...+le +mans +1966 and http://forums.autosp...+le +mans +1966

 

It wasn't a dead heat, as it was clear that the McLaren/Amon car finished ahead.

Grid position at the start had nothing to do with the result. That was a fabricated a story.



#26 byrkus

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 09:02

2011 German GP, 125 cc class:

 

125cc_fotofinish_slideshow_169.jpg

 

 

A dead heat to the finish line between Johann Zarco and Héctor Faubel gave the Spaniard his first win of the season after a photo finish determined a tie between the two, requiring the fastest lap of the two to be the deciding factor in who was the victor.

 

 

In the end, the green bike won only because it drove faster lap in the race. :)

 



#27 Collombin

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 09:37

The first Daytona 500 was famously so close that they revised the result 3 days later.

In the 1992 Indy 500, the transponder in Little Al's winning car was further forward than the one in Scott Goodyear's, making the true gap even closer than the official one. Imagine the fiasco that could have occurred had Goodyear been a few inches ahead at the line.........

#28 Henri Greuter

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 11:38

The first Daytona 500 was famously so close that they revised the result 3 days later.

In the 1992 Indy 500, the transponder in Little Al's winning car was further forward than the one in Scott Goodyear's, making the true gap even closer than the official one. Imagine the fiasco that could have occurred had Goodyear been a few inches ahead at the line.........

 

 

Indy 1992 could indeed have been a major embarrasment!!!!

 

IRL however managed to create themselves an embarassment of the kind that started off this topic. Not with equal Q-times, not even with a dead heat race but with the final, end-of-season championship standings!

Remeber that the first ever IRL season (1996: 3 races:  "Mickyard", Phoenix and Indy) saw Buzz Calkins and Scott Sharp ended up tied in points. Since there had been no tie breaker-rules annouced or declared valid (the 1992 lessons were not learned....) both men were declared co-champions. Not even the fact that Calkins won at least one of the races while Sharp didn't was used as an excuse to break the tie.

Needless to say that lack of announce tie breaker rules came in handy since Sharp drove for A.J. Foyt....

Enough said I guess.....

 

Henri



#29 molpid

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 11:44

Qualifying Estoril 1997 iirc - 3 cars within 1000th, positions allocated by the order they achieved them

 

In qualifying it doesn't matter [sensor position].



#30 Collombin

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 12:16

:up:  :up:  :up:


Great find. So what do we think? Scarfiotti on the line? Must admit it's closer than I had ever assumed!

#31 ChiliFan

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 17:16

In a British Superbike Supercup race at Snetterton in 1995, Jamie Whitham and Steve Hislop crossed the line so close together that the timekeepers couldn't declare a winner and the TV footage was also inconclusive. The organisers declared it a dead heat, added together the points for 1st and 2nd (15 and 12, respectively) and awarded half (13.5) to each rider.



#32 jureF1

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 18:17

F1 sporting regulations:

 

7) DEAD HEAT
7.1
 Prizes and points awarded for all the positions of competitors who tie, will be added together and shared equally.
7.2 If two or more constructors or drivers finish the season with the same number of points, the higher place in the Championship (in either case) shall be awarded to :
a) The holder of the greatest number of first places.
b) If the number of first places is the same, the holder of the greatest number of second places.
c) If the number of second places is the same, the holder of the greatest number of third places and so on until a winner emerges.
d) If this procedure fails to produce a result, the FIA will nominate the winner according to such criteria as it thinks fit.



#33 scheivlak

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 18:23

F1 sporting regulations:

 

7) DEAD HEAT
7.1
 Prizes and points awarded for all the positions of competitors who tie, will be added together and shared equally.
7.2 If two or more constructors or drivers finish the season with the same number of points, the higher place in the Championship (in either case) shall be awarded to :
a) The holder of the greatest number of first places.
b) If the number of first places is the same, the holder of the greatest number of second places.
c) If the number of second places is the same, the holder of the greatest number of third places and so on until a winner emerges.
d) If this procedure fails to produce a result, the FIA will nominate the winner according to such criteria as it thinks fit.

That's about the championship/points situation, not about the races themselves.

 

That said, I always have to chuckle about 7.2.d  :D



#34 Afterburner

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 18:58

F1 sporting regulations:
 
7) DEAD HEAT
7.1
 Prizes and points awarded for all the positions of competitors who tie, will be added together and shared equally.[/size]
7.2 If two or more constructors or drivers finish the season with the same number of points, the higher place in the Championship (in either case) shall be awarded to :[/size]
a) The holder of the greatest number of first places.[/size]
b) If the number of first places is the same, the holder of the greatest number of second places.[/size]
c) If the number of second places is the same, the holder of the greatest number of third places and so on until a winner emerges.[/size]
d) If this procedure fails to produce a result, the FIA will nominate the winner according to such criteria as it thinks fit.[/size]

I suppose in this day and age, that means 'vote for the winner on Facebook'? :rolleyes:

#35 Dolph

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 19:47

Haha... If anyone remembers in the 1954 British GP they awarded a single point to driver who ran the fastest lap. However, on that day 7 drivers tied for fastest lap so they split the point and everyone got 0.14 points. It remains a mystery who got the reminaing 0.02 points :p



#36 CSquared

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 20:20

In qualifying it doesn't matter [sensor position].

Actually, it could, but one has no way of knowing in advance which will be the most advantageous position. By changing where the lap is measured you basically measure more of the current lap and less of the previous, or vice versa. Unless the two consecutive laps are identical, this will give a different time.
 
Pedantic, I know . . . 


#37 Collombin

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 20:28

Haha... If anyone remembers in the 1954 British GP they awarded a single point to driver who ran the fastest lap. However, on that day 7 drivers tied for fastest lap so they split the point and everyone got 0.14 points. It remains a mystery who got the reminaing 0.02 points :p


I thought they actually gave them 1/7 point each, so no remainder.

Anyway, it wasn't all that surprising an occurence considering they timed the drivers with a calendar rather than a stopwatch.

Don't judge the accuracy of my first statement by the accuracy of my second.

#38 RedRabbit

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 20:40

That's about the championship/points situation, not about the races themselves.

 

That said, I always have to chuckle about 7.2.d  :D

 

7.1 looks like it refers to race positions



#39 scheivlak

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 20:50

7.1 looks like it refers to race positions

But not about positions in a race ("dead heat finishes") - where this thread is about.



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#40 jureF1

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 08:23

But not about positions in a race ("dead heat finishes") - where this thread is about.

And on what other tie can you share points? It is for dead head finishes for sure, IMHO.