40 replies to this topic

[Allen Brown]

Can anyone explain to me the different notations used for M12 engines?

 

As far as I can tell, the first M12 was created in 1968 (but some sources say 1970) for F2 in 1969 and then the M12/2 arrived for the 1970 season.  The 1973 F2 engine was the M12/6 and the 1976 F2 engine was the M12/8.  

 

So what was the original 2-litre engine that Dieter Quester used in a Chevron B16 in 1970, also at Macau 1970 and also in a Chevron B21 in 1972?  Dieter Basche may have built the B16 engine and it may have been a M10, but I'm not 100% on that.  Quester also had a 1600cc engine of some sort in a March 712M in 1971.  

 

Also in 1972, Schnitzer built a M12 engine for 2-litre sports car racing and I believe the first use of the M12/6 was in Jody Scheckter's 72A late in the 1972 season.  

[Michael Ferner]

I am no expert on this, but I recall also coming across 'M12/7' designation for F2. Also, the Schnitzer engines were completely different, at least in the beginnings, with inlet on the left side and exhaust on the right, the opposite of the 'works' engine. And it's Paul Rosche, not Dieter Basche...

[Allen Brown]

And it's Paul Rosche, not Dieter Basche...

 

Rosche was an engineer who worked for BMW and designed the F2 engine in 1972.  Perhaps better remembered for the F1 BMW engine.  Basche was a racer who also worked somewhere in BMW's race operation and was credited with building the engine that was put in the Chevron B16 in 1970.  Perhaps better remembered as head of Audi Sport.  Two different people.

[Michael Ferner]

Yeah, I know Dieter Basche, just recalling him being more of the managerial type. Don't recall him being involved in engineering, but that's entirely possible if you say so (was a bit before my time really). I just thought you'd confused the (quite similar) names... ONLY TRYING TO HELP!!!

[Allen Brown]

If I can't distinguish Paul Rosche and Dieter Basche, what chance do I have with Hiragana and Kanji?   

 

(in joke)

[Michael Ferner]

私たちはそれについて表示されます, アッレン!

[Allen Brown]

私たちはそれについて表示されます, アッレン!

Who's Arren?

[Michael Ferner]

[アッレンイスセガイアスキンシリクエスチョンス・ケンユスチッルフォッロか]

Edited by Michael Ferner, 16 October 2014 - 19:05.

[Allen Brown]

Can anyone explain to me the different notations used for M12 engines?

[funformula]

Can anyone explain to me the different notations used for M12 engines?

From www.edition-weiss-blau.de:

 

M12   4-Vent.-1,6 Ltr.-F2, diametral, 230 PS, Lucas-I., Dreifach-Zündung    1968

M12/1    1,6-4-Ventiler, diametral, F2, 235 PS, Kugelfischer-Einspritzung    1969

M12/2    1,6 Ltr.-Parallelventiler, 242 PS, Kufi-Einspr., Lola F2    1970

M12/3    2,0 Ltr.-Diametralventiler, 270 PS, Kufi, Chevron    1968

M12/3.1    4-Zyl., parallel, Kugelfischer, Basis für M12/5, M12/6 und M12/7

M12/4    4-Zyl-2,0 Ltr., diametr., Lola Formel 2, 248 PS, Kugelfi.-I.    1970

M12/5    4-Zylinder, 2,0 Ltr. Rennmotor, Parallelventiler (March)    1973

M12/6    4-Zyl., 2,0 Ltr., Chevron Formel 2, 275 PS, 40°-Ventile    1972

M12/7    306-330 PS, Kufi, F2+Gr. 5, March-Ralt-Chevron-Martini bis 1982

M12/8    4-Zylinder, parallel, Kugelfischer, Osella, 320 PS    1977

M12/9    2,0-Viervent.-Turbo, McLaren 320, 600 PS, Kufi, IMSA    1977

M12/10    2,0-Boot, Quandt, 280 PS, wassergek. Schalld., Kufi    1977

M12/11    2,1 Ltr., 640 PS, Kufi, 1,5 bar, 320 Turbo, Dt. RSM '77    1977

M12/12    1,4 Ltr., 450 PS, Kufi, 320 Turbo    1979

M12/13 S10B15    1,5 Ltr., Kufi/Motronic,Turbo, 850-1350 PS, Brabham F1 ab 1981

M12/14    2,0-800 PS, Kufi, McLaren, mod. Formel 1-Motor, IMSA    1985

[Michael Ferner]

Found this:

http://www.bmw-02-cl...-m10-uebersicht


Let me know if you have trouble with the German text.

