Jump to content


Photo
* - - - - 4 votes

Did Jenson cause Honda to lose face in 2009?


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
68 replies to this topic

#1 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 5,818 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 22 October 2014 - 10:42

It’s starting to look as though Jenson won’t be a McLaren-Honda driver next year. What could save his career? Winning the next 3 races? I’m beginning to suspect that not even that would do the job for him.

When we first heard that Honda were partnering with McLaren, there was a general assumption that Jenson’s previous working relationship with Honda would stand him in good stead. When you combine that with his consistent outscoring of his team-mates, his easy-going personality, and his continuing physical fitness and good form, who would have bet against him being in the team?

We’ve been hearing a lot of rumours that it’s Honda who have been pushing for a change of driver lineup. I can understand them going for Alonso, but why wouldn’t they want Jenson there as well, scoring a lot of points and making the WCC much more likely? We’ve even heard that Honda wanted to replace both drivers, which would guarantee that Jenson wouldn’t be there.

Honda know Jenson can do the job, he won the WDC in one of their cars. And maybe that’s the problem, because the car wasn’t badged as Honda, and didn’t have a Honda engine.

When Honda made it possible for the team to continue, thereby saving a lot of jobs, it was intended as a charitable act. It was supposed to make Honda look like good guys, not stupid guys.
 



Advertisement

#2 RubalSher

RubalSher
  • Member

  • 3,944 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 22 October 2014 - 10:46

Winning a title does not guarantee that you will forever be a top driver. As drivers age, there comes a time when performances start to drop and his age and lack of stellar performances may be a reason why Honda do not want to continue with him anymore.



#3 sofarapartguy

sofarapartguy
  • Member

  • 1,267 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 22 October 2014 - 10:51

Honda must understand that Brawn would never win titles in 2009 had it not be for Merc engines. So basically sucess wa not fully because of superb car. 



#4 ButtonForEver

ButtonForEver
  • Member

  • 369 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 22 October 2014 - 10:52

Rumor has it that Honda would like: Button - Alonso, taking Magnussen as 3rd rider. 

 
In my opinion there are problems related to their salary (which would be high).
 
In my opinion if someone doesn't want to confirm Button is in the McLaren team, and not in Honda...


#5 MikeMM

MikeMM
  • Member

  • 884 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 22 October 2014 - 10:53

Winning a title does not guarantee that you will forever be a top driver. As drivers age, there comes a time when performances start to drop and his age and lack of stellar performances may be a reason why Honda do not want to continue with him anymore.

This season Button has beaten Magnussen convincingly.

Alonso is only one year younger than Button.

Do we really need another thread about Mclaren drivers for 2015?



#6 MikeMM

MikeMM
  • Member

  • 884 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 22 October 2014 - 10:55

Honda must understand that Brawn would never win titles in 2009 had it not be for Merc engines. So basically sucess wa not fully because of superb car. 

With Honda engine and Honda money for R&D in 2009 Brawn would still have won both titles.



#7 onewingedangel

onewingedangel
  • Member

  • 1,591 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:02

Regarding the Brawn Honda>Mercedes engine change in 2009 it was probably of little benefit. The adaptations needed to fit the Mercedes raised the COG and hindered aerodynamics - although it was certainly more powerful, drivable and cooler running than the 2008 specification Honda. Of course, Honda may have got the same dispensation as Renault to make changes to their engine, although in fairness Toyota didn't seem to get any breaks despite being behind the Renault PU.

 

In regards to the topics title, it wasn't Jenson that caused Honda to look foolish. Honda knew they had a more competitive car for 2009, but no-one could have known how competitive. And if Honda had not withdrawn then, they would have had to invest probably another billion into the sport between 2009 and 2014.

 

Retrospectively, you have to say that would have been justified had they won the title considering how much they (and others) spent chasing a victory let alone a title, but in context, for a manufacturer as relatively small as Honda they could not possibly have justified any extravagant spending in the face of a worldwide recession.

 

Just look at how Toyota withdrew a year later with a podium capable car, and Toyota are several times the size of Honda. F1 was a luxury that was hard to justify if it was not part of the companies core business.

 

There has been plenty to criticise Honda's road car business for in the past 15 years where they have seemed to lose their previous mojo, but as much as it hurt many within Honda to withdraw from F1 in 2009, and as competitive as the RA109 may have been, you can't really say it was the wrong decision when their company was facing very real peril.


Edited by onewingedangel, 22 October 2014 - 11:17.


#8 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 23,156 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:20

This forum is getting dumber by the day.

