46 replies to this topic

[Music Lover]

Hi !

I think we should have a separate thread for this topic, hope the moderators agree. 

 

This thread is for facts and speculation regarding Honda 2015 engine.

Power, fuel consumption and driveability (energy harvesting, storing and delivery) vs Ferrari, Renault and MB engines.

 

What can you tech savvy guys read out from this picture?

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/116104

 

 

 

Based on what the drivers and team personnel state in interviews, they obviously looking forward getting a works engine!

 

 

 

 

[Zava]

What can you tech savvy guys read out from this picture?

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/116104

looks fast.

 

 

sorry, had to : P

[Maustinsj]

Looks slow.

[turssi]

I dont even know what that is.

[Lazy]

[Rinehart]

I'm completely certain that once the manufacturers and FIA have untangled their knickers that are currently in a twist, we'll end up with all engines broadly equal and fixed for the next decade. I'm sure this will be achieved by 2016 at latest. 

[kerum gp]

this is one reliable engine

[superden]

Nobody knows until we see it installed and running. It could be great, it could be a dud. Nobody expected Renault to drop such a massive b*llock and they are a massive factory effort with racing pedigree, rather like Honda.

Edited by superden, 23 October 2014 - 09:44.

[Brazzers]

Honda engine is going to win more races than Renault and Ferrari next year 

[sopa]

Looks like a functional F1 power unit, which provided is installed properly into a modern F1 car, can enable it to take off and achieve pretty decent speed.

;)

[Jamiednm]

I don't think much of the livery, but other than that - looks fast!

Having said that, McLaren will be using it, so even if the engine is competitive, it won't be winning any races.

[blacky]

One thing is clear:

When Honda isn't able to take part of the Abu Dhabi test in the experimental McLaren, then they are definitely not at the point where they want to be at this stage of the year. Because for sure this is a great chance to sort out the teething problems and to have a good idea in which direction they have to develop until the tests and 28.02.

[frosty125]

As a McLaren fan I would agree with the above if the Honda engine runs at the Abu Dhabi test then that is a positive outlook if it doesn't run until Jerez then it is behind.

[Music Lover]

As a McLaren fan I would agree with the above if the Honda engine runs at the Abu Dhabi test then that is a positive outlook if it doesn't run until Jerez then it is behind.

Likely a good summary.

Lets hope they are competitive 2015 and not as Renault having serious issues AND lack of power. 

 

Are we SURE Honda haven't tested the engine in a real F1 yet? With the Renault mistake NOT executing integration tests at an early stage to find/address issues, I'm quite surprised if they haven't...

[David1976]

It will look nothing like that.  Just like the Mercedes didn't look anything like their press release pictures/video.

 

It's marketing.  Nothing more.

 

We will know nothing about the Honda competitiveness until March 2015.

[bonjon1979a]

https://www.youtube....NjdLYu1kM_OEJVw

What is the point of this? Craig's openly said that this isn't what the engine will look like and then precedes to assess it.

[F1ultimate]

One thing is clear:

When Honda isn't able to take part of the Abu Dhabi test in the experimental McLaren, then they are definitely not at the point where they want to be at this stage of the year. Because for sure this is a great chance to sort out the teething problems and to have a good idea in which direction they have to develop until the tests and 28.02.

 

 

You are right. Depending on how advanced Honda's dyno is the engine must be run a full scale car before the year ends. Testing sessions shouldn't be wasted on shaking down an engine or running large swaps of engine components. Sure some part of testing should realistically be used for QA but they will lose a lot of they turn up to testing with an engine that's in its embryonic state.

[EthanM]

it has black go faster accents so it's definitely an awesome engine

[Owen]

What is the point of this? Craig's openly said that this isn't what the engine will look like and then precedes to assess it.

Because he can make - educated - observations about the fundamental layout of the PU.

[HoldenRT]

They are a year behind in development compared to other teams.  They will only have one test car in the winter.  If they hit the sweet spot and get it right, it can be good.  If they don't it can be even worse than Renault.  Imagine if Merc had released and raced their engine 12 months in advance of Renault doing theirs?  And then Merc developing and gaining feedback while Renault's still yet to hit the track?  The Merc could stay frozen for an extra 12 months and still not sure if Renault or Ferrari would catch up.  The risk is worth it for McLaren because it's all about the works side of things.  It's a long term thing, not a short term thing.  First year could be teething problems and a lack of pace but it can pay off in the long run.

 

The Honda rep/boss during race weekend press conferences can barely speak English.  I find that unusual but the Japanese as a culture are a traditional people.  His questions weren't answered very well and there wasn't a lot of confidence either.  It's a very tough task.  It seemed like he had to keep reminding journos of that.  He's been asked questions like whether they will be supplying a second team.. and they need to focus on getting it right with the main team first.

 

If it's a good engine, none of it will matter.  The engines performance will speak for itself.  In the early days, it could be tough.  The initial teething problems.  In my opinion it's been a long time since Honda produced a truly strong engine in F1 and the 2004-2008 days weren't that impressive.  The V8 was average at best.  But that's got little to do with 2015.. it's a new era and a new opportunity.  It's exciting because the more engines/manufacturers in F1 the better.

