96 replies to this topic

[Dunc]

I'm one of the younger TNF posters and am always trying to expand my knowledge of F1 history.  Could one or more of the older hands possibly help me out on this..

 

I'm trying to learn a bit more on the two drivers in the threads but I'm really struggling to find stuff, particularly on Hawthorn.  I find this quite surprising considering he was Britain's first WDC but all the nostalgia for 50s racing seems to be around Stirling Moss.  To a certain extent the same is true of Surtees, who seems to get left our of 60s nostlgia which focusses on Clark/Hill/Stewart. 

 

Can anyone shed a light on good sources of information and/or why their is so little nostalgia for these guys?

[milestone 11]

Tony Bailey's site is as good a place as any to start for Hawthorn.

[D28]

http://www.motorspor...ue-achievement/

 

See current story by Paul Fearnley at Motor Sport site. Since this is John's 80 birthdate as well as 50th anniversary of his WDC, Motor Sport have featured quite a few articles on him recently. This is one publication that certainly has not forgotten his exploits.

A memoir    John Surtees: My Incredible Life on Two and Four Wheels was published in June by Evro publishing .

Searching through the net should bring up considerable sources.

[Paulleek]

If you haven't come across it already, get a copy of "Mon Ami Mate" by Chris NIxon. "Mike Hawthorn - Golden Boy" by the above mentioned Tony Bailey and Paul Skilleter is good too. I'd read them in that order.

[Alan Cox]

I've found 29 Mike Hawthorn threads listed on TNF, admittedly a number of them being of very limited scope, but there are a number which might contain some new information for you if you haven't already found them

http://forums.autosp...l=mike hawthorn

http://forums.autosp...+mike +hawthorn

http://forums.autosp...+mike +hawthorn

http://forums.autosp...+mike +hawthorn

http://forums.autosp...+mike +hawthorn

[Paulleek]

Oh, also you could get hold of copies of "Challenge Me the Race" and "Champion Year"; JMH's ghosted autobiographies. The latter was published after his death( in Feb of '59), I believe. He'd already conducted the interviews.

Edited by Paulleek, 30 October 2014 - 11:43.

[D-Type]

I thought of suggesting his two autobiographies.  But they are in the "next week we went to Silverstone" genre and tell very little about the man's personality.  I haven't read "Golden Boy" but would highly recommend "Mon Ami Mate" which describes his career and the type of man he was.

 

Sorry, I can't advise on books about John Surtees as he has never interested me.  I don't know why.

Edited by D-Type, 30 October 2014 - 11:58.

[Paulleek]

I thought of suggesting his two autobiographies.  But they are in the "next week we went to Silverstone" genre and tell very little about the man's personality.  I haven't read "Golden Boy" but would highly recommend "Mon Ami Mate" which describes his career and the type of man he was.

 

Sorry, I can't advise on books about John Surtees as he has never interested me.  I don't know why.

 

I agree with all of that...Also Dunc, you'll probably become interested in Peter Collins and his career too if you start with "Mon Ami Mate".

[Charlieman]

Speed: John Surtees' Own Story is a readable account of John's early career (pre-1963). It has a distinctive period flavour.

[Paul Parker]

I'm one of the younger TNF posters and am always trying to expand my knowledge of F1 history.  Could one or more of the older hands possibly help me out on this..

 

I'm trying to learn a bit more on the two drivers in the threads but I'm really struggling to find stuff, particularly on Hawthorn.  I find this quite surprising considering he was Britain's first WDC but all the nostalgia for 50s racing seems to be around Stirling Moss.  To a certain extent the same is true of Surtees, who seems to get left our of 60s nostlgia which focusses on Clark/Hill/Stewart. 

 

Can anyone shed a light on good sources of information and/or why their is so little nostalgia for these guys?

 

If you can find a copy you should buy JOHN SURTEES World Champion written by John in collaboration with Alan Henry, published by Hazelton in 1991 which has a lot good photos, b/w and colour, plus his bike and car racing records.

[Dunc]

Thanks guys. Can anyone shed any light/theories on why these two don't have the kind of nostalgia around them that Moss, Clark, Hill, Stewart, Hunt etc have?

[LotusElise]

My guess, for Mike Hawthorn at least, is that he would be much better-known now, had he still been alive and/or competing in the era of widespread TV ownership and Formula One coverage. He had the sort of personality and distinctive appearance that works well on TV.

[Mal9444]

My guess, for Mike Hawthorn at least, is that he would be much better-known now, had he still been alive and/or competing in the era of widespread TV ownership and Formula One coverage. He had the sort of personality and distinctive appearance that works well on TV.

