96 replies to this topic

[MotorsportFerrari]

Lewis won the race despite cruising for the majority of the race. However, Rosberg had to show Mercedes' hands in an attepmt to recover from his silly mistake. This showed how superior Mercedes are. I bet you could fit any driver into the Mercedes' seat, he would win.

 

I really miss days when two-three teams were fighting. I loves McLaren against Ferrari in 2007 and 2008 or before that Renault against Ferrari or Renault against McLaren, but even 2012 was better when McLaren were incredible towards the middle part of the year.

[redraven9]

Put Alonso or Button in that Merc, and we'll see a killer year

[Seanspeed]

Yes, its entirely possible for them to hold their advantage for several more years.

No, it is not the least bit enjoyable.

[hollowstar]

Forever? No!!!

 

A few more years?  Yes!!  I believe Merc will carry some of its advantage into next year, although it would be nice if it gets closer. But I enjoy Formula Merc way more than Formula Red Bull!  

[Kobasmashi]

This is far better than Red Bull or Ferrari dominating with a number 2 driver. I think this season's been great, although I can believe 1987, 88 and 89 were more titanic battles, they're a bit before my time though! As long as the dominant team lets the two cars race and the drivers are closely matched it's still plenty entertaining.

[Farhannn15]

Several years yes but I'd expect the gap to come down until the new regs come into effect whenever they may be, furthermore Hamilton vs Rosberg is better than Vettel vs Webber

[scheivlak]

"Do you enjoy Formula Mercedes?"

 

Troll question -> troll quiz 

[Nonesuch]

Sure Mercedes can keep their advantage going for a while. Not forever obviously, but a few more years is perfectly possible. They're spending a lot of money, have some important people working for them, and have the restrictive regulations working to their benefit. Currently their car is so much better than anything else that it takes a giant blunder for them not to finish 1-2 every time. It's a wonder it took them so long to win the WCC.

 

As for enjoyable - that's different. It's quite impressive to see what Mercedes has accomplished. The regulations that lock-in that advantage are coming back to bite teams like Ferrari and Red Bull, and to be honest, I quite like it. Serves them right for agreeing to such nonsense in the first place.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

History shows that BAR/Honda/Mercedes (early years) were not great at in season development. They've obviously improved but I think the likes of Mclaren and Red Bull do have better facilities than them. Maybe Ferrari too (but with less cohesion).

 

The engine though is stonking. Red Bull still have a better chassis I feel.

 

Next year will be much tighter I think.

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 12 October 2014 - 14:16.

[Massa_f1]

Lewis won the race despite cruising for the majority of the race. However, Rosberg had to show Mercedes' hands in an attepmt to recover from his silly mistake. This showed how superior Mercedes are. I bet you could fit any driver into the Mercedes' seat, he would win.

 

I really miss days when two-three teams were fighting. I loves McLaren against Ferrari in 2007 and 2008 or before that Renault against Ferrari or Renault against McLaren, but even 2012 was better when McLaren were incredible towards the middle part of the year.

 

I think we are stuck with Formula Mercedes, unless Honda have produce something amazing. I would like to see more teams in the mix again, but I can't see it happening in the next few seasons.

 

One the quickest drivers in F1 is now in the quickest car in the field, and not just by half a second. I still think if Mercedes push their car it would sill be over one second clear of the rest.

 

I don't think Nico has what it takes to win a world championship anyway. To be honest I am not looking forward to Lewis Vs Nico part 2 next year, because I don't think it will be anywhere near as close as it has been this year.

 

Nico has done what Webber did in 2010 and kept his team mate honest, and made the most of the unreliability of the car, but then faded in the closing stages of the season. Then never really got close to his team mate again. I think the same thing will happen here with Nico. 

 

Maybe I am underestimating Nico we shall see.

Edited by Massa_f1, 12 October 2014 - 14:21.

[Boxerevo]

We are already without touch with reality, this car is absolutely ridiculous.

 

This car should win all races, Rosberg just wasted 2 victories(Hungary, Spa) for Mercedes and he is still in the hunt for the title.

Edited by Boxerevo, 12 October 2014 - 14:20.

[Timstr11]

History shows that BAR/Honda/Mercedes (early years) were not great at in season development. They've obviously improved but I think the likes of Mclaren and Red Bull do have better facilities than them. Maybe Ferrari too (but with less cohesion).