[muramasa]

 

The Honda rep/boss during race weekend press conferences can barely speak English.  I find that unusual but the Japanese as a culture are a traditional people.  His questions weren't answered very well and there wasn't a lot of confidence either.  It's a very tough task.  It seemed like he had to keep reminding journos of that.  He's been asked questions like whether they will be supplying a second team.. and they need to focus on getting it right with the main team first.

 

 

Arai barely speak English cos he's Japanese

I watched those pcs where he participated so far but I get an impression he's being given questionnaires beforehand and either he or a writer write script and just read it. He doesnt seem to be able to make impromptu conversation exchange in English. But he has to do it coz he's the project  leader and tech guy who knows it and has to represent Honda, communicate with Mclaren etc. PR guy fluent in English cant do the job coz have no idea about tech aspect. Kind of same as Hamashima. 

When he's speaking in Japanese he's not like that. It's always shame someone smart like him has to give completely wrong/opposite impression just because cant speak English well.

 

You are right. Depending on how advanced Honda's dyno is the engine must be run a full scale car before the year ends. Testing sessions shouldn't be wasted on shaking down an engine or running large swaps of engine components. Sure some part of testing should realistically be used for QA but they will lose a lot of they turn up to testing with an engine that's in its embryonic state.

Arai confirmed they are making "test car". See the Honda thread, transcripts of his interviews are there.

Also all of what's talked here is already being talked and answered in the other thread for long long time, so I dont see the point of this thread tbh. Just interesting to find out how quite a few people seem not be looking at the other thread maybe only because of somewhat obscure thread title.

[EthanM]

Arai barely speak English cos he's Japanese

I watched those pcs where he participated so far but I get an impression he's being given questionnaires beforehand and either he or a writer write script and just read it. He doesnt seem to be able to make impromptu conversation exchange in English. But he has to do it coz he's the project  leader and tech guy who knows it and has to represent Honda, communicate with Mclaren etc. PR guy fluent in English cant do the job coz have no idea about tech aspect. Kind of same as Hamashima. 

When he's speaking in Japanese he's not like that. It's always shame someone smart like him has to give completely wrong/opposite impression just because cant speak English well.

 

Arai confirmed they are making "test car". See the Honda thread, transcripts of his interviews are there.

Also all of what's talked here is already being talked and answered in the other thread for long long time, so I dont see the point of this thread tbh. Just interesting to find out how quite a few people seem not be looking at the other thread maybe only because of somewhat obscure thread title.

 

 

I assume the "test car" is the interim car Boullier was talking about in Japan (basically this year's car with a Honda engine). Doubt that contraption can run before the end of the season, from a regulatory standpoint. So it's either Abu Dhabi or Jerez

[Owen]

Maybe we should rename this thread MP4-29H, just to be more specific.

[bonjon1979a]

Because he can make - educated - observations about the fundamental layout of the PU.

But he openly admits the fundamentals may be different. Split turbo and compressor, size of turbo, placement of MGU-k etc no idea from this render as he admits it may be and probably will be completely different.

[Exb]

I really hope they manage to run the new engine at the Abu Dhabi test. It would give them a great chance to deal with any issues that crop up over the winter and before the engine is homologated (as there is so little time between the 1st pre-season test and homologation). Then they can spend the rest of the winter tweaking it for reliability and extra power

 

(Also it may help to keep some of the wild rumours at bay that are bound to crop up otherwise - project is running late/engine is down on power/reliability shocking etc (we've already seen some of that) which may otherwise start to give me some sleepless nights in dread on the approach to the Jerez test )

[CrucialXtreme]

McLaren Honda at Silverstone..

[bogi]

Did they run ERS component?

[Timstr11]

Throaty exhaust. Like it.

 

(I could see another guy filming with his phone(?), so there must be more vids out there).

[Exb]

Finally a video  Sounds good  

[micktosin]

Is it only me that thinks the engine sound really loud in that video ?? Keep the videos coming guys.

[RedOne]

The sound is good, louder then I expected

[Exb]

Is it only me that thinks the engine sound really loud in that video ?? Keep the videos coming guys.

They always sound loud on trackside videos

 

[tmekt]

Sounds fast

[CrucialXtreme]

I think the Honda PU is going to surprise some people. I think there is a good chance it will be the 2nd best power unit on the grid in 2015.

[Afterburner]

I like what I hear. If not the fastest, Honda will have at least built the best-sounding engine.

[rodlamas]

I have seen on Twitter that

 

- Honda's PU seems to have almost the same amount of performance of the current Mercedes engine;

- Mercedes claim to have found an extra second of performance for their 2015 engine.

[David1976]

We'll know nothing until March 2015.

 

Until then we can only speculate at the performance of the Honda relative to other manufacturers.

[Gyno]

That's the sound from a shitty phone camera.

In reality it doesn't sound anything like that,.

[mawerickinf1]

there were rumours that honda is behind scheule....