Indeed. Imagine a Goodwood Revival with both Mike Hawthorn and Stirling Moss on the grid...

[Eric Dunsdon]

My guess, for Mike Hawthorn at least, is that he would be much better-known now, had he still been alive and/or competing in the era of widespread TV ownership and Formula One coverage. He had the sort of personality and distinctive appearance that works well on TV.

I cant imagine that Mike, or Peter too for that matter, would have had much time for the nonsense that is 'Eff One' these days, though I can quite imagine Mike, in particular still attending VSCC meetings and the Goodwood Revival.

[Roger Clark]

Mike Hawthorn's stature was certainly recognised in the 50s; he was widely recognised as one of the best two or three around, despite virtually sacrificing two years of his career to drive British cars.  Moss has been widely praised for driving British early in his career but Hawthorn did it during what could have been his peak years.  His reasons may have been connected with the need to manage his garage but it still cost him a lot in his career.  In recent years he has been overshadowed by the legend that is (rightly) Stirling Moss but those who know will not forget.

 

Likewise, John Surtees at his peak was one of the very few able to challenge jim Clark; up to the end of 1961 he was probably seen as the more promising of the two.  Like Graham Hill, his Grand Prix career rather petered out in cars, his own and others, which were not fully competitive. This may have lead some to forget how good he was at his peak.  In recent years, his work for charity and for the Sport generally hac been excellent.

[Doug Nye]

Seconded.

DCN

[Roger Clark]

I thought of suggesting his two autobiographies.  But they are in the "next week we went to Silverstone" genre and tell very little about the man's personality.  I haven't read "Golden Boy" but would highly recommend "Mon Ami Mate" which describes his career and the type of man he was.

 

Sorry, I can't advise on books about John Surtees as he has never interested me.  I don't know why.

 

I have to disagree mildly about Challenge Me The Race and Champion Year.  It's a long time since I read them, but I remember them as an interesting insight into the life of a racing driver of the time and about Hawthorn's interests and prejudices.  I know they were both ghosted but I felt they were an accurate reflection of his views.  They are certainly entered around his racing career but that's no bad thing.

 

I remember a description of a road journey to a European race with Rodney Walkerley, featuring frequent refuelling stops: "Rodney's favourite is gin and tonic".

[D28]

 

 

Likewise, John Surtees at his peak was one of the very few able to challenge jim Clark; up to the end of 1961 he was probably seen as the more promising of the two.  Like Graham Hill, his Grand Prix career rather petered out in cars, his own and others, which were not fully competitive. This may have lead some to forget how good he was at his peak.  In recent years, his work for charity and for the Sport generally hac been excellent.

Right, while many observers felt another WDC was available had he remained at Ferrari, a close examination of their F1 program makes the scenario unlikely. It would have had to be 1966, and while Ferrari and Surtees finished 2nd in both championships,. in the WCC they were a full win behind. I believe that Jack Brabham and Repco had 1966 well covered for both titles. After that , the Cosworth DFV and Ferrari lack of focus would have stymied a strong F1 effort. By the time Mauro Forghieri got the flat 12 sorted out with race winning  reliability, John was ready to pack in a driving career; he retired at the end of 1971, age 37. Undoubtedly Surtees had the talent for a 2nd drivers title, he was just not with the right team at the appropriate  time.  

[Nemo1965]

The question why Hawthhorn is less in the picture than comparable drivers, is one I often contemplated. My (more than?) five cents:

 

1. He won the world championship... while arguably the best British driver at the time, Stirling Moss, did not.  On top of that, he won the championship with one victory in that year, and the irony is that he won the championship because Moss was so sportive to protest Hawthorn's disqualification in a race, earlier in the season. Would Moss not have done that, he would have won the big prize...

 

I think that after the second world war, a 'hard, honest won battle' was very valued. Hawthorn was blamed or less appreciated, because he had the luck of a champion.

 

2. He died in a road-accident, AFTER his retirement. If he would have died in a motorracing-crash, I think, the memory of him would have been totally different. An ex-driver dying in a traffic-accident... it was not 'glamourous' or 'heroic' (as if motorracing accidents are, but you get the point!)

 

3. The British press, according to Doug Nye in Great racing drivers, in 1954 started a 'filthy, vicious campagne against him' because Hawthorn did not do his National Service. The truth was that Mike had a kidney-disease and never would have lived past his fortieth birthday, and was therefore not fit for duty. Never the less: such an orchestrated effort by bad press often leads to a muffled reputation in the decades that come after. An 'image' is fed by an 'image', and so forth.

