150 replies to this topic

[jimjimjeroo]

So, Vettel has run out of engines and will not be taking part in Qualifying! Who'll be next ?!

[Jackmancer]

Do you have a source? 

Why wouldn't he take part in qualifying?

[pedrorito]

yes.. source?

[Zava]

Do you have a source? 

Why wouldn't he take part in qualifying?

because he will have a total PU replacement = pitlane start, no point in wasting engine life and tyres?

 

I think he himself said so in his post race interview.

[blacky]

Vettel said this in an interview after the race with "RTL" I think.

[jimjimjeroo]

Sorry guys had moderation issues!!

http://www.motorspor...tlane-in-austin

[prostspeed]

Tobias Grüner F1 ‏@tgruener  20h20 hours ago

#F1 Vettel will use 6th engine in Austin. He already announced not to take part in qualifying cause he will start from pitlane anyway.

[Jimisgod]

Oops. Guess Dan's won it then.

[ANF]

I reckon he would still have to set a time in Q1? They can't just choose not to take part in qualifying for this reason, can they?

[SpaceHorseParty]

I reckon he would still have to set a time in Q1? They can't just choose not to take part in qualifying for this reason, can they?

This would likely be deemed an exception to the 107% rule by the stewards (if Vettel, of course, sets competitive enough laptimes in the FP sessions). Not the first time someone who hasn't set a time in Q1 was allowed to start the race, though up until now this happened because the car broke down/wass crashed before the driver could set a time.

[Gilles4Ever]

I reckon he would still have to set a time in Q1? They can't just choose not to take part in qualifying for this reason, can they?

They could always take their time changing the engine and miss qually that way

[KWSN - DSM]

Some one enlighten me, what is the reason they can / will they not attempt qualifying with new powerunit?

 

[EthanM]

Some one enlighten me, what is the reason they can / will they not attempt qualifying with new powerunit?

 

 

no point wasting engine mileage and tyres when he will have to start from the pitlane anyway (he changing the whole power unit so it's not a grid penalty, it's a forced pitlane start)

[Adelaide]

What happens if other drivers do the same? How will they decide who lines up in the pit lane first with no qualifying?

[EthanM]

What happens if other drivers do the same? How will they decide who lines up in the pit lane first with no qualifying?

 

if none set a q time it's first come first served (ie first to get to the end of the pitlane after it closes starts first)

[Gilles4Ever]

if none set a q time it's first come first served (ie first to get to the end of the pitlane after it closes starts first)

I dont think so, I think it comes down to when the penalty was issued, first to notify stewards of engine change starts first in pit lane

[HoldenRT]

De ja vu.  Probably would have been better to do it this weekend that just went by, but too late now.

[Zava]

De ja vu.  Probably would have been better to do it this weekend that just went by, but too late now.

I think they wanted to, but the replacement pieces didn't get there on time due to customs problems...

[EthanM]

I dont think so, I think it comes down to when the penalty was issued, first to notify stewards of engine change starts first in pit lane

 

dunno there is no such provision, the regs say they must start in the order they qualified, if none post a time then there is no order, time of penalty works when sorting out an existing order, not sure it can work to establish an order

[HoldenRT]

I think they wanted to, but the replacement pieces didn't get there on time due to customs problems...

 

Yep, makes sense.

[Gilles4Ever]

c) Once the grid has been established in accordance with a) and b) above, grid position penalties will be applied to the drivers in question in the order the offences were
committed. If more than one driver incurs a penalty under Article 28.4(a) or Article 28.6(a) preference will be given to the driver whose team first informed the technical
delegate that an engine or gearbox change will be carried out.

[EthanM]

yup, like I said that applies to the grid which has an established order, we are talking about what happens if there is no established order (ie 2-3 people don't set a time). I am sure I remember a couple of years ago there were 2 cars starting from the pitlane and the commentary was there was a "mini" race about who would get to the end of pitlane first right when it closes. But I could be wrong

[KWSN - DSM]

Well then we once again have example of very very poor regulations. I know there is a thread somewhere detailing how all the drivers stand in regard having used the various parts making up the engine, but I can not make heads and tails of those listings, how many other drivers are in same situation as Vettel? So come Brazil and Abu Dhabi will we have 5 - 7 drivers starting from the pitlane? What a 'great' spectacle they have build for us.