 

Yeah Honda is all jealous and vindictive and have a Jenson voodoo doll in the office.



#9 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 17,874 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:21

Winning a title does not guarantee that you will forever be a top driver. As drivers age, there comes a time when performances start to drop and his age and lack of stellar performances may be a reason why Honda do not want to continue with him anymore.

 

Perhaps read the opening post next time you open a thread.



#10 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 17,874 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:25

Honda lost face in 2007/2008 and they did it all by themselves. If anything, Jenson brought Honda their first victory in 40 years. I don't think Honda is pissed because their design won with another engine. Well it couldn't have been too easy for them, but like noikeee says I don't think they have a Jenson voodoo doll in the office.



#11 DainBramaged

DainBramaged
  • Member

  • 214 posts
  • Joined: May 14

Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:27

C'mon now. Do you really believe that Honda blame Button because he won a world championship in a car that Honda designed and was meant to be theirs and the only reason it wasn't was because Honda pulled out of the sport? Seems a bit far fetched to me. Honda were the ones who decided to pull out of the sport. They basically shafted the team, staff and drivers. Would they have been upset that if they'd stayed in the sport another year they would probably been world champions? I would imagine so, but blaming it on the driver and then punishing him 5/6 years later doesn't sound likely to me, in fact, it just sounds stupid. Even if they did blame Jenson for it, I would imagine if they felt he was the best option for them, they would go for it. Does anyone else actually believe that Honda wouldn't keep Button solely for this reason? Blaming the driver for winning in a car they designed but didn't run because they pulled out of the sport just seems bizarre to me. Why blame just the driver? As you say, they gave their blessing for the cars to be used by Brawn, plus there was a strong belief that it would be a good car.


Edited by DainBramaged, 22 October 2014 - 11:39.


#12 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 3,420 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:30

With Honda engine and Honda money for R&D in 2009 Brawn would still have won both titles.

 

Based on what? Their stellar 2007 and 2008 performances?



#13 petef1

petef1
  • Member

  • 95 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:31

Honda must understand that Brawn would never win titles in 2009 had it not be for Merc engines. So basically sucess wa not fully because of superb car. 

 

That is quite an assumption you make there; especially as they would have had works Honda engine and gearbox that were designed for the chassis, unlike the changes they had to make to accommodate the Mercedes. The Honda engine was no slouch either.

 

As another poser has already stated, in all likelihood, they would have still attained the world championships. The only thing we don't really know is would they have gone for the KERS or non-KERS BGP01 given they (Honda) built both. The former probably would have been a mistake from what history tells us, but I'm sure they would have worked that out through the pre-season testing programme.



#14 athlon

athlon
  • Member

  • 763 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:35

This article indicates that Honda blames JB for the awful 07-08 seasons

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/72330...

 

 

Based on what? Their stellar 2007 and 2008 performances?

 

Could you imagine that Honda was actually able to build an aerodynamically sublime car after 2007 and 2008. I have no doubts that RA109 would have been a superior car with Honda-powertrain.



#15 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 16,465 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:36

Perhaps read the opening post next time you open a thread.

I think RubalSher's post is quite a reasonable answer to that.



#16 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • Admin

  • 19,094 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:38

We’ve been hearing a lot of rumours that it’s Honda who have been pushing for a change of driver lineup.
 

Really have we?  Is it the same rumour regurgitated or different ones, and are they credible or merely speculation?

 

It might also be useful to consider how much of a say Honda has in this, because surely McLaren knows what's best when it comes to running a modern F1 team and Honda can't be blind to that.



#17 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 17,874 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:43

I think RubalSher's post is quite a reasonable answer to that.

 

This isn't a thread about Jenson's age or performance. There's already 3 other threads for that. BillBald's theorizing a new idea here on that there might be more going on in the background at Honda regarding their past experience with Jenson in Formula 1.



#18 hittheapex

hittheapex
  • Member

  • 1,193 posts
  • Joined: July 14

Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:49

With Honda engine and Honda money for R&D in 2009 Brawn would still have won both titles.

I'm not sure. For R and D and aero, maybe but I think this would be countered by an engine that wasn't the fastest in a straight line by the time the engine freeze came in and was one of the least reliable, I think the least reliable if my memory serves me correctly.

 

In response to the OP, if Button hadn't done it, Barrichello would have come close enough. Even if the title was just missed the questions of Honda would still have been asked and I think Honda recognise that. Or rather, if Button isn't there next year I don't believe it will be because of 2009. Honda had already made themselves look stupid on two counts. First, floundering in Q1 and Q2 with one of the biggest budgets in the pitlane from 2007-2008 and trying to make their F1 team an advertisement for the environment.