[Michael Ferner]

Further research shows that the Schnitzer engine was called '20-4', and like the 'M12/x' series was based on the old 'M10' production engine which went back to a design by former racer Alex von Falkenhausen (of AFM fame)! According to what I found, Rosche did the design on the original 'M12' in 1968 - no involvement by Basche, as far as I can see. He was an engineer, true, but seems to have concentrated on chassis work.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 16 October 2014 - 20:12.

[MCS]

M12/6    4-Zyl., 2,0 Ltr., Chevron Formel 2, 275 PS, 40°-Ventile    1972

 

That has to be wrong.  Formule 2 / 1972 / 2.0 litre.  It was still all BDAs, certainly in Chevrons.

Edited by MCS, 16 October 2014 - 20:30.

[Michael Ferner]

Yes, F2 is wrong. My link, which seems to be more reliable info, shows the M12/6 to have been run in a '72 Chevron sports car, and in F2 from '73 onwards.

[Allen Brown]

The list on www.edition-weiss-blau.de seems pretty good and contains detail that http://www.bmw-02-club.de doesn't but I think the detais on usage is more solid in http://www.bmw-02-club.de.

 

What's the difference between Parallelventiler and Diametralventiler and why is that relevant?

[jm70]

Apfelbeck design head.  Radial valve placement vs parallel.

[Allen Brown]

Further research shows that the Schnitzer engine was called '20-4', and like the 'M12/x' series was based on the old 'M10' production engine which went back to a design by former racer Alex von Falkenhausen (of AFM fame)!

 

Thanks for this Michael.  I was recording Schnitzer engines as M12s which I now see isn't right.  Having corrected those,I now need to work through the various 1974 BMW-powered cars (GRD 273, Surtees TS15A, Chevron B27 and an Osella) and check where their engines had come from.  The Chevron B27s had engines out of March 742s IIRC but I don't know about the rest.

[Michael Ferner]

As said, if you have pictures it's pretty easy because of the inlet/exhaust configuration. From memory, the Brambillas and the Elf team used Schnitzer engines in '73 and '74, and didn't Laffite win the '75 championship with a Schnitzer?

[Michael Ferner]

Hm. This may turn out to be more complicated! A quick look through 1973 alone shows the Brambillas switching back to 'M12's by the end of the season, and Brabham, GRD and Motul/Rondel using Schnitzers in the latter part of the year. IIRC, the deal was that BMW had an exclusive deal with March for that year at least. Not sure how they would have been going about a breach, though!

[Allen Brown]

I hadn't looked at 1973 because I thought only March had factory BMWs so everything else was a Schnitzer.  In 1974, Autosport's new car announcements and race reports make it pretty clear that the only non-March factory BMWs were Team Harper's engines which had been transferred from March 742s into Chevron B27s and a "works BMW engine" in the Surtees TS15 EXP.  Everyone else, including the Surtees TS15As, the Baty Chevron B27, the Pierre Robert GRD 273 and of course the whole Alpine team had Schnitzer engines.  Well, so far anyway; I am only up to June.

[Mallory Dan]

I thought all 732s were supplied with 'works' BMWs. The only way non-March runners could get one was to buy a 732 and take it out. And yes I recall the Laffite '75 engine was a Schnitzer.   

[Rudernst]

differences beween "works" BMW engines and the Schnitzer

 

apart from the obvious, i.e. inlet to exhaust orientation, with the Schnitzer beeing "other way round" to accomodate saloon car use

 

works engines have gear driven cams,

Schnitzer engines are closer to the road engines in having chain driven cams

 

cost must have been an issue for Schnitzer

 

having spoken to an old ex F2 driver, the "works" versus Schnitzer thing had a bit of a religios quality,

he was convinced to this day that works BMW engines were more reliable, having blown up two

as if did not do their share of winning 

 

now have a guess why I needed to look into this...