 

[Exb]

Well then we once again have example of very very poor regulations. I know there is a thread somewhere detailing how all the drivers stand in regard having used the various parts making up the engine, but I can not make heads and tails of those listings, how many other drivers are in same situation as Vettel? So come Brazil and Abu Dhabi will we have 5 - 7 drivers starting from the pitlane? What a 'great' spectacle they have build for us.

 

 Currently only the Ferrari drivers would be able to do the same and put a whole new unit in and start from the pit-lane in Austin (as they have already used all 5 parts of each element of the engine).

 

However nearly any other driver could also be in the situation if they really wanted to by running 5th parts on Friday in Austin and then replacing everything for a 6th part on Saturday. (the only drivers not able to do so would be Vergne/Kvyat/Maldonado as they have already taken a 6th part of an element)

Edited by Exb, 13 October 2014 - 10:18.

[search]

how many other drivers are in same situation as Vettel? So come Brazil and Abu Dhabi will we have 5 - 7 drivers starting from the pitlane? What a 'great' spectacle they have build for us.

 

 

so far no one has changed the whole power unit, and doing this although it is not necessary is not really in the spirit of the rules I think. I doubt many more teams will do that as the benefit is not big enough for most

[kosmos]

Missing qualy on purpose, is that allowed?.

[FlitchPower]

Missing qualy on purpose, is that allowed?.

They can do a really steady instal lap in the 5 minute neighborhood, would that be better ?

[ExFlagMan]

Only need to claim a 'technical problem' with the car and who can prove otherwise.

[Oho]

Missing qualy on purpose, is that allowed?.

 

How can it be prevented without even more farcical display of drivers doing a single lap or relatively slow three or two lap (second lap is already timed with driver crossing the timing line at the beginning and the end albeit on pit lane) run in Q1 for the sake of filling the letter or the rule.

Edited by Oho, 13 October 2014 - 10:31.

[Exb]

so far no one has changed the whole power unit, and doing this although it is not necessary is not really in the spirit of the rules I think. I doubt many more teams will do that as the benefit is not big enough for most

The benefit is huge if they need to change several of the elements and are facing a grid penalty which could total up to around 20 spots (for 3 elements needing a 6th unit) - especially for those who qualify around the top 10 normally (so maybe 8 back), as 20 grid penalties would be 2 races starting from from the back of the grid as opposed to just 1 pit-lane start (and gain 'free' extra elements that may come in useful at the same time) as well as saving tyres/engine milage from not doing qualifying and concentrating on setting the car up just for the race... (If they only need to change 1 of the elements and they are likely to qualify towards the front then I agree it would not be worth it). 

[paulogman]

vettel's checked out already.
he should just skip the final races
back injury? kimi style

[BRG]

back injury? kimi style

Shoulder injury.

 

From tossing his toys out of his pram.

[wj_gibson]

When was the last time there a Forumla 1 event that didn't involve someone having to take a grid penalty of some sort - the opening race of the seasons excluded, of course.

[Nonesuch]

When was the last time there a Forumla 1 event that didn't involve someone having to take a grid penalty of some sort - the opening race of the seasons excluded, of course.

Singapore 2014?

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Only need to claim a 'technical problem' with the car and who can prove otherwise.

Car data?

[bourbon]

vettel's checked out already.
he should just skip the final races
back injury? kimi style

 

Ridicule Vettel for making the most intelligent decision based on the stupid new FIA regulations?  That is pretty low, imo.  Why would any team or driver wish to put on the extra km and risk more parts failing and further penalties after this draconian one?

[DaddyCool]

Bourbon is right.

 

In fact, I raised this question in the other thread - when you're going to qualify on the back of the grid anyways, why do teams opt for replacing one component only, when you could change the whole PU? (See Maldonado's penalty the last 2 races).

[Nonesuch]

Why would any team or driver wish to put on the extra km and risk more parts failing and further penalties after this draconian one?

Who knows, but isn't that what Vergne and Maldonado did in Japan?