 

The engine though is stonking. Red Bull still have a better chassis I feel.

 

Wrong.

 

-They have a wind tunnel that is of a later spec than Ferrari, RedBull and McLaren (ever wondered why McLaren is using the Toyota tunnel?).

-Their Driver in the loop simulator is of a later spec than Ferrari, Redbull and Mclaren.

-Their technical leadership team has undergone big changes in he last 3 years.

 

Time does not stand still. Certainly not in F1, So you can drop the BAR-Honda comparisons.

Edited by Timstr11, 12 October 2014 - 14:21.

[tmekt]

Forever? obviously not, and I think even 2015 will be significantly more difficult, Williams will more than likely be even better than this year.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Wrong.

 

-They have a wind tunnel that is of a later spec than Ferrari, RedBull and McLaren (ever wondered why McLaren is using the Toyota tunnel?).

-Their Driver in the loop simulator is of a later spec than Ferrari, Redbull and Mclaren.

-Their technical leadership team has undergone big changes in he last 3 years.

 

Time does not stand still. Certainly not in F1, So you can drop the BAR-Honda comparisons.

 

Well it was only last year they were still wrecking their tyres like in 2011 and 2012. Comparisons have to be made until they demonstrate that they are CONSISTENTLY on top season after season.

 

You are right though, time does not stand still in F1. Maybe these rules suit Mercedes better like the blown diffuser regulation circa 2009-2013 for Red Bull did?

[noikeee]

Wrong.

 

-They have a wind tunnel that is of a later spec than Ferrari, RedBull and McLaren (ever wondered why McLaren is using the Toyota tunnel?).

-Their Driver in the loop simulator is of a later spec than Ferrari, Redbull and Mclaren.

-Their technical leadership team has undergone big changes in he last 3 years.

 

Time does not stand still. Certainly not in F1, So you can drop the BAR-Honda comparisons.

 

I'd add they possibly have more money than any of these competitors, too. After all they're the only major mainstream car manufacturer (ie not dedicated exclusively to supercars) left in F1 as a constructor of both car and engine.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

I think we are stuck with Formula Mercedes, unless Honda have produce something amazing. I would like to see more teams in the mix again, but I can't see it happening in the next few seasons.

 

One the quickest drivers in F1 is now in the quickest car in the field, and not just by half a second. I still think if Mercedes push their car it would sill be over one second clear of the rest.

 

I don't think Nico has what it takes to win a world championship anyway. To be honest I am not looking forward to Lewis Vs Nico part 2 next year, because I don't think it will be anywhere near as close as it has been this year.

 

Nico has done what Webber did in 2010 and kept his team mate honest, and made the most of the unreliability of the car, but then faded in the closing stages of the season. Then never really got close to his team mate again. I think the same thing will happen here with Nico. 

 

Maybe I am underestimating Nico we shall see.

 

Nico is far more consistent than Webber (remember all his terrible starts?)

 

9-4 in victories, one DNF less but still only 17 points down?

 

Consistency does pay off even if he does not have the speed of Lewis over a GP.

[noikeee]

Well it was only last year they were still wrecking their tyres like in 2011 and 2012. Comparisons have to be made until they demonstrate that they are CONSISTENTLY on top season after season.

 

You are right though, time does not stand still in F1. Maybe these rules suit Mercedes better like the blown diffuser regulation circa 2009-2013 for Red Bull did?

 

And even in that time period this was the very team that started with a massive advantage over anyone else. If Brawn weren't broke in 2009 and that situation hadn't forced major changes perhaps they'd have been able to hold on to the advantage, or at least not fall back as much as they did.

[Timstr11]

Well it was only last year they were still wrecking their tyres like in 2011 and 2012. Comparisons have to be made until they demonstrate that they are CONSISTENTLY on top season after season.

 

You are right though, time does not stand still in F1. Maybe these rules suit Mercedes better like the blown diffuser regulation circa 2009-2013 for Red Bull did?

 

I t was very obvious to me they were making big steps.

2nd in the WDC in 2013

 

Rome wasn't built in a day. Ask Redbull, McLaren and Ferrari.

Edited by Timstr11, 12 October 2014 - 14:31.

[Szoelloe]

Yes/Yes

 

Just for the sake of a not too bright OP.