Edited by hittheapex, 22 October 2014 - 11:52.


#19 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 16,465 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:01

This isn't a thread about Jenson's age or performance. There's already 3 other threads for that. BillBald's theorizing a new idea here on that there might be more going on in the background at Honda regarding their past experience with Jenson in Formula 1.

And Rubal Sher gave a far more logical explanation.

 

If that's not allowed this thread should be merged because his answer should simply be part of the discussion.



Advertisement

#20 Force Ten

Force Ten
  • Member

  • 4,100 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:03

And Rubal Sher gave a far more logical explanation.

 

If that's not allowed this thread should be merged because his answer should simply be part of the discussion.

It's not really logical if it's not supported particulary well with facts in hand.



#21 FlitchPower

FlitchPower
  • Member

  • 80 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:04

It may simply be a case of here's 30 million hire Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel to lead the team. Doesn't necessarily mean Honda want somebody out, it may simply be a case of them wanting someone in and the rest is up to McLaren

#22 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 16,465 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:07

It's not really logical if it's not supported particulary well with facts in hand.

Well, it's more factual (see those other threads) than the OP's apparent fantasy.



#23 Force Ten

Force Ten
  • Member

  • 4,100 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:10

Well, it's more factual (see those other threads) than the OP's apparent fantasy.

That there are many threads about something doesn't make it factual. Being factual makes it factual.

Also, factual is really a binary state. It either is or isn't. Everything else is just opinions.



#24 HoldenRT

HoldenRT
  • Member

  • 6,773 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:21

Very hard to compare the 2008 or 2009 Honda engine either way.  All you can say for sure is that the Merc engine for Brawn certainly didn't hurt them and McLaren were already proving in earlier seasons that it was a strong engine.



#25 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 16,465 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:22

That there are many threads about something doesn't make it factual. Being factual makes it factual.

Also, factual is really a binary state. It either is or isn't. Everything else is just opinions.

Boullier has said that McLaren are looking for long term solutions.That's at least a fact.

 

Of course making sense of it in whatever way is a matter of opinion, but those opinions are at least based on the fact that Boullier has given us a cue.

 

While "Honda taking revenge on Button" is by my knowledge a pure assumption.



#26 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 5,818 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:23

This forum is getting dumber by the day.

 

Yeah Honda is all jealous and vindictive and have a Jenson voodoo doll in the office.

 

It's not about Honda having a Jenson doll, it's maybe just about them being a little bit uncomfortable about 2009, and not wanting to be reminded of it all the time.

 

All the pundits would be saying stuff like "Jenson driving a Honda again. Of course, he actually won the WDC in 2009 driving a Honda, but it was called a Brawn because Honda had withdrawn from F1. I wonder whether, in hindsight, they think that wasn't a very smart decision"

 

Honda had their own reasons for withdrawing, and quite possibly compelling ones. But it looks to many people as though they made a really bad decision, and perhaps Honda would like it to be forgotten as soon as possible.



#27 Force Ten

Force Ten
  • Member

  • 4,100 posts
  • Joined: April 99

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:29

Boullier has said that McLaren are looking for long term solutions.That's at least a fact.

 

Of course making sense of it in whatever way is a matter of opinion, but those opinions are at least based on the fact that Boullier has given us a cue.

 

While "Honda taking revenge on Button" is by my knowledge a pure assumption.

There is no indication that they are even close to finding one. The "aging driver" has shown no signs of losing performance no matter how many threads are written about it and the next Senna has shown no signs of becoming one any time soon. There hasn't even been a clear upwards trajectory. That's the thing with facts and opinions.



#28 FlitchPower

FlitchPower
  • Member

  • 80 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:33

It's not about Honda having a Jenson doll, it's maybe just about them being a little bit uncomfortable about 2009, and not wanting to be reminded of it all the time.

All the pundits would be saying stuff like "Jenson driving a Honda again. Of course, he actually won the WDC in 2009 driving a Honda, but it was called a Brawn because Honda had withdrawn from F1. I wonder whether, in hindsight, they think that wasn't a very smart decision"

Honda had their own reasons for withdrawing, and quite possibly compelling ones. But it looks to many people as though they made a really bad decision, and perhaps Honda would like it to be forgotten as soon as possible.


