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Three-car teams: a proposal for young drivers


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#1 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 12:42

If, as a lot of people afre thinking, we get 3 car teams in the next few years, maybe they could provide a route for younger drivers by bring in a young driver rule.

 

The GP2 champion would get  the 3rd car of the F1 WCC

The winner of WSR would get the 3rd car of the F! runner up

The winner of GP3 would get the 3rd car seat of the 3rd place team

The F3 champion would get the 4th place team 3rd car

 

then the runner up in each championship would get the 3rd car of theams from 5th down to 8th in F1

 

That way there's a clear reason for winning GP2 and WSR, instead of ending up in limbo.

 

Yes, I know there's be a few sponsorship issues, if for example Alex Lynn wound up at Ferrari, cos he;s backed by Red Bull, but drivers are placed in other teams now, so I don't see that as a major issue. I'm sure there are other issues to overcome, but at least there's a clear ladder if the teams were forced into this



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#2 noikeee

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 12:55

Unworkable, terrible idea, next.



#3 Gorma

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 12:56

A lot seem to think/hope that these third seats in top teams would go to deserving drivers, but I think the opposite will happen. The two seats for sure will be filled with top drivers, but the third seats will likely go to moneybag drivers. Imagine the amount of money that PDVSA would pay for a Ferrari seat. Normally there would never be a seat open to Maldonado, but in this case PDVSA could fork out 40-50 million euros for the added visibility. 



#4 cheekybru

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:01

If, as a lot of people afre thinking, we get 3 car teams in the next few years, maybe they could provide a route for younger drivers by bring in a young driver rule.

 

The GP2 champion would get  the 3rd car of the F1 WCC

The winner of WSR would get the 3rd car of the F! runner up

The winner of GP3 would get the 3rd car seat of the 3rd place team

The F3 champion would get the 4th place team 3rd car

 

then the runner up in each championship would get the 3rd car of theams from 5th down to 8th in F1

 

That way there's a clear reason for winning GP2 and WSR, instead of ending up in limbo.

 

Yes, I know there's be a few sponsorship issues, if for example Alex Lynn wound up at Ferrari, cos he;s backed by Red Bull, but drivers are placed in other teams now, so I don't see that as a major issue. I'm sure there are other issues to overcome, but at least there's a clear ladder if the teams were forced into this

 

 

And what happens the year after? They are all booted out again to make room for next years class? :drunk:   :stoned:  :drunk:



#5 TimRTC

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:08

If F3 and GP3 champions get auto-seats, what is the purpose of GP2 or FR3.5?

 

"A few sponsorship issues"  - running a third car will add massive costs - drivers might be able to find themselves in F3 with family money, but they may well come to F1 with no sponsors, will the team have to fund the third car entirely themselves.

 

Expect to see the majority of F1 teams fold...



#6 Kraken

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:13

In the main they would just go to the driver that has the biggest budget regardless of how good he or she is.



#7 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:25

And what happens the year after? They are all booted out again to make room for next years class? :drunk:   :stoned:  :drunk:

yes, if they don't perform. If they do, then they'll have a chance to get into another team or the main 2 seats of their current team



#8 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:26

In the main they would just go to the driver that has the biggest budget regardless of how good he or she is.

which is why this idea should happen, that way it reduces the chances of the 3rd seat being bought by the Chiltons of this world



#9 EthanM

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:27

who's gonna pay for all that? Bernie?



#10 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:30

If F3 and GP3 champions get auto-seats, what is the purpose of GP2 or FR3.5?

 

"A few sponsorship issues"  - running a third car will add massive costs - drivers might be able to find themselves in F3 with family money, but they may well come to F1 with no sponsors, will the team have to fund the third car entirely themselves.

 

Expect to see the majority of F1 teams fold...

The teams should get more money from FOM if they run a 3rd car.

 

You could ask what's the point of any series when you get a 17 year old with 1 year car experience getting into F1.

With my idea the GP2 champion gets a seat with a higher ranked team than the GP3 champion, so that's the reason for doing it. If it happened next year, Palmer would be in a Merc whereas Lynn would more anonymous in a Force India, so being GP2 champion is better than GP3



#11 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:31

who's gonna pay for all that? Bernie?

well he has to pay the teams extra for running a 3rd car, doesn't he?



#12 Fastcake

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:33

which is why this idea should happen, that way it reduces the chances of the 3rd seat being bought by the Chiltons of this world


Which will just mean the first two cars will be occupied by Chiltons. Maybe literally, if Tom asks his father nicely for Christmas.