 

"Furthermore, recent reports have indicated that Honda’s development programme for the power unit has been lagging severely – with problems even worse than what Renault faced in the pre-season tests this year – as high fuel consumption and low power output thwart its efforts. "

 

http://www.f1pulse.c...-emerge-in-2015

 

.....well. the ferrari rumours were true>>>>>>>>> the renault rumours were more than true.....  i hope for once the rumours are rumours....  

[Brazzers]

there were rumours that honda is behind scheule....

 

"Furthermore, recent reports have indicated that Honda’s development programme for the power unit has been lagging severely – with problems even worse than what Renault faced in the pre-season tests this year – as high fuel consumption and low power output thwart its efforts. "

 

http://www.f1pulse.c...-emerge-in-2015

 

.....well. the ferrari rumours were true>>>>>>>>> the renault rumours were more than true.....  i hope for once the rumours are rumours....  

 

That's from September. 

[Fatgadget]

I think the Honda PU is going to surprise some people. I think there is a good chance it will be the 2nd best power unit on the grid in 2015.

I bet you said the exact same thing in 2013 before the Renault..the Ferrari and the Merc PU's were unleashed!!

[Melbourne Park]

IMO the whole homologation program is only threatened by one thing: a new engine entrant.

 

With homologation, the smart thing to do is spend a fortune so that when you homologate, you don't have to develop.

That's what Mercedes did. Honda could have had an engine last year ... but they knew homologation formulas requires a well developed engine. 

 

So I think Honda will have a great engine. They are the world's biggest engine manufacture, they beat Toyota with first hybrid road car, they've sold lots of hybrids too. This formula is made for Honda as they've seen the Mercedes but have had an extra year to develop their package without any homologation restrictions.

 

Their previous engines were poor for one main reason - aero issues. But recall that for some time, their F1 car with /Button, was challenging Michael Schumacher / Ferrari. At a time when the FIA provided Ferrari with a rules veto power, which provided Ferrari with a competitive advantage. And then Honda were disqualified for highly dubious header tank fuel levels, when most other teams were doing the very same thing. And Honda were stuck out for three races and threatened that if they protested, they'd be totally disgraced. The Japanese backed away but you can be sure they have not forgotten that threat to their reputation. They've watched Renault save Nissan and then brand the RBR world dominating F1 car with Nissan's US luxury Infiniti brand and see Infiniti expanding its brand in other markets while Honda's luxury brand is stuck in the USA. They've watched the mayhem of Ducati being turned into a challenging MotoGP package by BMW ownership.

 

Bitter tastes there and the last engine did seem a poor aero package but such engine environments were pre homologation and who knows what was planned for the new F1 car before the financial crisis hit ... the financial crisis probably killed a new engine and the sale of the team may have been due to that alone, because the old engine wasn't right.  So Honda pulled out, and their team - just handed across - won the championship and with a Mercedes label.

 

More bitter tastes no doubt but then - but they were financially responsible.

 

And now, they are rolling in money, hugely cashed up. Time for a reward then in a company that believes racing was the foundation of their greatness? And they are great - they are the largest motor manufacturer in the world. People pay more for a Honda powered device, knowing that it will be bulletproof and achieve what the device promises. 

 

I expect a great motor and a body that matches. McLaren have been focused on the new car for next year, but its still shown glimpses of speed even with their current platform. The new one will take all the advantages that Honda will provide. Notably, a tighter package, and every cubic mm makes a big difference to aero. If the rear is compact, then I expect a competitive advantage in ""power on from medium corners, like what RBR provided to Vettel. The reason why these F1 cars are difficult to drive and slow, is due to their profound lack of rear grip. Design and engine to give better rear aero and a competitive rear grip advantage will occur, and that will make a very fast car. Hence a likely advantage in all the aero circuits. And due to homologation, no one else will be able to match a compact rear power unit. The packaging from the Scarbs video did reveal a major difference from the other power units used today, which would provide a very compact rear of the car. We'll know more soon I guess. 

 

I doubt Renault can catch up for a few years due to homologation, so I'm expecting Honda to break the Mercedes bubble via packaging and aero benefits.

 

Can't weight: Ron Dennis is there to stir the pot, Honda is their to enrage Mercedes, and Alonso is there to extract more than was expected. Shame Adrian doesn't consult for them, just for the publicity and the fear factor. But I guess he's had well enough of Ron and feels obliged towards RBR. Mercedes would have hated that though ...

Edited by Melbourne Park, 17 November 2014 - 21:36.

[MikeV1987]

It sounds great, I doubt TV coverage will do it justice though.

[Timstr11]

So it looks like Honda will be able to take pat in the Abu Dhabi test. 

Looking forward to it.

[Emilvang]

Speaking of TV coverage, is the Abu Dhabi test on TV?

[Timstr11]

So Ron Dennis just said on the BBC that Honda will proof 2 different engine concepts at the Abu Dhabi test.

 

Honda is leaving no stones unturned it seems.

 

I remember reading somewhere they were also looking at a Turbo/MGU-H inside the V so possibly one of the 2 concepts.

[Skizo]

There was a talk months ago that they will make more versions,and when the new aero guy come,they will chose whats the best package.