 

4. The accident in Le Mans 1955, where Pierre Levegh had to avoid Mike Hawthorn (sudden?) slowing down for the pits, crashed against the back of another car, and crashed into the public, making the bloodiest accident in motorracing history. Hundreds of death, apocalyptic scenes in the newsreels in the cinema... and the French press put all the blame on Hawthorn-shoulders. Subsquent investigations only partially exonerated Hawthorn. The discussion about who was to blame most, continues to this day.

 

Anyway, it did not improve Mike Hawthorn's reputation. My final thought: if Mike had become worldchampion, and then would have died from an accute kidney-failure (which was certainly in the cars) not long after, he would have gone into history as a tragic champion.

 

Regarding Surtees... that man is REALLY underestimated.

Edited by Nemo1965, 02 November 2014 - 11:33.

[Collombin]

I thought the one who missed National Service due to a kidney issue was Moss.

[Nemo1965]

Perhaps he also.

 

According to my knowledge, Hawthorn really had a life-threatening issue with his kidney(s).

Edited by Nemo1965, 02 November 2014 - 11:54.

[Collombin]

Oh absolutely. But Moss was the one who got out of National Service on grounds that were medical, and hence his reasons were understandable and palatable to the public at large. Hawthorn did not, and hence was accused of being a dodger.

[Roger Clark]

I can only repeat that, during his lifetime, Mike Hawthorn' s ability and achievements were fully recognised by the race going public.

In those days, most followers of motor racing probably fell into one of two camps: Moss/Maserati or HawthornCollins/Ferrari. Denis Jenkinson probably had a trident engraved on his heart yet he wrote in 1960 of Hawthorn's enthusiasm for all things relating to cars and motorcycles. He was very much "one of us". DSJ concluded:

"The years of the past Formula 1 racing will always bring happy memories to me of the first Englishman to become World Champion, a truly fitting personality to take over such a position. Having followed his career at close quarters from his first drive with the Scuderia Ferrari to his last, when he was crowned World Champion I was never more happy than when he achieved the ultimate aim of every Grand Prix driver. That he died so soon after achieving this pinnacle is tragic indeed but more tragic was that it was the death of a real motoring enthusiast who had enjoyed living."

[Nemo1965]

I can only repeat that, during his lifetime, Mike Hawthorn' s ability and achievements were fully recognised by the race going public.

In those days, most followers of motor racing probably fell into one of two camps: Moss/Maserati or HawthornCollins/Ferrari. Denis Jenkinson probably had a trident engraved on his heart yet he wrote in 1960 of Hawthorn's enthusiasm for all things relating to cars and motorcycles. He was very much "one of us". DSJ concluded:

"The years of the past Formula 1 racing will always bring happy memories to me of the first Englishman to become World Champion, a truly fitting personality to take over such a position. Having followed his career at close quarters from his first drive with the Scuderia Ferrari to his last, when he was crowned World Champion I was never more happy than when he achieved the ultimate aim of every Grand Prix driver. That he died so soon after achieving this pinnacle is tragic indeed but more tragic was that it was the death of a real motoring enthusiast who had enjoyed living."

 

But this is interesting, right? Denis Jenkinson was THE motorsport-journalist at the time... and if one takes a look what he writes here, one could conclude that Hawthorne was really appreciated in his own time. But at the same time, there was the anti-Hawthorne mood in the British press (for a while) and in the French press after Le Mans... And several posters agree with the OP that Hawthorne (and Surtees) are a bit pressed away in history.

 

Perhaps a divide in the racing fans world and the wider audience-world?

Edited by Nemo1965, 02 November 2014 - 13:00.

[Eric Dunsdon]

Perhaps he also.

 

According to my knowledge, Hawthorn really had a life-threatening issue with his kidney(s).

Sadly, I overlooked this in my earlier post. Of course, by all accounts Mike wouldnt have lived long enough to enjoy a Goodwood Revival meeting.

But as someone who was around at the time, I can endorse that Mike Hawthorn was enormously popular with British motor racing enthusiasts, as of course, Stirling Moss and Peter Collins were. But Mike, on his day, could bring the crowds to their feet.

[DoubleM]

If I remember correctly, and I may well not as it's at least 45 years since I read the particular article, Hawthorn turned up for a National Service medical shortly after incurring severe burns to his legs in a race at Syracuse (1954).  One month after this his father was killed in a road accident.  Not a good place to be even with healthy kidneys........if the chronology is wrong, I apologise.  Unlike the contemporary press I am not imputing 'draft dodger' motives to Hawthorn - Leveson showed that most journos are unfit to walk the earth with civilised people and history teaches us that nothing changes, they always were.