Business is seldom sentimental ... Besides, doubt Honda think they would have necessarily won 2009 as Honda ... Lets not forget Toyota also had a double diffuser car and didn't achieve very much, not to mention Willliams. I am sure in an alternate universe where Hinda run their 2009 car the engine would have been the weak link

#29 Jon83

Jon83
  • Member

  • 5,341 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:34

Nothing to see here, IMO.



#30 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 2,722 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:38

I think it would be pretty stupid for Honda to have a problem with Button simply because he won the WDC the first time he had a car capable of doing so.



#31 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 5,818 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:44

It's not about whether Honda would have won the titles if they hadn't withdrawn. It's about the fact that a lot of people think they made a bad decision. That is not good PR.

 

Honda are in F1 to demonstrate competence and ability to win. It would not surprise me if they want 2009 to be forgotten.



#32 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 2,722 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:50

I think RubalSher's post is quite a reasonable answer to that.

 

Yeah I don't see what's wrong with giving an alternate theory as to why Honda might want to replace Button.



#33 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:53

If Button is not in McLaren-Honda next year, it doesn't have anything to do with 2009. It would be so because they want an experienced and accomplised (so-called top driver) to lead the team and they think Alonso would be better suited for that role than Button. Meanwhile they'd also want to groom a young driver in the second seat.



#34 bub

bub
  • Member

  • 2,722 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 22 October 2014 - 12:59

It's not about whether Honda would have won the titles if they hadn't withdrawn. It's about the fact that a lot of people think they made a bad decision. That is not good PR.

 

Honda are in F1 to demonstrate competence and ability to win. It would not surprise me if they want 2009 to be forgotten.

 

I personally don't think this kind of mindset makes much sense but it might be a possibility. I guess you need to understand Japanese culture or the Honda bosses thought process etc to know how plausible the idea is.


Edited by bub, 22 October 2014 - 13:00.


#35 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 23,156 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 22 October 2014 - 13:01

It's not about Honda having a Jenson doll, it's maybe just about them being a little bit uncomfortable about 2009, and not wanting to be reminded of it all the time.

 

All the pundits would be saying stuff like "Jenson driving a Honda again. Of course, he actually won the WDC in 2009 driving a Honda, but it was called a Brawn because Honda had withdrawn from F1. I wonder whether, in hindsight, they think that wasn't a very smart decision"

 

Honda had their own reasons for withdrawing, and quite possibly compelling ones. But it looks to many people as though they made a really bad decision, and perhaps Honda would like it to be forgotten as soon as possible.

 

To get rid of him they're pretty much forced to replace him with Alonso, the only high calibre driver available... so that their partners McLaren can be uncomfortable about being reminded of 2007 all day long (a much more humiliating memory and one directly concerned with the driver!).

 

Still doesn't make any sense for me.



#36 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 23,842 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 22 October 2014 - 13:02

Only Honda caused Honda to lose face in 2009, running away from the sport in a blind panic.

 

As for the Honda/JB relationship, maybe there isn't one.  Maybe different people are involved these days.



#37 hittheapex

hittheapex
  • Member

  • 1,193 posts
  • Joined: July 14

Posted 22 October 2014 - 13:02

I personally don't think this kind of mindset makes much sense but it might be a possibility. I guess you need to understand Japanese culture or the Honda bosses thought process etc to know how plausible the idea is.

Rationally, it doesn't make sense. Most of us on here know that 2009 isn't going to be forgotten regardless of who McLaren have in their cars for 2015.

 

It is plausible though. The concept of face, not just in Japan but in Korea too, can lead to some decisions that are incomprehensible by those looking in from the outside.


Edited by hittheapex, 22 October 2014 - 13:03.


#38 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 5,818 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 22 October 2014 - 13:17

Rationally, it doesn't make sense. Most of us on here know that 2009 isn't going to be forgotten regardless of who McLaren have in their cars for 2015.

 

It is plausible though. The concept of face, not just in Japan but in Korea too, can lead to some decisions that are incomprehensible by those looking in from the outside.

 

I'd be interested to hear what members who are based in Japan think about this.



#39 RubalSher

RubalSher
  • Member

  • 3,944 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 22 October 2014 - 13:28

This season Button has beaten Magnussen convincingly.

Alonso is only one year younger than Button.

Do we really need another thread about Mclaren drivers for 2015?

 

 

Perhaps read the opening post next time you open a thread.

 

The question was indirectly asked as to why Honda may not choose Button next year despite his long association with them. Am I not allowed to speculate why Honda may dump Button?