I think it's a smart choice. At the start of the season few people would have guessed it would even take until the race in Texas for these problems to emerge for Red Bull, so all in all it's probably a good idea to play it safe and avoid further penalties in Brazil or Abu Dhabi.

[alfa1]

c) Once the grid has been established in accordance with a) and b) above, grid position penalties will be applied to the drivers in question in the order the offences were
committed. If more than one driver incurs a penalty under Article 28.4(a) or Article 28.6(a) preference will be given to the driver whose team first informed the technical
delegate that an engine or gearbox change will be carried out.

 

A few days back, I'd posted in another thread a different section of rules. Looking over the regs once again, it seems the FIA have written them in such a way as to be contradictory to each other.

 

Now this won't apply to Vettel if he doesnt go out on track, but the "Article 28.4(a) or Article 28.6(a)" part talks about the limited number of power units/gearboxes, and states they are deemed to be used when the car leaves pit lane.

 

So.. in the Article 36 posted, the first sentence says "in the order the offences were committed" (when they leave pit lane), after which it doubles back and says "whose team first informed the technical delegate".

 

Why cant the FIA write simple rules?!?!

[SHODAN]

The brilliance of racing regulations that result in less racing.

[Rinehart]

Another brilliantly thought out rule...

[nosecone]

Imagine one of the title-fighting Merc had to do this in the last (double points) race. Forum meltdown

[paulogman]

Ridicule Vettel for making the most intelligent decision based on the stupid new FIA regulations? That is pretty low, imo. Why would any team or driver wish to put on the extra km and risk more parts failing and further penalties after this draconian one?

ridicule? Good lord. I try to avoid fan boy topics for this reason.
watch any interview with vettel from the past 4 races. He is going through the motions. You twist it any way you want.

[FlitchPower]

Who knows, but isn't that what Vergne and Maldonado did in Japan?
.

Nope they changed subparts of the PU which attracts a grid penalty so there is an incentive to qualify as high as you can. Vettel is changing the whole PU which means even if he gets pole he will start from the pit lane therefore no incentive to qualify

[ExFlagMan]

Car data?

Not sure how much data the FIA get regarding something like a loose/broken floor or suchlike

[search]

In fact, I raised this question in the other thread - when you're going to qualify on the back of the grid anyways, why do teams opt for replacing one component only, when you could change the whole PU? (See Maldonado's penalty the last 2 races).

 

I guess the "small" teams have to pay for the components, so changing the whole unit is way more expensive than changing one single part of it?!

 

(edit: wrong quote)

Edited by search, 13 October 2014 - 11:58.

[redreni]

no point wasting engine mileage and tyres when he will have to start from the pitlane anyway (he changing the whole power unit so it's not a grid penalty, it's a forced pitlane start)

 

But if you don't qualify you've no automatic right to take the start, whether from the pit lane or anywhere else. That's why it's called qualifying. I'm sure nobody would object on pace grounds to him starting, if for example the team attempted to get him out on track in Q1 but ran out of time, but it's pushing it a bit to rely on people's goodwill when you're opting not to run in order to derive a reliability advantage in forthcoming races by limiting mileage now. I wouldn't agree to it if I were a rival team boss. Surely it's force majeur only if you want to be allowed to start despite not running in qualy.

Edited by redreni, 13 October 2014 - 11:59.

[BillBald]

De ja vu.  Probably would have been better to do it this weekend that just went by, but too late now.

 

I'm guessing that they think that the entire PU could last for 3 races without incurring further penalties, but maybe not for 4.

 

This might be Red Bull being very smart - not the first time.

[ExFlagMan]

Driving over the pit lane exit line would probably count as attempting to qualify, many drivers have failed to set a qualifying time by crashing/stopping on an out lap over the years.

[FlitchPower]

I guess the "small" teams have to pay for the components, so changing the whole unit is way more expensive than changing one single part of it?!

I am by no means a reg expert but my understanding is once a part is swapped out it can't be used again until the final race of the season. So if someone swapped in a 6th PU in Japan all the component would have to last all the way to and including brazil, further changes would incur further penalties. Vettel has used up all 5 PU subparts so he pretty much has to go for a 6th