[Nemo1965]

If I remember correctly, and I may well not as it's at least 45 years since I read the particular article, Hawthorn turned up for a National Service medical shortly after incurring severe burns to his legs in a race at Syracuse (1954).  One month after this his father was killed in a road accident.  Not a good place to be even with healthy kidneys........if the chronology is wrong, I apologise.  Unlike the contemporary press I am not imputing 'draft dodger' motives to Hawthorn - Leveson showed that most journos are unfit to walk the earth with civilised people and history teaches us that nothing changes, they always were.

 

Sorry, but off-topic: Leveson did NOT show that most journos are unfit to walk the earth with civilised people, because he only investigated the British press, and not all of the British press, but those newspapers and tv-programs who were involved in stalking and eavesdropping on famous people, Leveson did NOT investigate the quality-press in Great-Brittain, not the UK, not Scotland, not Ireland, not Germany, the Netherlands, France, Italy, Denmark, Germany, and the United States.

 

Sorry for the rant, but politicians and other powerful people have been able - out of their own interest - to smear the reputation of ALL journalists so successfully, I now and then feel obliged to cry against it in the desert that is internet.

 

PS: DoubleM: With which I don't say, DoubleM, that you are a politician or a powerful person who smears the reputation of journalists out of your own interest, I just think you are like many well-intended citizens who have been propagandised by the powers-that-be to distrust your most important ally in democracy AGAINST the corrupt and the greedy: the journalist.

Edited by Nemo1965, 03 November 2014 - 13:03.

[DoubleM]

OK - off topic.  I did not mean to impute the integrity of all journalists with my comment and assumed that, by the inclusion of the word 'Leveson', that it would be clear that I was referring only to those that came within the enquiry's remit.  I know that there are many honest and courageous journalists and photographers throughout the world who have risked their all to bring important matters to the notice of the world...and far too many of them have died making that effort.

 

You are, of course, correct in your assumption that I am neither a politician or powerful person - far from it.  I am, however, a citizen (well-intentioned or otherwise) who has come, over the course of many years, to understand that the mainstream media in all its forms does not exist to promote the well-being of those who are similarly neither politicians or powerful.  I do not consider that I have been 'propagandised' as you call it and consider that to be a somewhat patronising attitude.  However, I speak as I find and have found that my admittedly limited contact with, and understanding of, journalists has not been the most edifying of experiences.  If you consider that opinion to be tantamount to a 'smear' then words fail me.....perhaps it will be necessary to preface every post with some formula such as "The following is a personal opinion and is not intended to be taken as an attack on any individual or institution".

 

The irony is that my intention was to pass on, however imperfectly, some information that may have been of use to the original poster Dunc.  Perhaps I should have PM'd him and saved us both the last two postings.....but that may be somewhat against the spirit of this place? 

[Nemo1965]

OK - off topic.  I did not mean to impute the integrity of all journalists with my comment and assumed that, by the inclusion of the word 'Leveson', that it would be clear that I was referring only to those that came within the enquiry's remit.  I know that there are many honest and courageous journalists and photographers throughout the world who have risked their all to bring important matters to the notice of the world...and far too many of them have died making that effort.

 

You are, of course, correct in your assumption that I am neither a politician or powerful person - far from it.  I am, however, a citizen (well-intentioned or otherwise) who has come, over the course of many years, to understand that the mainstream media in all its forms does not exist to promote the well-being of those who are similarly neither politicians or powerful.  I do not consider that I have been 'propagandised' as you call it and consider that to be a somewhat patronising attitude.  However, I speak as I find and have found that my admittedly limited contact with, and understanding of, journalists has not been the most edifying of experiences.  If you consider that opinion to be tantamount to a 'smear' then words fail me.....perhaps it will be necessary to preface every post with some formula such as "The following is a personal opinion and is not intended to be taken as an attack on any individual or institution".

 

The irony is that my intention was to pass on, however imperfectly, some information that may have been of use to the original poster Dunc.  Perhaps I should have PM'd him and saved us both the last two postings.....but that may be somewhat against the spirit of this place? 

 

I can see from your post that you are more informed that most of the well-willing of my dear, but led astray friends. So my apologies if I offended you in any way.

 

I did not want to be patronising, I just am so sad that even some of my intelligent friends with an university-degree have such a bad impression of ALL journalists that they say stuff like: 'But journalists can do whatever they like to sell newspapers, right?' And when I tell them, exasperated, that in my time as a journalist at two different national newspapers in the Netherlands I never heard ONE chief or editor say: 'Yeah, lets print that story, lets take that headline, we will sell a lot of papers that way,' they look at me incredulously.