Advertisement

#40 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 8,479 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 22 October 2014 - 13:33

Anyone who overestimate this "lose face = Japan/Korea/China" association/stereotype read too many (or little) old textbooks or cheap Japan books or watch and believe those Japanese movies.

 

Mentsu (面子) came from chinese idiom, maybe english phrase "lose face" has the same origin too? But notion of "embarrassment" is global thing anyway. 

As for the OP specifically...NO.



#41 HoldenRT

HoldenRT
  • Member

  • 6,773 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 22 October 2014 - 13:59

If Button is not in McLaren-Honda next year, it doesn't have anything to do with 2009. It would be so because they want an experienced and accomplised (so-called top driver) to lead the team and they think Alonso would be better suited for that role than Button. Meanwhile they'd also want to groom a young driver in the second seat.

 

Well summarised.



#42 hittheapex

hittheapex
  • Member

  • 1,193 posts
  • Joined: July 14

Posted 22 October 2014 - 13:59

Anyone who overestimate this "lose face = Japan/Korea/China" association/stereotype read too many (or little) old textbooks or cheap Japan books or watch and believe those Japanese movies.

 

Mentsu (面子) came from chinese idiom, maybe english phrase "lose face" has the same origin too? But notion of "embarrassment" is global thing anyway. 

As for the OP specifically...NO.

I would agree with you insofar as movies and books aren't always representative and that "lose face" is a synonym for embarrassment but it is my firm opinion that it is of stronger importance in this region. I'm an avid history student and currently am taking a course in Modern Korean History as part of an MA here in South Korea, which has obvious crossovers with Japan from a historical point of view (the two countries as a whole have many fundamental differences despite their being neighbours). I don't write that in an elitist or superior way, just writing that I have studied the region a lot rather than just the odd movie or book and lived here for a few years now. A person living in Japan could probably add some more knowledge to this comment, but one just has to look at the historical disputes between Japan and South Korea, the sex slaves issue, the apology issue, the whole colonial era and the Liancourt dispute to name a few. History is written by the winners and to one's national self interest to an extent the world over, but the extent of the denial and outright lies at times here in pursuit of national reptuation points scoring are a bloody nightmare,too often corrupting even the so called academic studies on the subject.

 

To get back on topic therefore, it is possible that despite the evident facts of 2009 and the seasons leading up to it, I wouldn't rule out Button being left out for irrational reasons but if he is sacked from McLaren I think it is more likely to be an assessment of his replacement/replacement's partner being a better long-term prospect.


Edited by hittheapex, 22 October 2014 - 14:40.


#43 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • Admin

  • 19,094 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 22 October 2014 - 14:08

Could someone please provide some information about the 'lots of rumours' referred to.

 

Thanks.



#44 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 3,420 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 22 October 2014 - 14:14

This article indicates that Honda blames JB for the awful 07-08 seasons

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/72330...

 

 

 

Could you imagine that Honda was actually able to build an aerodynamically sublime car after 2007 and 2008. I have no doubts that RA109 would have been a superior car with Honda-powertrain.

 

The chassis was sublime

 

The engine we do not know about since we have no benchmark.



#45 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 8,479 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 22 October 2014 - 14:19

It's not about whether Honda would have won the titles if they hadn't withdrawn. It's about the fact that a lot of people think they made a bad decision. That is not good PR.

 

Honda are in F1 to demonstrate competence and ability to win. It would not surprise me if they want 2009 to be forgotten.

 

Honda didnt hide emotion of regret and pain at all.

When they withdrew at the end of 2008 they expressed how heartbreak they feel and sorry for drivers esp Jenson.

In 2009 as well, they congratulated Brawn when they won at OZ and then WDC/WCC and didnt hide their feeling either.

In May/June 2013 when they announced comeback, they didnt hide the emotion that's been internally burning among workers for 2009 and the desire for "revenge (not sure if it's the right word but anyway)", which is one of major motivation for new F1 challenge.

(To me, this "revenge" they mention is more about positive thing that's different from "want 2009 to be forgotten" or "want to shake it off", which is negative)

It's just that these dont get reported widely or probably at all, which is why not known at all.



#46 Lazy

Lazy
  • Member

  • 6,708 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 22 October 2014 - 14:21

Sounds more like Mafia or religious thinking than what I understand of Japanese culture.



#47 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 8,479 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 22 October 2014 - 14:32

Really have we?  Is it the same rumour regurgitated or different ones, and are they credible or merely speculation?

