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Can Mercedes' advantage last forever?


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Poll: Can Mercedes' advantage last forever? (180 member(s) have cast votes)

Can Mercedes hold their number 1 status for a few more years?Yes

  1. Yes (121 votes [67.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 67.22%

  2. No (59 votes [32.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.78%

Do you enjoy Formula Mercedes?

  1. Yes, I do (90 votes [50.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

  2. No, I would love to see a year like 2008 (90 votes [50.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

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#51 BigBadBless

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 16:43

Another year of this would be a bit disappointing for the neutral

Hamilton could make the championship more boring another year as well

 

I imagine the FIA are searching for some kind of rule change to hinder Merc but can't find one  :well:

 

Agreed. FRIC has gone, no driver coaching, what next? Not that I'm against either of these in particular, I'm just not fond of rule changes /interpretation changes mid-season. 


Edited by StefanArak, 12 October 2014 - 16:43.


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#52 blackmme

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 16:45

No

Regards Mike

#53 KavB

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 16:53

What reliability issues?

 

3 vs 2 DNF's.

 

Every race he has finished he has been on the podium.

 

Nico has been consistent and impressive too. I agree Lewis has a higher gear than Nico but it is still very close between them.

 

Just look at their head to head statistics; starts, points, poles wins, fastest laps. They are the the closest matched pairing in F1.

 

It's this 'poor poor Lewis' fan boy mentality that is grating. He has been in the best car all season. Even starting from the back he has finished on the podium such is his advantage.

I'm far from a Lewis fanboy! I'd rather any driver but him take the title and I am actually wishing for Nico to win the title. The car has been really great that his qualifying issues didn't really matter and actually at Hungary, I think it turned out better that he started from behind because the leaders all got screwed. But when you are so far ahead that you are only fighting your team mate then one extra DNF does matter. Lewis has negated that DNF and then some. In terms of qualifying, Nico has been right up there but he doesn't stand a chance against Lewis in a 1 on 1 fight. If there were other teams in the mix then I could see Nico doing better.

 

But yeah, hopefully we do not see Mercedes dominate the next few years. It is rather boring seeing a championship being fought by only one pair of teammates. A championship is more exciting when we have multiple teams fighting for it rather than it being a case of whoever wins the inter team battle becomes a champion.



#54 SR388

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 17:03

I see a potential RBR style run of things.

I enjoy it as long as it is Our Hamilton winning. If it's someone else winning, then it's horrible.

#55 Kraken

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 17:18

I remember Lotus,Williams,McLaren,Ferrari and Red Bull all being just as dominant. Always goes in cycles.



#56 Disgrace

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 18:22

Mercedes have been exceptional but there is an element of cashing in on the work of the departed Ross Brawn. The current honchos do leave some things to be desired, and they don't seem to command the respect of the drivers that Brawn did. If they continue to perform at this level next year, I think it would be even more impressive.



#57 Timstr11

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 18:36

The design team and structure is still in place. Paddy and Toto are there only to ensure required resources are available. So I don't think Mercedes will do less next year.

 

But I do believe others will do significantly better.

I expect RedBull to pick up quite a bit of pace. Newey has been absent the past few races and I reckon he's unturning all stones in Milton Keynes to come out with an extremely well packaged car. Also since now he's pretty much got Renault under his control. They are going to push Renault and themselves quite hard.

 

Honda could be a big surprise as well. Of all engine manufacturers, they will have the most data on Mercedes's engine architecture and performance, which is a great benchmark for them to work against. If McLaren manage to improve their aero, which they surely will, they could make a big jump.

 

I expect the least from Ferrari somehow.


Edited by Timstr11, 12 October 2014 - 18:38.


#58 femi

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 18:40

Mercedes have been exceptional but there is an element of cashing in on the work of the departed Ross Brawn. The current honchos do leave some things to be desired, and they don't seem to command the respect of the drivers that Brawn did. If they continue to perform at this level next year, I think it would be even more impressive.