 

what I would like know is: to what extent did Schnitzer crib design details from the works engines in combustion chamber, port and cam shape design ?

 

R.E.

Edited by Rudernst, 21 October 2014 - 14:32.

[Allen Brown]

I hadn't looked at 1973 because I thought only March had factory BMWs so everything else was a Schnitzer.  In 1974, Autosport's new car announcements and race reports make it pretty clear that the only non-March factory BMWs were Team Harper's engines which had been transferred from March 742s into Chevron B27s and a "works BMW engine" in the Surtees TS15 EXP.  Everyone else, including the Surtees TS15As, the Baty Chevron B27, the Pierre Robert GRD 273 and of course the whole Alpine team had Schnitzer engines.  Well, so far anyway; I am only up to June.

 

The only addition to this list came at the end of the season where the Osella team's new F2 car appeared and, judging by which side the inlet was, they had works BMW engines.  I had a quick look at 1975 and then there were plenty of works engines in non-March cars.

 

I also had a look at French hillclimbs where it appears all the early BMWs - from Maublanc's Chevron B25 onwards - were Schnitzer units.  Maublanc even had Schnitzer engines in the first two 742s that he ordered.  After that, I'm not so sure.

[Allen Brown]

I also had a look at French hillclimbs where it appears all the early BMWs - from Maublanc's Chevron B25 onwards - were Schnitzer units.  Maublanc even had Schnitzer engines in the first two 742s that he ordered.  After that, I'm not so sure.

 

I read a bit further.  I knew Maublanc had bought a brand new 742-Schnitzer for 1974 but almost immediately he sold this and bought another.  I just saw a picture of that in Echappement and the inlet is on the other side.  So having sold Schnitzers to his customers, he got a works BMW for himself.

[Duc-Man]

I have to dig this up again because of an argument elsewhere. I hope it is close enough on topic.

The M12/13 F-1 engines were supposed to build out of old engines from junkyards or from 20 year old unused blocks they had lying around, depending on who tells the story.

It makes no sense to me at all for various reasons:

a) why should they buy engines with unknown history from a junkyard when they have test stands where they can create a history that is in their favour?

b) BMW was in the 1960s not in an financial situation that they could afford to have engine blocks lying around since they just escaped bancruptcy.

c) the argument of 'seasoning' through the cold/hot change through the day. Munich has a high/low difference of ca. 30°C through the year. I learned a bit about metallurgy in my education and you need higher temperatures to get any effect.

d) I can`t remember reading anywhere anything reliable that underpins this story.

I know the design was based on the M10 an I think I remember a statement from an important person at BMW Motorsort at the time who called that story made up bullshit. Possibly Paul Rosche himself.

 

Can anybody here provide something that either proofs or disproofs it?

[Michael Ferner]

It's a story for those who want to believe it.

[Tim Murray]

Here’s what Doug Nye wrote in History of the Grand Prix Car 1966-85:

... Rosche’s men found that a brand new block casting was inadequately stress-relieved for their purposes and preferred well-run blocks with 100,000-odd road kilometres on them as ideally relaxed and stable. An artificial ageing process was therefore applied.

Ian Bamsey wrote in The 1000 BHP Grand Prix Cars:

... BMW Motorsport used essentially ‘stock’ blocks treated via a heat and chemical process to relieve inherent stresses. During the Formula Two days the company had sometimes instead employed well run in (around 100,000km) examples.

The question then becomes: what was the heat and chemical process used to stress-relieve the blocks? Here’s what f1steveuk posted in this earlier thread on racing myths:

Going back to the original post, it was Paul Rosche himself who told me the story about the early BMW F1 turbo engines, while making a documentry about F1 engine development, and added a bit about the technicians all going outside to pee on the already rusting blocks.

I recently heard the story repeated by Chris Barry in his series on Discovery Channel, not that any of that makes it true!