 

You can always go and design a better car, of course. If you don't like it, there is always a good old spec series to watch somewhere else. Shame on Montezemolo, Renault, Red Bull, McLaren et al. for failing to recognize what happened right in front of their noses. Epic fail especially from Montezemolo and the Ferrari management who had an up-close, first-hand experience of how effectively Ross Brawn works, who has done it first thing at Honda too, and now again. The now whinging teams have watched the three-year buildup to what we see - and yes, enjoy - now, like a bunch of cobra-mesmerized rabbits. Mercedes(Brackley) and Brawn have shown the way again. Suck it up, people. Your time will come too. Hope dies last.

Edited by Szoelloe, 12 October 2014 - 14:37.

[Nonesuch]

Nico is far more consistent than Webber (remember all his terrible starts?)

 

9-4 in victories, one DNF less but still only 17 points down?

 

Consistency does pay off even if he does not have the speed of Lewis over a GP.

 

It does now that you'd have to make a really big mess of things to finish lower than 2nd in the Mercedes.

 

Webber did not have that luxury in 2010, when Ferrari and McLaren were more than capable of snatching wins and podiums from Red Bull.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Put Alonso or Button in that Merc, and we'll see a killer year

You serious?

[goingthedistance]

It's even worse than the Red Bull years. 

 

I don't even think either of Rosberg or Hamilton have driven that well this year, the car is just miles better than anything else. A real shame. 

 

Maybe they'll give their customers a bit more equality next year to provide a veneer of competitiveness to allay calls for an engine unfreeze. Williams may be allowed to fight with them a bit more. 

[El_Rápido]

Well, unless the FIA lets the other teams to carry out "illegal" tyre testing and full access to the darn engine there is no hope. This is a long term a$$whooping. Frankly, I do not see anyone making a dent in Mercedes' difference. We've seen it today, in equal circumstances (new track,) they still have a 1+ second gap to everyone else except Williams.

 

I don't think we've entered the realm of diminishing returns yet (development-wise) hence I would say we're easily looking at a 2-3 year Mercedesfest.

Edited by El_Rápido, 12 October 2014 - 14:41.

[MotorsportFerrari]

You serious?

Button is incredible. He also beat Lewis a few times. His race pace is very strong.

[sopa]

So is the current situation like 1992 for Williams? Williams was by far the best in 1992 and carried that advantage into 1993. However, for 1994 the rules changed and Williams lost its advantage. But I guess it would be fair to think had the rules stayed the same Williams would have been the best in 1994 again?

 

So unless rules significantly change, Mercedes is likely to keep an advantage for a few more years.

 

Regarding 2015 but perhaops also 2016 the main interesting thing about competition is what happens behind Mercs. Red Bull, Ferrari and McLaren are undergoing all major changes. Who can beat who? And then based on the success of those changes, we could see from 2016 onwards, which of those teams could start posing serious threat to Mercedes, and perhaps be the next top team once Merc's era inevitably comes to an end... but there is still time to it.

[TomNokoe]

Mark Hughes had this to say on McLaren/Ferrari 2015 onwards.

http://www1.skysport...orm-next-season

The Merc just seems to be getting better and better though

[Con1]

Button is incredible. He also beat Lewis a few times. His race pace is very strong.

We've found Jenson's log in...

[quasi C]

According to Italian media, Merc have found a lot more power over this years' engine for their 2015 unit, to the point where they're telling customer teams to increase the cooling. I'd be amazed if anyone beat them next year. 

[sopa]

By the way, do we have any kind of regulations changes for next year? About power units, aerodynamics, tyres, anything? Usually each season has had something, which at least somewhat causes uncertainty and could lead to changes in pecking order. Even during the Red Bull era there were small shifts around. For 2013 we had tyres, which were so bad that they were replaced after half a year. For 2012 we had unpredictable tyres and ban of EBD. For 2011 we had DRS and Pirelli tyres. For 2010 we had no refueling.

[KavB]

I think they can dominate for a couple more seasons at the very least. I think Rosberg is having a Webber 2010 season though. Consistent but only close to the title because his team mate has suffered reliability issues. I think Hamilton will blow Rosberg away in the next few seasons though just like Vettel did to Webber. Hopefully not though. Really hoping for a close season where we have three or more teams at near equal pace!

[Timstr11]

@sopa

Variable inlet trumpets are allowed as of next year I believe. Will help engine driveablity.

Edited by Timstr11, 12 October 2014 - 14:59.