I am not a fan of Toto, and I suspect Nikki isn't either but I think he is a good administrator, communicator; even in foreign language, a subtle control freak, a clear and quick thinker punching above his academic qualifications and to be fair, it is very difficult to "cash in" and maintain such an impressive level of team management and performance over the entire season as they are sure to do. Having said all that, I think he is a Nico man and I think his language might have been completely different if Nico is achieving what Lewis is doing.

He is worth listening to because if you carefully read between the lines of what he says, it provides a window into Mercedes board thinking more than what Nikki reflects which is his personal opinion - mostly and lastly, looking up and down the paddock, I do not see any team with superior management capability that beats the Merc team.

I expect Merc to do well for years to come under his management - even if I am not a great fan of his.

Edited by femi, 12 October 2014 - 18:44.


#59 OO7

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 18:42

Another year of this would be a bit disappointing for the neutral

Hamilton could make the championship more boring another year as well

 

I imagine the FIA are searching for some kind of rule change to hinder Merc but can't find one  :well:

Such as thawing the engines?



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#60 JHSingo

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 18:48

Hopefully not. While it has been mildly better than Red Bull domination (because HAM/ROS have been able to race each other) it has got to the stage where it is a bit too predictable now.

 

I hope if they unfreeze the engine regulations Ferrari and Renault will be able to catch up. As a fan of racing rather than a supporter of a particular team/driver, I prefer to see a close championship with more than one team in the mix.


Edited by JHSingo, 12 October 2014 - 18:49.


#61 sopa

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 18:51

As for the thread title, I'd say things are looking sketchy for Mercedes in 2964.

 

It is worth mentioning though that Mercedes did lose its advantage briefly in 2739, but got it back again.



#62 Watkins74

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 18:53

I see a potential RBR style run of things.

I enjoy it as long as it is Our Hamilton winning. If it's someone else winning, then it's horrible.


Points for honesty.

#63 Astro

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 18:58

Mark Hughes had this to say on McLaren/Ferrari 2015 onwards.

http://www1.skysport...orm-next-season

The Merc just seems to be getting better and better though

 

Interesting article by Mark Hughes, and I agree with him. I am not an expert in the technical side of this sport by any means, but looking at the regulations I can't see where the magic extra horsepower/aero improvement is going to come from in order for Mercedes to maintain its dominance (habanero fuel?).

 

The second question is no. I cringe with this formula of "save fuel", "take care of your tires" and "respect the beeps".

 

rtr.gif



#64 engineblock1

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 18:59

In a year or two, everyone will have fair understanding of how to get maximum out of current PU system, and it will at least even out at the power train end. Then we would be back to a Formula where a good chassis/aero will matter again. At that point, things can change and we might see the team come on top, who gets the best people in the business.

 

About enjoying Formula Mercedes, I have no problems watching them win a lot of races, as long as it isn't only one driver who is downright dominant. This year has been kept alive by Mercedes allowing its drivers to fight, respect to them for this. But I would also like to mention this season, we had some other distractions that made this season worthy of watching despite Merc looking like in a different formula, namely:

 

- Alonso & Raikkonen in same team

- Ricciardo beating Vettel

- Bottas having measure of Massa

- Williams emerging again



#65 Jamiednm

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 19:01

 

I don't even think either of Rosberg or Hamilton have driven that well this year, the car is just miles better than anything else. A real shame. 

 

Do you actually believe that? Especially in Hamiltons case?



#66 KingTiger

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 19:04

I like how everyone assumes engine development will help Renault and especially Ferrari. More likely that Mercedes will just get better and better. 

 

History shows that BAR/Honda/Mercedes (early years) were not great at in season development. They've obviously improved but I think the likes of Mclaren and Red Bull do have better facilities than them. Maybe Ferrari too (but with less cohesion).

 

The engine though is stonking. Red Bull still have a better chassis I feel.

 

Next year will be much tighter I think.

 

In what world does Red Bull have a better chassis? Mercedes have been clearly better on every type of track.



#67 MirNyet

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 20:07

Engine development would help Red Bull and Ferrari as they have made quite serious errors in their overall package compared to Mercedes - in running the engines in anger against the Mercedes - those errors are quite likely understood. Also - the pit lane is full of gossip (the 2007 nonsense showed that) so a lot of the design of the Mercedes PU will be known to the other design departments of Renault and Ferrari (and Honda). While Mercedes will have details of how to improve their own PU, Renault and Ferrari could make larger gains than Mercedes in the short term as they have more area's of the design to improve.