#13 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:38

Which will just mean the first two cars will be occupied by Chiltons. Maybe literally, if Tom asks his father nicely for Christmas.

but at least it gives the GP2 and WSR champions a shot at a season of F1 rather than disappearing off to America of into sportscars or whatever. If these drivers don't get a chance of F1 what is the point of GP2/3, WSR Etc. we might as well do away with those championships altogether.



#14 Clatter

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:45

If, as a lot of people afre thinking, we get 3 car teams in the next few years, maybe they could provide a route for younger drivers by bring in a young driver rule.

 

The GP2 champion would get  the 3rd car of the F1 WCC

The winner of WSR would get the 3rd car of the F! runner up

The winner of GP3 would get the 3rd car seat of the 3rd place team

The F3 champion would get the 4th place team 3rd car

 

then the runner up in each championship would get the 3rd car of theams from 5th down to 8th in F1

 

That way there's a clear reason for winning GP2 and WSR, instead of ending up in limbo.

 

Yes, I know there's be a few sponsorship issues, if for example Alex Lynn wound up at Ferrari, cos he;s backed by Red Bull, but drivers are placed in other teams now, so I don't see that as a major issue. I'm sure there are other issues to overcome, but at least there's a clear ladder if the teams were forced into this

Why should the GP3 champion get an automatic F1 seat. If GP2 is a stepping stone to F1, then GP3 is the stepping stone to GP2.



#15 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:49

Why should the GP3 champion get an automatic F1 seat. If GP2 is a stepping stone to F1, then GP3 is the stepping stone to GP2.

see my post above (#10)



#16 EthanM

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 13:53

well he has to pay the teams extra for running a 3rd car, doesn't he?

 

50% more? Cause the teams will need 50% more personnel at the track, 50% more parts, 50% more engines yadda yadda yadda

 

Yes Bernie will need to give those teams that end up running a 3rd car a bigger slice by no way will he run Bernie's young driver academy off his own pocket



#17 sabjit

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:01

If we are going to be giving out guaranteed seats only the GP2 champ should get one with a lower end team.

The GP3 prize should be a GP2 seat. Since WSR and F3 don't follow the F1 circuit they should provide tests as prizes (which I believe they already do)

#18 TimRTC

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:02

but at least it gives the GP2 and WSR champions a shot at a season of F1 rather than disappearing off to America of into sportscars or whatever.

 

Oh no, they might end up in a competitive and interesting racing series. The horror :eek:



#19 Clatter

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:12

see my post above (#10)

That doesn't answer my question. I'd say the 2nd place driver in GP2 is more worthy of an F1 seat than the GP3 champion.



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#20 kraduk

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:18

THe more and more I think about all the problems f1 has, the more i realize they are caused by the fact that it is F1. If you want the best racing and the best drivers to get to the top purely on driving talent, then you need to be a spec series with no teams, just drivers and their stock equipment. I realise there will be problems but they wont be as hard to solve as the problems F1 has now. Then have a promotion and relegation from the relevant classes.



#21 pdac

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:21

Teams are independent businesses. They will hire whatever drivers they think will bring the most to the team financially (that may be a simple pay-driver thing, via sposorship deals, via prize money, whatever). They are not going to pay for someone they don't want.

 

Bernie is there as the commercial rights holder. His job is to sell the sport and make money. He's not going to pay someone just to take a driver that they don't want. Why should he?

 

The only people that might like to see this are the FIA and they are not going to pay either.



#22 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:29

That doesn't answer my question. I'd say the 2nd place driver in GP2 is more worthy of an F1 seat than the GP3 champion.

and he/she gets a drive in a higher ranking team



#23 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:32

Teams are independent businesses. They will hire whatever drivers they think will bring the most to the team financially (that may be a simple pay-driver thing, via sposorship deals, via prize money, whatever). They are not going to pay for someone they don't want.

 

Bernie is there as the commercial rights holder. His job is to sell the sport and make money. He's not going to pay someone just to take a driver that they don't want. Why should he?

 

The only people that might like to see this are the FIA and they are not going to pay either.

but if the teams are forced into producing a 3rd car, someone has to pay the teams for it. Prize money is based on 2 cars, if there are 3 then prize money should be increased



#24 Collective

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:43

but at least it gives the GP2 and WSR champions a shot at a season of F1 rather than disappearing off to America of into sportscars or whatever. If these drivers don't get a chance of F1 what is the point of GP2/3, WSR Etc. we might as well do away with those championships altogether.