[OO7]

By the way, do we have any kind of regulations changes for next year? About power units, aerodynamics, tyres, anything? Usually each season has had something, which at least somewhat causes uncertainty and could lead to changes in pecking order. Even during the Red Bull era there were small shifts around. For 2013 we had tyres, which were so bad that they were replaced after half a year. For 2012 we had unpredictable tyres and ban of EBD. For 2011 we had DRS and Pirelli tyres. For 2010 we had no refueling.

I believe there will be a limit of 4 power unit for the season before penalties.  Ridiculous in my book!

[DutchQuicksilver]

With stable regulations for at least next year I don't see any reason why Mercedes can't hold this advantage. They have the budget, the staff and the drivers to keep performing as they are.

 

Also, it's looking unlikely that the engine freeze will be lifted, so they for now they will also hold their engine advantage.

[F1matt]

In theory the rest should close the gap. But...... Ferrari signing Vettel have bought themselves another year of transition, Honda are going to have problems and Mclaren are still way behind Williams never mind Mercedes, Red Bull have lost key people so the chassis will be interesting and can Renalut be any worse? lotus could be interesting with their Mercedes partnership. If I had to have a bet I would go for Mercedes again fir both titles, with whoever wins this year having back to back titles and Red Bull as the main challenger.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

I think they can dominate for a couple more seasons at the very least. I think Rosberg is having a Webber 2010 season though. Consistent but only close to the title because his team mate has suffered reliability issues. I think Hamilton will blow Rosberg away in the next few seasons though just like Vettel did to Webber. Hopefully not though. Really hoping for a close season where we have three or more teams at near equal pace!

 

What reliability issues?

 

3 vs 2 DNF's.

 

Every race he has finished he has been on the podium.

 

Nico has been consistent and impressive too. I agree Lewis has a higher gear than Nico but it is still very close between them.

 

Just look at their head to head statistics; starts, points, poles wins, fastest laps. They are the the closest matched pairing in F1.

 

It's this 'poor poor Lewis' fan boy mentality that is grating. He has been in the best car all season. Even starting from the back he has finished on the podium such is his advantage.

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 12 October 2014 - 15:08.

[El_Rápido]

Mark Hughes had this to say on McLaren/Ferrari 2015 onwards.

http://www1.skysport...orm-next-season

The Merc just seems to be getting better and better though

 

Oh yeah, Mark Hughes talking up a friend who works for a team undergoing radical re-structuring. Unbiased opinion if ever there was one.

 

Truth be told, what Mark is talking about aren't isolated errors made by a team that overvalues reliability to anything else, Ferrari's main issue is that they are, as of lately, one step behind in the innovation department. They are reactionary more than pace-setters. This is the reason why Fernando Alonso is most likely leaving the team. Fernando Alonso actually WORKS for the team and actually conditioned his future in the team to the improvements this year. Needless to say, he was not impressed, which is bad news for Ferrari fans.

 

I tell you what, why don't we create a chart for all of these Mark Hughes' "predictions"? I would love, LOVE, to get everyone to see how wrong this guy gets it so many times.

[HoldenRT]

As long as the engines are frozen, it's definitely possible.  Or even likely..

 

People complained of Redbull and even called them cheats on many occasions, but it was never like this and the aero was never frozen.

 

I haven't minded this season, it's been a good change.  It makes you appreciate the results more when they are harder to get.  Maybe it'd get old after a few seasons though.

 

The battle between Ferrari/Williams/Redbull and co has been good.  As long as there are things like this, the season can still be enjoyable.  I've never cared that much about who wins the race or the championships but more about the enjoyment of the races on a weekly or fortnightly basis.  That's why I never understood all the whining about Vettel's success.

 

There's been plenty of good races this season.  And I'm assuming there will be plenty of good races next season.

[JensonWDC]

Just make the tyres softer by two steps and we´re having fun again

[sennafan24]

What reliability issues?

 

3 vs 2 DNF's.

How many times has Nico started from the back of the grid?

 

 

Just look at their head to head statistics; starts, points, poles wins, fastest laps. They are the the closest matched pairing in F1.

Let us have a look at race day stats

 

Wins 9-4 

Best result 10-6

Ahead when both finished 8-3

 

All in favour of Lewis.

Edited by sennafan24, 12 October 2014 - 15:24.

[f1RacingForever]

History has shown that when Brawn leaves a team they become to so good soon after.