The original post mentioned by Steve contained this quote from Racecar Engineering:

One of the enduring stories regarding the M12/13 is that they were built around high mileage road car engines. The tale goes that the engineers discovered that blocks that had spent a long life racking up miles in road cars were wonderfully stress relieved. This gave a longer racing life under the extreme pressures of turbocharging. Reports claimed BMW's M Sport engineers were to be found frequenting Munich scrapyards to source well-used blocks from BMW saloons.
Ulrich Baretsky of Audi Motorsport worked on BMW's Formula 1 engines in the early 1980's and rolls his eyes at the suggestion: 'We kept being asked this' he recalls, 'and it wasn't true. But Paul Rosche became curious, so we tried it.' They built up an engine around an old road car block and tested it on the dyno to see what would happen. 'It didn't even get warm before it blew up,' recalls Baretzky.
Where the story came from, then, is obscured in the mists of time, but it was probably the work of an overzealous PR representative or a journalist letting his imagination run away with a snippet of information picked up during an interview. It was definitely not from spying on BMW engineers cruising Munich scrapyards.

[Allen Brown]

Ah yes, I remember that "chemical process" being mentioned.  

 

The point of motorsport to a manufacturer is to sell cars, and the suggestion that a BMW engine is only just "run in" when it reaches 100,000 km may have more to do with selling cars.  

[BRG]

You people!  First it was that lovely story about scraping the paint off the Silver Arrows that you debunk, now the BMW pee-ed upon old road car block story.  YOu'll be telling us that Santa Claus is a myth next.

[Duc-Man]

Thank you Tim.

 

The heat and chemical treatments should be tempering and most likely the nitriding of the cylinders.

If you harden steel it becomes hard and brittle like glas, characteristics cast iron has as well. Than you temper the part to reduce the hardness and brittleness again and gain toughness instead.

Nitriding the cylinders would give the cylinder a hard surface then again.

Characteristics you want of an engine block.

 

Leaving it out in the weather and pissing on it might work for a hillbilly...placebo-effect...but not in reality.

Edited by Duc-Man, 21 January 2019 - 09:19.

[Michael Ferner]

You people!  First it was that lovely story about scraping the paint off the Silver Arrows that you debunk, now the BMW pee-ed upon old road car block story.  YOu'll be telling us that Santa Claus is a myth next.

Dear Mr. Green (or may I call you British), you have to be very strong now...

[7MGTEsup]

You people!  First it was that lovely story about scraping the paint off the Silver Arrows that you debunk, now the BMW pee-ed upon old road car block story.  YOu'll be telling us that Santa Claus is a myth next.

 

Next thing they will be telling us they didn't make 1500hp......

[Doug Nye]

Once upon a time a plausible corporate PR type fed the naive and gullible press a load of what proved more likely to have been utter BS.

 

Today that is regarded as a job made their own by elected politicians.

 

DCN

[Duc-Man]

Next thing they will be telling us they didn't make 1500hp......

 

I think I can calm you down.

The 1500hp is a legend that will propably never be proven or disproven. BMW themself had at the time appearently a dyno that could meassure max. 1250 or 1300hp and the engines went over that max. So they say.

I doubt very much that somebody who ownes one of those engines will risk destroying it on a dyno just to see how much hp it makes.

 

BTW: does anybody know a dyno that can actually take so much power?

[Lee Nicolle]

I think I can calm you down.

The 1500hp is a legend that will propably never be proven or disproven. BMW themself had at the time appearently a dyno that could meassure max. 1250 or 1300hp and the engines went over that max. So they say.

I doubt very much that somebody who ownes one of those engines will risk destroying it on a dyno just to see how much hp it makes.

 

BTW: does anybody know a dyno that can actually take so much power?

In period the quoted number was initially 800 then 900 and in the end a qualifying engine was 1300. Two lap special. Give it another 10 years and it will be 2300!

In period I do not know about engine dynos though I suspect that there were some. And taking educated guess as well.

These days we hear 2000-2500 for Drag race engines and 900 for Nascar or Sprintcar engines.