 

This doesn't mean that Renault and Ferrari would leapfrog Mercedes - but they would be a lot closer than they are right now.



#68 LORDBYRON

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 20:29

Red Bull are only behind simply that the FIA wanted change to save viewers giving two/four years mercs downfall will be the same.



#69 Longtimefan

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 20:37

No and No.



#70 Donkey

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 20:58

Another year of this would be a bit disappointing for the neutral

Hamilton could make the championship more boring another year as well

 

I imagine the FIA are searching for some kind of rule change to hinder Merc but can't find one  :well:

 

Well they tried banning the FRIC suspension but that didn't do a whole lot to slow them down relative to the rest of the field.

 

I think the problem this year is that Mercedes have just built a stunningly sophisticated and integrated car, powered by a beast of an engine, plus their aero is sufficiently competitive with Newey's Red Bull. It's going to go into the history books as on a par with the MP4/5, FW14B and the like. They spent at least 2 years developing it and sacrificed a lot of 2013 performance in order to be miles ahead of everyone else at the start of 2014. But they did tell everyone about their 2014 focus well in advance, and the other teams probably should have paid more attention to Hamilton's big name move from McLaren.

 

I think the other teams will catch up though, at least by the middle of next season. McLaren and Ferrari will get back to winning ways eventually, although McLaren need to negotiate the switch to Honda engines and Ferrari just need to.....sort themselves out? RBR won't stick around for too long if they aren't winning but they have plenty of money and I'm sure they would have switched focus to 2015 quite early in the season.

 


 



#71 Timstr11

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 21:22

RBR has switched focus to 2015 for quite some time I think. Have not see any aero update of significance since the summer break. 



#72 OO7

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 21:25

RBR has switched focus to 2015 for quite some time I think. Have not see any aero update of significance since the summer break. 

This surprised me because there is a lot of carry over through to 2015.



#73 apoka

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 21:35

Forever? No, because F1 is entertainment. After a sufficiently long period, it will be ensured that other teams prevail. The rule changes after 2011 were basically made to hinder Red Bull (and you could say Vettel) and I would expect the same to happen to Merc if their dominance continues for years (although in their cases it is less urgent as there is no clearly leading driver).


Edited by apoka, 12 October 2014 - 21:36.


#74 paperscissorspopcorn

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 21:39

Red Bull had to Newey to constantly stay ahead of the competition, is Lowe up to that level is the question.



#75 FlitchPower

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 21:42

Nothing lasts forever, eventually the FIA will step In to even things out. The problem if you 're not Mercedes is they have a huge engine advantage which may or may not end up being locked in but they pretty much have the all star team on the chassis side now Newey is on his semi-retirement and Prodromou is off to McLaren. Look at it this way, RB is bleeding technical staff, Ferrari is again rebuilding, McLaren are too after 2 years of duds on the chassis side plus Honda coming in so short term it's looking very rosy for Merc

#76 sopa

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 22:09

Red Bull had to Newey to constantly stay ahead of the competition, is Lowe up to that level is the question.

 

Maybe the current Mercedes engine factory in Brixworth has got the "Newey equivalent". The new design guru in F1 no-one can match, this time in the powerplant department as opposed to aerodynamics!



#77 HammyHamiltonFan

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 06:13

Mercedes will likely have the best car next year as well at least, if Hamilton wins the title then I can see him dominating next year as well, Rosberg would be even further behind without Lewis having bad luck at a few races, 9 wins to 4 would normally be a trouncing.



#78 klyster

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 07:26

After four years of Vettel and Red Bull, with no chance of a challenge from anyone, it's good to see someone else doing it, and there's still a question over who the Champ will be, unlike previous years.

 

I'm liking the dominance, but I do understand those who don't......I had four years of that...



#79 Astro

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 08:57

After four years of Vettel and Red Bull, with no chance of a challenge from anyone, it's good to see someone else doing it, and there's still a question over who the Champ will be, unlike previous years.