[scheivlak]

As long as the engines are frozen, it's definitely possible.  Or even likely..

 

 

So for six weeks.

[OO7]

As for the thread title, I'd say things are looking sketchy for Mercedes in 2964.

[Nonesuch]

People complained of Redbull and even called them cheats on many occasions, but it was never like this and the aero was never frozen.

 

People didn't call Red Bull cheats because they were dominant, but because of their failure to comply with the technical regulations.
 

The battle between Ferrari/Williams/Redbull and co has been good. As long as there are things like this, the season can still be enjoyable.

 

True enough, some of the best moments of this year have definitely been the battles between Red Bull and the Ferrari of Alonso.

 

The WCC was always going to be won by Mercedes, and the WDC in all likelihood by Hamilton, but there have been plenty of enjoyable moments around. It just has that little extra appeal when the battle is for 1st rather than 5th.

[BigBadBless]

What reliability issues?

 

3 vs 2 DNF's.

 

Every race he has finished he has been on the podium.

 

Nico has been consistent and impressive too. I agree Lewis has a higher gear than Nico but it is still very close between them.

 

Just look at their head to head statistics; starts, points, poles wins, fastest laps. They are the the closest matched pairing in F1.

 

It's this 'poor poor Lewis' fan boy mentality that is grating. He has been in the best car all season. Even starting from the back he has finished on the podium such is his advantage.

 

Wrong, every race Hamilton has finished he's been on the podium, Nico hasn't. He finished P4 in Hungary.

And what do you mean what reliability issues? If nico had DNF'd this race, then started the next 2 from p20 and pitlane, would you feel confident of him taking the championship? Because that would make it even. 

[RosannaG]

It looks like it but who knows? Things can change fast so we'll see.

 

Or things can be changed very fast if needed. Do not forget that TV audiences are going down... 

[Jejking]

As for the thread title, I'd say things are looking sketchy for Mercedes in 2964.

Because Hamilton will leave the team by then?

[MirNyet]

No it cannot due in part to where that advantage comes from. It is highly likely that a chunk of their advantage has already been lost - but those increases in performance for the other teams is currently sitting on a dyno trapped behind the engine freeze. We also have a situation where Mercedes themselves hobbled their nearest completion by withholding installation information - lessons which will only be a factor this year.

 

Next years chassis will all be a lot closer as teams follow the correct (successful) path - and the engines will be closer as lessons have been learned. I personally expect one more year of Mercedes domination and then something more level in 2016.

[Newbrray]

As long as the engines are frozen, it's definitely possible.  Or even likely..

 

People complained of Redbull and even called them cheats on many occasions, but it was never like this and the aero was never frozen.

 

I haven't minded this season, it's been a good change.  It makes you appreciate the results more when they are harder to get.  Maybe it'd get old after a few seasons though.

 

The battle between Ferrari/Williams/Redbull and co has been good.  As long as there are things like this, the season can still be enjoyable.  I've never cared that much about who wins the race or the championships but more about the enjoyment of the races on a weekly or fortnightly basis.  That's why I never understood all the whining about Vettel's success.

 

There's been plenty of good races this season.  And I'm assuming there will be plenty of good races next season.

 

The aero might not have been frozen but the engines were. If they were not maybe the likes of Ferrari and Mercedes would have caught up with red bull. The rules were frozen for engines and Mercedes sucked it up then.

 

Others should suck it up now and stop complaining. I didn't hear you post that the rules should be relaxed for engines when Redbull was winning

Edited by Newbrray, 12 October 2014 - 15:44.

[thesham01]

What reliability issues?

3 vs 2 DNF's.

Every race he has finished he has been on the podium.

Nico has been consistent and impressive too. I agree Lewis has a higher gear than Nico but it is still very close between them.

Just look at their head to head statistics; starts, points, poles wins, fastest laps. They are the the closest matched pairing in F1.

It's this 'poor poor Lewis' fan boy mentality that is grating. He has been in the best car all season. Even starting from the back he has finished on the podium such is his advantage.

One more DNF and two races starting from the back of the grid due to no-fault issues. Add to that Monaco and you get the picture.

Hamilton has blown Rosberg away this year in fair fights.

[SamH123]

Another year of this would be a bit disappointing for the neutral

Hamilton could make the championship more boring another year as well

 

I imagine the FIA are searching for some kind of rule change to hinder Merc but can't find one