HP though is only a number. A Nascar engine turns 9500 with a single 4bbl style intake. And do 500 mile races

A Sprinter at 410ci has 8 2 9/16 injectors and are 14-1 + comp. And turns 8800. And may if you are lucky do 20 shows

Twin turbo stock block drag LS are making a real 1400. Though in reality last at best a few hundred km.

And there is chassis dynos supposed to be 2500 hp. That I take with a boulder of salt however.

[Lee Nicolle]

Thank you Tim.

 

The heat and chemical treatments should be tempering and most likely the nitriding of the cylinders.

If you harden steel it becomes hard and brittle like glas, characteristics cast iron has as well. Than you temper the part to reduce the hardness and brittleness again and gain toughness instead.

Nitriding the cylinders would give the cylinder a hard surface then again.

Characteristics you want of an engine block.

 

Leaving it out in the weather and pissing on it might work for a hillbilly...placebo-effect...but not in reality.

Leaving semi machined blocks and castings in general has been a proven method of ageing the iron. Perkins did it and maybe still do. Reputedly and this has been around for 40 years that BMW did it on what was a production based engine and probably the last one ever to be used in F1.

As I have been told by someone in F1 in the period they were special castings, no doubt better material, hi nickel or similar, and probably thicker cylinder walls and decks. But were left in the weather for some months.

As is well known a freshly cast iron block for a racing engine should be at the very best heat treated to relieve the block.In an oven for several hours. Though ageing works as well. If not better. Or as many how to engine books say use the engine in your shop truck, road car or whatever. And that is probably the best but then you have to change all the machining

[Duc-Man]

Leaving semi machined blocks and castings in general has been a proven method of ageing the iron. Perkins did it and maybe still do. Reputedly and this has been around for 40 years that BMW did it on what was a production based engine and probably the last one ever to be used in F1.

As I have been told by someone in F1 in the period they were special castings, no doubt better material, hi nickel or similar, and probably thicker cylinder walls and decks. But were left in the weather for some months.

As is well known a freshly cast iron block for a racing engine should be at the very best heat treated to relieve the block.In an oven for several hours. Though ageing works as well. If not better. Or as many how to engine books say use the engine in your shop truck, road car or whatever. And that is probably the best but then you have to change all the machining

 

I just had a look what kind of engines Perkins builds. The strongest one they have at the moment is 812 hp out of 18 litres! Leaving a block sitting for some time might have an positive effect in such a case, maybe also with a performance engine that puts out 2 times the power of the stock engine. The M12/13 produced 6 to (possibly) 10 times the power of the strongest n.a. M10 engine. Stock blocks surviving such a beating?

Another factor: natural ageing takes time. How long does it take and did BMW have that long?

Working in a car factory I know engine blocks will sit for a while between being delivered, being machined and being assembled. Depending on how variable the production line is as in different engine types, I can imagine that can be month.

About though ageing: do the how to engine books also say something about the milage? Suiting up a well run in engine for a rallye or touring car sounds reasonable to me...30+ years ago in the high time of Gr.A.

Apart from the TCR cars, are there today any competition cars using 'production' engines?

[Ray Bell]

Was Lee talking about Perkins diesels?

Or about Larry Perkins' race engines?

[Duc-Man]

Was Lee talking about Perkins diesels?

Or about Larry Perkins' race engines?

Oh...I didn't know about Larry Perkins.

I just googled 'perkins engines' and he isn't mentioned on the first 5 pages with results...

[Ray Bell]

Lee will be around here in the morning...

No doubt he will let us know.

[BRG]

Apart from the TCR cars, are there today any competition cars using 'production' engines?

It depends on where you draw the line between genuine stock/production engines and racing motors.  How much modification renders an engine non-production? 

 

But using production engines as a basis is still pretty common.  NASCAR and all its deriviatives surely do, as do Aussis supercars.  All the GT racers do (so that's 60% or so of the Le Mans entry for instance) and most touring car formulae do as well.  There are still a number of single seater series, I believe, that use production engines.  ALL rally cars running to FIA rules use production engines.   Then there are the one-make race series, but that is self evident so we can disregard those.