 

To get back on topic: there was a - substantial? - part of the British press that 'campaigned' against Hawthorne, but as a another poster said: Mike was also broadly revered. Also that shows that even back then, there was quality-press and gutter-press. I think that the perceived 'lack of nostalgia about Hawthorne was partly caused by the false accusations of 'draft-dodging', which 'smeared' his reputation undeservedly but, in a way, effectively.

 

And hey, I am back on the rail of the topic!

 

Point finished!

[LotusElise]

There was a bit of bad feeling about his supposed behaviour around and after Luigi Musso's death, too.

[Sharman]

I rather think that was Italian press generated. The worst and the best that can be said of JMH is that he was a bloke's bloke, he stood his round and he laughed at non-pc jokes. In the 50s we were all very close to the end of WW2 and attitudes to life and death were different. Those of us who did National Service never thought about "dodging"  a duty which was required of all young men but deferment was usual in both academic and sporting fields, as was copious leave and early release. A suitable posting would mean he would probably have been able to continue his racing without many problems.

[doc knutsen]

There was a bit of bad feeling about his supposed behaviour around and after Luigi Musso's death, too.

I was an eleven-year old fan when Mike was crowned World Champion, and I devoured anything and everything written about him that  I could lay my hands on back then, and later. I cannot remember anything written about any untoward behaviour at the time of the Musso tragedy, although it was pretty obvious that mes amis mates were not exactly bosom buddies with Musso. Hawthorn's reaction to the news on Collins at the German hospital are well documented, however. I remember very clearly Mike turning his head around, looking behind him, after the Pflanzgarten, as if hoping that Peter might have recovered, and was still chasing that Vanwall. I was a wide-eyed spectator at the Nurburgring in 1958, watching with my father, who had come back from spectating at Le Mans in 1955...hugely impressed with that black-helmeted driver in the no 6 D-type.

 

About Mike's status with the British mainstream media, I also remember the huge front page headline of one of the leading UK papers, that fateful day in late January 1959. It said, simply: "MIKE KILLED!"

Edited by doc knutsen, 04 November 2014 - 17:29.

[Nemo1965]

I was an eleven-year old fan when Mike was crowned World Champion, and I devoured anything and everything written about him that  I could lay my hands on back then, and later. I cannot remember anything written about any untoward behaviour at the time of the Musso tragedy, although it was pretty obvious that mes amis mates were not exactly bosom buddies with Musso. Hawthorn's reaction to the news on Collins at the German hospital are well documented, however. I remember very clearly Mike turning his head around, looking behind him, after the Pflanzgarten, as if hoping that Peter might have recovered, and was still chasing that Vanwall. I was a wide-eyed spectator at the Nurburgring in 1958, watching with my father, who had come back from spectating at Le Mans in 1955...hugely impressed with that black-helmeted driver in the no 6 D-type.

 

About Mike's status with the British mainstream media, I also remember the huge front page headline of one of the leading UK papers, that fateful day in late January 1959. It said, simply: "MIKE KILLED!"

 

Thank you for this wonderful personal insight. I really appreciate it, if people still have the trust to post stuff like this!

[DoubleM]

Sorry - veering slightly off topic again...but have to agree with nemo1965, as above. 

 

I'm slightly older than doc knutsen and although I don't wish to turn this into a "Where were you when...?" thread I too remember, so incredibly clearly, that January day.  At the time I was at school in Hampstead and had to use the Northern Line to get home.  A small group of us boys, all living in roughly the same northerly direction from the school piled onto the tube to be greeted with Evening Standard and Evening News headlines on the front pages of upraised newspapers.  I guess that we had been so busy talking amongst ourselves that we had failed to notice the board at the small news kiosk inside the station booking hall - the swift lift descent down to the deepest sub-surface platforms in London usually took our breath away (was it going to stop?) - but there was little expectation that it would be 'business as usual' for us boys for some time to come after seeing those papers.

 

I remember that many at school were motor-racing fans - we played rugby rather than football and the game with the round ball was 'hardly on our radar' - but there was a physical layout in the Junior School playground that was perfectly suited to racing Dinky and Corgi cars.  We liked to think we had adopted a slightly more sophisticated approach by the Senior School, of course, but I remember how a Ferrari was always Hawthorn, the Vanwall was Moss (can't remember who was the Talbot-Lago, Alfa-Romeo or D-Type Jaguar or other miscellaneous vehicles).

 

Somehow the magic went for me and I took up plane-spotting (sad, I know) until one day in early 1967 I went to Brands Hatch with friends to something called the 'Race of Champions' and what had, unknown to me, remained a smouldering ember for those years, burst into flame again.