 

They don't get a chance because they don't deserve one. There is nothing impressive about staying for four or five years in a series to finally win it on experience. There are way better prospects then the Palmers, Leimers and Valsecchis of the world, and those are the ones getting the good seats. 


Edited by Collective, 20 October 2014 - 14:44.


#25 Jon83

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:47

No thanks



#26 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:49

They don't get a chance because they don't deserve one. There is nothing impressive about staying for four or five years in a series to finally win it on experience. There are way better prospects then the Palmers, Leimers and Valsecchis of the world, and those are the ones getting the good seats. 

And Chiltopn, Maldanardo et al do?

 

There has to be a point to GP2 and WSR, or why have the series. If winning them doesn't get you promoted, why bother?



#27 Collective

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:54

And Chiltopn, Maldanardo et al do?

 

There has to be a point to GP2 and WSR, or why have the series. If winning them doesn't get you promoted, why bother?

 

Maldonado at least has always been fast, if error prone, certainly faster than the three I mentioned. Chilton? Ericsson, GutiƩrrez? Probably not, which is why they have to pay to drive the worst available cars.

 

But if you look closely, both GutiĆ©rrez and Chilton beat Leimer and Palmer in 2012, second season for the four of them (actually, THIRD for Leimer), so... no, no chance deserved, but they can pay for one the way the others did. 

 

If winning GP2 on the fourth try isn't exciting F1 teams, then GP2 has something to fix, not F1 teams' problem.


Edited by Collective, 20 October 2014 - 14:56.


#28 Clatter

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:55

and he/she gets a drive in a higher ranking team

Think you are still missing the point..



#29 Clatter

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:58

And Chiltopn, Maldanardo et al do?

 

There has to be a point to GP2 and WSR, or why have the series. If winning them doesn't get you promoted, why bother?

WSR is advertising for Renault. GP2 makes money for BE. There doesn't have to be any other point. 



#30 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:58

Maldonado at least has always been fast, if error prone, certainly faster than the three I mentioned. Chilton? Ericsson, GutiƩrrez? Probably not, which is why they have to pay to drive the worst available cars.

 

But if you look closely, both GutiĆ©rrez and Chilton beat Leimer and Palmer in 2012, second season for the four of them (actually, THIRD for Leimer), so... no, no chance deserved, but they can pay for one the way the others did. 

does it matter how experienced a driver is? If they win the championship then they must have some amount of skill and 3 car teams should give them a chance. I don't understand all the negativity towards the lower series, all I'm saying is give the drivers who win, a chance at competing in F1, if they prove themselves, they'll get a more permanent drive, if they show themselves to be complete numpties, they;ll be out after a year



#31 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:59

Think you are still missing the point..

then make it clearer



#32 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 14:59

WSR is advertising for Renault. GP2 makes money for BE. There doesn't have to be any other point. 

there does if you're a driver.



#33 Clatter

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 15:03

there does if you're a driver.

And they get a chance to showcase their talent, if they are considered good enough then they will get picked up. 



#34 charly0418

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 15:07

Imagine having Valsecchi and Leimer in a Red Bull right now

 

 

Rather shoot myself



#35 Collective

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 15:11

does it matter how experienced a driver is? If they win the championship then they must have some amount of skill and 3 car teams should give them a chance. I don't understand all the negativity towards the lower series, all I'm saying is give the drivers who win, a chance at competing in F1, if they prove themselves, they'll get a more permanent drive, if they show themselves to be complete numpties, they;ll be out after a year

It's an indication of whether or not they will be competitive right away. But like I said, if a driver is really outstanding, he'll get promoted: Kvyat, Ricciardo, JEV, Magnussen, Bottas, Verstappen all have. Pretty sure Vandoorne, Ocon and a few others will get the call too. Folks mugging around for years in lower series? Meh.  



#36 Rinehart

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 15:24

If only there were healthy, sustainable grids in all categories where there is so much competition that a promotion/relegation of TEAMS between F1/GP2/GP3 etc would be workable.

 

But the OP is basically calling for promotion/relegation of the PLAYERS. (Yes if you keep guaranteeing graduates each year, eventually you gotta make room for them)...

 

Daft. And it would work against the whole notion of teams young driver academies/contrats...

 

So nope. 

 

The best rule for the 3rd car would be no driver older than 21.



#37 BadVoice

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 15:29

3 car will never happen, why are people bringing it up? 