 

I'm liking the dominance, but I do understand those who don't......I had four years of that...

 

You said it yourself: "no chance of a challenge from anyone".

 

EDIT: OK, I read "I don't". My bad.


Edited by Astro, 13 October 2014 - 08:59.


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#80 KTownDevil

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 09:44

Yes / No

 

But of course, Hamilton's fans are loving Merc domination. If it's Vettel, Formula 1 is 'boring'.



#81 Zoetrope

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 09:57

Yes / No

 

But of course, Hamilton's fans are loving Merc domination. If it's Vettel, Formula 1 is 'boring'.

There is a difference between Vettel and Webber rivarly and Hamilton and Rosberg rivarly. However as a Hamilton fan I have to say 2014 could have been better. And I expected better. We were given just a few races where both drivers fought for victory on track - Canada, Bahrain, Monza, Japan. With honorable mention to Spain and Monaco. It's certainly better than Vettel vs Webber, but not fully up to potential. But if we had Alonso next to Hamilton, I bet you would be also loving Formula Mercedes.

The racing itself has been better this year than 2011 and 2013, but not sure if better than 2012.

Overall, it's been better just one year so far. Quite good year, but it's still too early to judge whether this is better or worse than RBR era. We also don't know yet if the teams will close the gap in 2015 or Mercedes will pull away even further - which also is a decisive factor in rating an era.



#82 Boxerevo

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 10:09

The last proper championship was fought in 2010.



#83 kosmos

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 10:11

Second question needs more options, I don't enjoy it, but I don't hate it either, it is what it is and they deserve it.



#84 scolbourne

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 10:35

This is a very artificial domination by the Mercedes powered teams.

The engine freeze is a total farce and is ruining the championship for me.

Give the other teams a chance to catch up and dont use the argument that the freeze was to save on costs. Just look at how much Mercedes spent at designing the current engine.



#85 FlitchPower

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 10:35

There is a difference between Vettel and Webber rivarly and Hamilton and Rosberg rivarly. However as a Hamilton fan I have to say 2014 could have been better. And I expected better. We were given just a few races where both drivers fought for victory on track - Canada, Bahrain, Monza, Japan. With honorable mention to Spain and Monaco. It's certainly better than Vettel vs Webber, but not fully up to potential. But if we had Alonso next to Hamilton, I bet you would be also loving Formula Mercedes.

The racing itself has been better this year than 2011 and 2013, but not sure if better than 2012.

Overall, it's been better just one year so far. Quite good year, but it's still too early to judge whether this is better or worse than RBR era. We also don't know yet if the teams will close the gap in 2015 or Mercedes will pull away even further - which also is a decisive factor in rating an era.



To be honest with you the only difference is the ilusion of rivalry cause Mercedes are running the car at 80% so both drivers are driving well within the cars limits.

#86 SGWilko

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 10:55

According to Italian media, Merc have found a lot more power over this years' engine for their 2015 unit, to the point where they're telling customer teams to increase the cooling. I'd be amazed if anyone beat them next year. 

 

Being totally cynical here, but if you wanted your customers to be slower than your works team, the easiest way is to ask them to have lots of drag on their car - easiest way to achieve that......? :mad:



#87 F1ultimate

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 10:58

Sochi exaggerated Mercedes's advantaged. Had it not been for overly durable tyres, Rosberg would have had to pit a second time, and would have, at best, finished 4-5th. 

 

Put Alonso in a Williams and the fight at the top would be a tiny bit closer.



#88 FlitchPower

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 11:01

Sochi exaggerated Mercedes's advantaged. Had it not been for overly durable tyres, Rosberg would have had to pit a second time, and would have, at best, finished 4-5h.

Put Alonso in a Williams and the fight at the top would be a tiny bit closer.


Debatable he was't really pushing till people started pitting, if tyres where less durable and he was forced into an extra stop he would be pushing all the way

#89 ForzaGTR

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 11:23

Next year will be closer, but I expect Merc to fix their reliability problems which will still make it very tough for them to be beaten, it's quite clear Merc rarely open the taps completely for fear of reliability issues, however on the rare occasion they do (Bahrain, Singapore etc) they are as much as 2 seconds a lap faster. I would expect Red Bull to be a lot closer on less engine dependent tracks.But Merc look set to dominate 2015 at least.