 

Thanks for sparking off that memory.  Take care.

Mike

[Nemo1965]

Sorry - veering slightly off topic again...but have to agree with nemo1965, as above. 

 

I'm slightly older than doc knutsen and although I don't wish to turn this into a "Where were you when...?" thread I too remember, so incredibly clearly, that January day.  At the time I was at school in Hampstead and had to use the Northern Line to get home.  A small group of us boys, all living in roughly the same northerly direction from the school piled onto the tube to be greeted with Evening Standard and Evening News headlines on the front pages of upraised newspapers.  I guess that we had been so busy talking amongst ourselves that we had failed to notice the board at the small news kiosk inside the station booking hall - the swift lift descent down to the deepest sub-surface platforms in London usually took our breath away (was it going to stop?) - but there was little expectation that it would be 'business as usual' for us boys for some time to come after seeing those papers.

 

I remember that many at school were motor-racing fans - we played rugby rather than football and the game with the round ball was 'hardly on our radar' - but there was a physical layout in the Junior School playground that was perfectly suited to racing Dinky and Corgi cars.  We liked to think we had adopted a slightly more sophisticated approach by the Senior School, of course, but I remember how a Ferrari was always Hawthorn, the Vanwall was Moss (can't remember who was the Talbot-Lago, Alfa-Romeo or D-Type Jaguar or other miscellaneous vehicles).

 

Somehow the magic went for me and I took up plane-spotting (sad, I know) until one day in early 1967 I went to Brands Hatch with friends to something called the 'Race of Champions' and what had, unknown to me, remained a smouldering ember for those years, burst into flame again.

 

Thanks for sparking off that memory.  Take care.

Mike

 

Off-topic and again on-topic: the question regarding the perceived lack of nostalgia about Hawthorne and Surtees: Lately I've been wondering a lot about Dutch famous persons who's death really plunged the Netherlands in mourning... but that mourning seemed like a powderpuff explosion: a lot of smoke but no indents on the surface. Meaning that, now, their names are never mentioned, their records not played any more, their books not cited, their art not shown...  While other dead people, who were much less famous in their days, are still part of our national 'idea'.

 

Perhaps that also happened to Hawthorne. He was connected to his time, in his essence, and that is why he was so impressive for boys like the young Doc Knutsen and Mike, here above. But when he died, these boys grew up. And HIS time died, too.

 

Strange.

[Sharman]

My last memory of Mike HAWTHORN was at a craft exhibition he opened in Manchester at, if memory serves, the Free Trade Hall. There was an early rendition of Scalectrix there and as I was closest he challenged me to race, he grabbed one of the controllers and said "I'm having the Ferrari". We both went off the table at the first corner and he continued his progress round the hall  chuckling happily. The next month I was going through St Peter's Square when I saw the dreadful headline.

[Eric Dunsdon]

Perhaps that also happened to Hawthorne. He was connected to his time, in his essence, and that is why he was so impressive for boys like the young Doc Knutsen and Mike, here above. But when he died, these boys grew up. And HIS time died, too.

 

Strange.

 

Yes indeed, we did grow up, but most of us never forgot Mike Hawthorn(no e!)  Hawthorn and many others, like Ascari , Collins, Marimon, Behra,

Musso, Castellotti and  Schell were, indeed, boyhood heroes of mine and I have never forgotten them or the cars that they drove so well. Along with Nuvolari and Varzi they have become part of the sports history which continues to intigue and fascinate so many of us. Those,  and many more lesser known drivers remain relevant today, rather than being another topic on a forum.What occurs today holds little interest for me

but the memories of Hawthorn in a  D Type Jaguar or BRM P25, or Behra in a  250F are still what motor racing was/is all about for me.. Their time did not die.

[DoubleM]

I think that you’re right about drivers such as Hawthorn, Collins, Moss,etc. being of their time and connected to it.  That does little, of course, to explain why their memory is so revered, especially by those who were boys at the time.

There were, in those years, a large number of boys who had lost their father during the war.  In addition, there were others whose fathers had failed to make a successful transition from armed forces to ‘civvy street’.  Of those men who returned from the war, many were damaged in ways that were not understood nor tolerated at the time.  Many boys, therefore, grew up in all-female, or predominantly female, households.  Regardless of any feminist argument that men are not an inevitable component of child-rearing, it is an instinctive need in a boy for a father.  Further, there is a similar need for a hero-figure - whether that is the father or not.  In times of uncertainty such as a post-war period, when families are fractured, it is often necessary to cast around for such an heroic figure outside of the domestic sphere.