#38 dweller23

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 15:30

Interestingly, some Kubica-related rumours started to pop up here and there, I would imagine that if anyone was to hire him it would be only if there were three cars in the field.



#39 Vepe1995

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 15:38

then make it clearer

If I may...

 

The open wheel series in Europe form a ladder to F1.

 

First ones below F1 are GP2 and WSbR 3.5

Below those is GP3

Below GP3 there's F3 and FR2.0

 

For this ladder to work properly, there should be no skipping over steps, right? From F3 to GP3 to GP2 to F1?

 

Your system places winning the GP3 (and even F3) championship higher that being the runner up in GP2 or WSbR.

 

So the question is WHY is winning the GP3 (or F3) championship more valuable than being the runner up in GP2 or WSbR?

 

 

And some other points and questions...

 

This doesn't solve the "issue" of pay drivers. If a team needs money, they'll get a pay driver(s).

 

This also doesn't mean that the driver promoted to F1 are "worthy". What if the GP2 champion has been driving in GP2 at the back end of the grid, as a pay driver, for 10 seasons and by a fluke happens to win the championship?

 

Also, which F3 champion gets the seat? The F3 champion of Chile? And why did you ignore FR2.0?

 

Also, where are IndyCar, Indy Lights, Super Formula? F1 is global sport, you know...

 

And what about non-open wheelers? Just because they're not formula cars, doesn't mean the drivers don't want to race in F1.

 

Short version: No, not going to work.



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#40 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 16:21

If I may...

 

The open wheel series in Europe form a ladder to F1.

 

First ones below F1 are GP2 and WSbR 3.5

Below those is GP3

Below GP3 there's F3 and FR2.0

 

For this ladder to work properly, there should be no skipping over steps, right? From F3 to GP3 to GP2 to F1?

 

Your system places winning the GP3 (and even F3) championship higher that being the runner up in GP2 or WSbR.

 

So the question is WHY is winning the GP3 (or F3) championship more valuable than being the runner up in GP2 or WSbR?

 

the idea isn't set in stone, if it was found that the runner up in GP2 was more worthy than the GP3 champion, then they should get the higher drive, or maybe open it up even more and only have the GP3 champion and runner up guaranteed seats in GP2, that's all cool

 

 

And some other points and questions...

 

This doesn't solve the "issue" of pay drivers. If a team needs money, they'll get a pay driver(s).

They've still got 2 other seats

 

This also doesn't mean that the driver promoted to F1 are "worthy". What if the GP2 champion has been driving in GP2 at the back end of the grid, as a pay driver, for 10 seasons and by a fluke happens to win the championship?

Luck of the draw, the F1 champion isn't always the most worthy

 

Also, which F3 champion gets the seat? The F3 champion of Chile? And why did you ignore FR2.0?

 

Also, where are IndyCar, Indy Lights, Super Formula? F1 is global sport, you know...

Fine, include other catagories, that's not a problem - all that needs to be done is to decide which series deserves which drive

 

And what about non-open wheelers? Just because they're not formula cars, doesn't mean the drivers don't want to race in F1.

See above

 

Short version: No, not going to work.



#41 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 18:03

The 3rd car should be for a rookie irrespective of whether they're champion or not in any lower category and not for another experienced driver to bolster that particular team's lineup. Only the teams 2 regular drivers should score points for the constructors championship.  

 

Going offtopic slightly, I think that FP1 should be for rookies only to let them get experience of the current cars and a GP weekend. OK, they'll need to work through the team's testing requirements in that session rather than just having a free-for-all blast.......if the regular drivers cannot learn a circuit in FP2 & FP3 before Quali, they have no place in F1.



#42 Disgrace

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 21:45

Just to avoid some confusion based on feedback: here is the three-car team thread. This thread should be used to discuss this specific proposal and speculate how junior formulae could be affected.



#43 Clatter

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 23:51

The 3rd car should be for a rookie irrespective of whether they're champion or not in any lower category and not for another experienced driver to bolster that particular team's lineup. Only the teams 2 regular drivers should score points for the constructors championship.  

 

Going offtopic slightly, I think that FP1 should be for rookies only to let them get experience of the current cars and a GP weekend. OK, they'll need to work through the team's testing requirements in that session rather than just having a free-for-all blast.......if the regular drivers cannot learn a circuit in FP2 & FP3 before Quali, they have no place in F1.

So after one season the 3rd driver is automatically dumped or another member has to be sacked to make way for them regardless of how well they perform? Ridiculous.