 

It might also be useful to consider how much of a say Honda has in this, because surely McLaren knows what's best when it comes to running a modern F1 team and Honda can't be blind to that.

 

Exactly.

 

Honda keep saying they will decide which driver to take together with Mclaren, over and over and over again since May/June 2013. Most recently at the JPGP weekend. They said driver is one element of whole package and will take the best one that is available, communicating a lot with Mclaren/Dennis about many things, one of which is about drivers of course, sth like that.

 

somehow it's always "Honda want...", "Honda think.." but to be frank I dont get it. Not necessarily downplay those rumor talks but better always look for official source like personnel remarks imo. To sum up, "Honda willing to provide money for driver salary even if it's expensive one like Alonso" is plausible, and anything more than that is pure speculation, imo.



#48 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 15,143 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 22 October 2014 - 14:42

It’s starting to look as though Jenson won’t be a McLaren-Honda driver next year. 

 

Its not starting to look like that at all. 

 

Signing Alonso is still an unknown and so is which driver they'll drop if that happens.

 

End of thread /.



#49 sofarapartguy

sofarapartguy
  • Member

  • 1,267 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 22 October 2014 - 14:52

That is quite an assumption you make there; especially as they would have had works Honda engine and gearbox that were designed for the chassis, unlike the changes they had to make to accommodate the Mercedes. The Honda engine was no slouch either.

 

 

 

I do remember strongly words from Ross Brawn who just admired the power and flexibility (no sure about the word) of the Merc unit. You could hear him saying among the lines something like "It is way more advanced than the engines we had with Honda". Although Nothing said straight the message was clear. 



#50 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 8,479 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 22 October 2014 - 15:55

I would agree with you insofar as movies and books aren't always representative and that "lose face" is a synonym for embarrassment but it is my firm opinion that it is of stronger importance in this region. I'm an avid history student and currently am taking a course in Modern Korean History as part of an MA here in South Korea, which has obvious crossovers with Japan from a historical point of view (the two countries as a whole have many fundamental differences despite their being neighbours). I don't write that in an elitist or superior way, just writing that I have studied the region a lot rather than just the odd movie or book and lived here for a few years now. A person living in Japan could probably add some more knowledge to this comment, but one just has to look at the historical disputes between Japan and South Korea, the sex slaves issue, the apology issue, the whole colonial era and the Liancourt dispute to name a few. History is written by the winners and to one's national self interest to an extent the world over, but the extent of the denial and outright lies at times here in pursuit of national reptuation points scoring are a bloody nightmare,too often corrupting even the so called academic studies on the subject.

 

To get back on topic therefore, it is possible that despite the evident facts of 2009 and the seasons leading up to it, I wouldn't rule out Button being left out for irrational reasons but if he is sacked from McLaren I think it is more likely to be an assessment of his replacement/replacement's partner being a better long-term prospect.

 

Japan tend to put importance on "harmony in community", sometimes a bit too much. It has positive side, but here to focus on negative aspects, it's like "care about each other a bit too much", "too invasive into each other's private territories", "focus on trivial difference a bit too much", "cannot stand if it's not equal b/w me and you" etc. Not insisting/expressing yourself is considered virtue, but, or thats why, at the same time those who speak out loud tend to get their way (because most people wouldnt follow the "virtue" and try to just avoid conflict. Kind of paradox but it's like that. That can be the cause for those "incomprehensible decision" that can be seen here and there, but for global companies like Honda, Toyota, Samsung or Hyundai, there is very little room for such stupid philosophy in decision making I'm pretty sure. Otherwise You wouldnt survive nor expand globally.

 

About recent disputes like sex slave and Yasukuni and anti-Korea/China sentiment here, it's petty much machismo/cowardice/anti-intelligence combined with stagnant economy. To keep internal integrity, people esp politicians tend to go for this easy route of machoism, then those mindless people ride on it. To quite degree same for right wing / conservative / extremists move in Europe tho. For Japan, the aformentioned "prize internal harmony" propensity tend to drive this negative spiral. This is what lead Japan to Asian colonization and WW2 a century ago. Recent conduct (more a performance) by Japan government to ask revision to Coomaraswamy report in UN council is really embarrassing (kind of reminiscent of Japan withdrawal from league of nations back then, but hope not).

 

Anyway, society/world is full of sh!t but not everything is hopeless. I agree with "..it is more likely to be an assessment of his..." part, but you can safely rule out possibility of Button left out for irrational reasons. I fully get your reasoning, but here it's impossible I'm sure, hence not productive to focus on sth that's extremely unlikely.