It is almost impossible to convey to the current generation how limited we were in respect of news.  Basic newspapers and a limited range of magazines.  Apart from the wireless, there was, initially, one television channel and the newsreel at the local cinema.  There was no internet, no mobile phones, no twitter nor Facebook - my daughter, in her thirties, doesn’t quite believe me when I say this and my grandchildren think I’m talking about Roman times!

Sport, too, is unrecognisable from the multi-disciplinary religion it has become.  There was almost no thought to people being paid to play sport and, accordingly, there was very little coverage for the public to either listen to or watch.  Motor racing, however, seemed to transcend this paucity of information and the names of British and Continental racing drivers became household names.  For needy boys of my age, these men were the stuff of heroes and so we scoured everything we could find for news of the activities of our sporting gods.  In an age of social media, it is difficult to comprehend that somebody in the public eye could have a social life without it being splashed across the pages of some scurrilous newspaper or tawdry internet site.  Our heroes were human, it is certain, with all the foibles of human beings.  But we did not know, were not told and were probably too young or naive to know otherwise.  So for us, our heroes ventured forth to give battle and came home victorious.  Because they were so important for us, because we had a high emotional investment in them, when one died it was disproportionately traumatic.  So it was with Mike Hawthorn.  Many boys of my generation felt the same - just the name of the hero was different.

Understand the times, formative for so many of us, and understand also the reason for the almost devotion in which these drivers were held.  It may be difficult for those younger, who have a poster of Jenson Button on the wall or a wallpaper of Lewis Hamilton on his iPhone, to comprehend.  Maybe it’s all of another age - of black and white films, of ration books and trolley-buses - and when we have gone there will only be the documentary records left.  Maybe that’s the best any of us can hope for?

 

Take care - Mike

[Doug Nye]

Indeed the original premise which launched this thread - "Can anyone shed a light on good sources of information and/or why there is so little nostalgia for these guys?" - is misguided and inaccurate. There is plenty of "nostalgia for these guys" amongst those who are a) interested, b) who care, c) who are well informed, or d) were around at the time and remember the stature that each of these great drivers achieved in period. A deficit has been assumed here which I do not believe exists.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 10 November 2014 - 09:27.

[DoubleM]

Bit harsh maybe?  I got the impression that Dunc was seeking to widen his knowledge and put lives into context as well.  I remember, when I came across this wonderful thing called motor racing, there were names like Segrave, Birkin, Dunfee and others about whom there was scant information.  What would I not have given for a resource like this?

 

I recognise that it has gone off-topic to some degree, for which I share partial responsibility, however passing information on to those who follow us is a major part of the rationale of this forum, isn't it?

 

You say that "There is plenty of "nostalgie for these guys" amongst those who are a) interested, b) who care, c) who are well informed, or d) were around at the time and remember the stature that each of these great drivers achieved in period" and I agree with that.  However, if we accept your categories Dunc obviously doesn't fit d, does presumably fit a and b but wishes to 'be (more) well informed'.  And the problem there is......?

 

If nothing else it got a few old boys recollecting their youth, dredging up a few memories and maybe passing on a few bits of relevant information.  Hoped it helped.

 

Take care,

Mike

[john aston]

It's simple- the passage of time means that fewer people every year saw either race. And as Hawthorn has been dead for decades he has been almost entirely out of the public consciousness- unlike Surtees who raced for longer and still has a profile . The fact that he does not seek out publicity quite so overtly as Sir Stirling means that his  profile is lower. I suspect the majority of people , even on here, are hugely interested in the history of the sport since they first became enthused but far less in earlier periods. Obviously there are passionate devotees of pre war racing and good luck to them but in my own case if it was pre 67 my interest wanes until by the time I am in Hawthorn's era I struggle to give the period the attention I am sure it deserves    

[Nemo1965]

Indeed the original premise which launched this thread - "Can anyone shed a light on good sources of information and/or why there is so little nostalgia for these guys?" - is misguided and inaccurate. There is plenty of "nostalgie for these guys" amongst those who are a) interested, b) who care, c) who are well informed, or d) were around at the time and remember the stature that each of these great drivers achieved in period. A deficit has been assumed here which I do not believe exists.

DCN

 

Doug, I don't know if the 'lack of nostalgia' is true, a perception or misguided. For that, I don't know British society well enough. But I do know that fame is a fickle mistress. Some people who die seem to disappear into the past almost overnight, others are being kept alive much more by others, and I find it fascinating to contemplate: why is that?