 

Do you seriously think thats what FP is for?



#44 Kraken

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 07:18

And Chiltopn, Maldanardo et al do?

 

There has to be a point to GP2 and WSR, or why have the series. If winning them doesn't get you promoted, why bother?

Maldonado won the GP2 championship so he would still be in F1 under your guidelines.

 

It's not as simple as saying the winner should automatically get a seat. Factors like how good were their team (massively important in one make series) and what sort of luck did they have need to be taken into account. 



#45 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 11:31

So after one season the 3rd driver is automatically dumped or another member has to be sacked to make way for them regardless of how well they perform? Ridiculous.

 

Do you seriously think thats what FP is for?

After one season the 3rd (rookie) driver is left to find their own way, if they've shown themselves to be competitive, they'll probably land a seat with another team or the team they're with, if they've been 1/2 a second off their team-mates, then they;ll either have to buy a drive or disappear to Indycar or Sportscars 



#46 purplehaireddolphin

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 11:36

Maldonado won the GP2 championship so he would still be in F1 under your guidelines.

 

It's not as simple as saying the winner should automatically get a seat. Factors like how good were their team (massively important in one make series) and what sort of luck did they have need to be taken into account. 

But it is as simple as that. I'd forgotten that Maldonado had won it. If a driver wins a championship in a lower series, they deserve a promotion, whether it was a lucky championship or not. If they then prove capable of matching their team-mates, they may well be able to find a regular seat for the next few years, if they show that they're out of their depth, then after 1 season, they'll likely be out, just the same as any other driver



#47 anneomoly

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 15:44

A lot seem to think/hope that these third seats in top teams would go to deserving drivers, but I think the opposite will happen. The two seats for sure will be filled with top drivers, but the third seats will likely go to moneybag drivers. Imagine the amount of money that PDVSA would pay for a Ferrari seat. Normally there would never be a seat open to Maldonado, but in this case PDVSA could fork out 40-50 million euros for the added visibility. 

 

I think the biggest problem is that if you're going to run a 3rd driver and try and get youngsters into it (possibly age cap it?) I'm sure teams - especially bigger teams - would far prefer to run their own youngsters in it. But then you realise that the biggest teams that could afford a third car already run their kids in lower teams anyway (Ferrari with Massa/Perez/Bianchi, Red Bull with Toro Rosso but also with Ricciardo in HRT, and McLaren tried to put Magnussen somewhere else for this year) and presumably pay to keep those teams going in a more cost effective way for them than a third car.

 

Maldonado at least has always been fast, if error prone, certainly faster than the three I mentioned. Chilton? Ericsson, GutiƩrrez? Probably not, which is why they have to pay to drive the worst available cars.

 

But if you look closely, both GutiĆ©rrez and Chilton beat Leimer and Palmer in 2012, second season for the four of them (actually, THIRD for Leimer), so... no, no chance deserved, but they can pay for one the way the others did. 

 

If winning GP2 on the fourth try isn't exciting F1 teams, then GP2 has something to fix, not F1 teams' problem.

 

Well, not really. GP2 is meant to be a feeder series. The aim of a feeder series is to impress and move up. If F1 teams can't tell the difference between a driver winning on the fifth go around and a rookie coming second, they're probably hiring the wrong people for more than drives.

 

It's an indication of whether or not they will be competitive right away. But like I said, if a driver is really outstanding, he'll get promoted: Kvyat, Ricciardo, JEV, Magnussen, Bottas, Verstappen all have. Pretty sure Vandoorne, Ocon and a few others will get the call too. Folks mugging around for years in lower series? Meh.  

 

...is it not a bit worrying that Red Bull are sponsoring about half the kids with talent out there, and the rest of them you listed (except Bottas?) are all backed by F1 teams? I know RBR have got a high wastage rate, but it makes me wonder why other big commercial backing and genuine talent never seem to match up.



#48 Otaku

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 17:16

Stop with this 3-car teams crap already!! 



#49 Kraken

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 20:34

Just aren't enough seats for this to work. We know drivers can go on until their mid 30's at least and they're starting younger and younger.



#50 Collective

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Posted 21 October 2014 - 21:09

Well, not really. GP2 is meant to be a feeder series. The aim of a feeder series is to impress and move up. If F1 teams can't tell the difference between a driver winning on the fifth go around and a rookie coming second, they're probably hiring the wrong people for more than drives.

They can, and that's why Leimer, Palmer, et al have no drives and Verstappen, Magnussen, et al do.