#90 aditya-now

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 11:26

This is far better than Red Bull or Ferrari dominating with a number 2 driver. I think this season's been great, although I can believe 1987, 88 and 89 were more titanic battles, they're a bit before my time though! As long as the dominant team lets the two cars race and the drivers are closely matched it's still plenty entertaining.

 

Indeed. Somehow Formula Red Bull and Formula Ferrari/Schumacher were suffocating the sport.

 

Formula Mercedes 2014 is, like the Senna/Prost years, a welcome spice-up to the sport.



#91 paulogman

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 11:54

Any team that has dominated has earned it through hard work.
McLaren Honda
Williams Renault
Schumacher brawn and ferrari bridgestone
redbull Renault
and not least adrian newey.
all their domination came from out working the competition.
Mercedes out worked ferrari and Renault and deserve their time in the sun.

#92 labarte

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 12:05

Advantages like the merc one don't dissappear very quickly. The R&D that has gone into the current car is not just down to some blokes in a big shed somewhere in Oxfordshire. You are seeing the result of a massive global engineering company with revenues of over 180bn a year going pretty much all out for two years to win the wcc and wdc. The new rules have changed the requirements of the sport. It will take at least two seasons for the other teams to catch up not least because they have to integrate their engine and chassis teams in an unprecedented way. There is a chance that one team may find some loophole but with the rules increasingly designed to stamp out creativity it will be very tough to upset the order. There is a reason newey is leaving f1, he can see that winning is just going to be about the application of corporate power with less room for brilliant individuals.

As for the idea of scrapping the engine freeze, it has to be done for next year at least. Of course costs will increase but merc will be so far ahead otherwise that the sport will be a joke next year if nothing is done. I also do not see how f1 can expect new manufacturers to join if development is limited to what you can get done before every February, particularly with so few testing opportunities.

#93 SGWilko

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 12:14

I believe there will be a limit of 4 power unit for the season before penalties.  Ridiculous in my book!

Why is this ridiculous?

 

Personally, I think they should be tasked with one PU & gearbox for the season.

 

It's not exactly tantamount to good road engine transference, is it?  Unless you quite fancy changing your car engine half way up the A1 on a holiday to Fort Willliam........ and then have to change it again on the way back.

 

OK, so a bit tongue in cheek, but you get the drift.



#94 FlitchPower

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 12:29

You don't change 8 sets of tyres every weekend either you also want them to have one set of tyres for the season too?

#95 NateF1

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 13:01

Big question mark for me is to what extent teams will be capable (within the regulations) of catching up on the engine deficit. From what I've picked up during the season in terms of cornering speeds (entry/exit/mid-corner) as well as things like braking and traction, I do think Merc actually have the best all-round chassis, but RB isn't far behind and will likely improve next year, so the main performance differentiator will again be engine.

 

The regs suggest that increasingly 'limited' performance updates can be made during the off season in both 2015 and 2016, but in reality how much will this actually allow? Very hard to judge at this point. If the areas of engine development are very restricted then Merc (and potentially their customer teams) could enjoy dominance for a while, until the FIA decide that we need more competition. If there's a fair amount of flex for development in the regulations then we could get engine parity or close to it, and then it comes down to chassis. In that scenario then at least one of the big budget teams will I'm sure genuinely challenge Merc.

 

One final point is that I'd definitely be more pessimistic about the potential of other teams to upset the Mercedes apple cart if a certain Mr Brawn was still at the helm.



#96 William Hunt

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 13:03

the title is misleading, you say 'forever' in the title which is impossible but in the poll you say 'a few more years'



#97 sennafan24

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 14:04

Toto and Lauda are kings. I will not have a word said against either   ;)

 

Honda may take a year or so to iron out the creases, but come 2016, they could be a real challenge. We shall see how the others develop over the winter.


Edited by sennafan24, 13 October 2014 - 14:04.