 

Again, as a foreign observer, my analysis is perhaps of little value. Then again: I was recently watching a documentary about David Campbell. And I followed the soap about the dredging of his boat. And then another documentary followed. Though I was fascinated, I thought at the same time: why all this attention for Campbell?

 

For example: has the BBC ever made a full documentary about Hawthorne?

[ensign14]

I thought of suggesting his two autobiographies.  But they are in the "next week we went to Silverstone" genre and tell very little about the man's personality. 

 

I think that's a bit harsh.  They're obviously not the whole truth but you get things like e.g. taking Harry Schell's bubblecar up to his hotel room and Gonzalez' loss of heart for the sport.

[Tim Murray]

Nemo, for the third time (see Sharman's and Eric Dunsdon's posts above) THERE IS NO 'E' IN HAWTHORN.

 

(and who is David Campbell?)

[DoubleM]

Guessing that's Donald then!  Another boyhood hero for many of my age.  Obviously we didn't know anything about the tortured relationship with his father, Sir Malcolm - and wouldn't have understood it if we had.  Maybe, with Donald Campbell, Hawthorn, Moss, etc we saw in them what a previous generation had seen in the Battle of Britain pilots, Guy Gibson and others of a similar ilk.  Tellingly, Piers Courage is supposed to have replied to his father, when asked why he participated in such a dangerous sport, words to the effect that 'You had the war, I didn't'.

 

And why the repeated showing of the Bluebird accident?  Campbell is a figure embedded in the folklore.  The sucessive generations of land and water speed records, the Bluebird thread running through the lineage.  In other circumstances, it could be regarded as a 'great' story and worth the re-telling.

 

Take care

Mike

[Nemo1965]

Nemo, for the third time (see Sharman's and Eric Dunsdon's posts above) THERE IS NO 'E' IN HAWTHORN.

 

(and who is David Campbell?)

 

Sorry, sorry. About Donald and David and the extra 'E'.  I should not post while working. And the 'E' in Hawthorn, I don't know why that keeps creeping in. I have the same problem with Aerton, I mean, Ayrton Senna and Mark Donohue.

Edited by Nemo1965, 10 November 2014 - 10:46.

[LotusElise]

<snip>

 

And why the repeated showing of the Bluebird accident?  Campbell is a figure embedded in the folklore.  The sucessive generations of land and water speed records, the Bluebird thread running through the lineage.  In other circumstances, it could be regarded as a 'great' story and worth the re-telling.

 

Take care

Mike

 

That's an interesting question - the Bluebird accident has captured the public imagination for a very long time.

 

My only theory is that there was a continuing drama around Bluebird, with Campbell's missing body and the sunken wreck still out there. This has been propagated by Gina Campbell and other interested parties over the years, but it had remarkable longevity.

 

In a way, it is similar to the stories of Lord Lucan, Shergar or the Great Train Robbers; the story had not ended, and there was still room for speculation.

 

Mike Hawthorn's story had a definite, unequivocal end, with no mystery around it, and no widowed bride or aggrieved family members to fan the flames of publicity.

 

Conversely, John Surtees is still around, and seems actively to discourage media interest in him.

[Nemo1965]

That's an interesting question - the Bluebird accident has captured the public imagination for a very long time.

 

My only theory is that there was a continuing drama around Bluebird, with Campbell's missing body and the sunken wreck still out there. This has been propagated by Gina Campbell and other interested parties over the years, but it had remarkable longevity.

 

In a way, it is similar to the stories of Lord Lucan, Shergar or the Great Train Robbers; the story had not ended, and there was still room for speculation.

 

Mike Hawthorn's story had a definite, unequivocal end, with no mystery around it, and no widowed bride or aggrieved family members to fan the flames of publicity.

 

Excellent post!   Why do Americans still talk about Jimmy Hoffa, while there have dozens of other famous - and murdered! - union-guys with ties to the maffia? Because his body was never found. Amelia Earhart? Twenty years ago already part of her bones were found on an island. But her disappearance was just too good a story. So Discovery Channel and National Geographic keep solving the mystery.

 

Mike's end was indeed very unequivocal. Rob Walker, the witness, was impossible to distrust. No speculation left.

[Sharman]

????

[D28]

 

 

Conversely, John Surtees is still around, and seems actively to discourage media interest in him.

 

This is a point worth consideration; individual personality has a great deal to do with how retired drivers remain in the public eye.

The original post contrasted Moss and Stewart with Surtees in this regard. I have never met any of the three gentlemen, but my impression is that Moss and Stewart are extroverted personalities and put considerable effort into remaining associated with motor sport in the public perception. Both travel extensively appearing at public events or representing companies, in sense this is their second career. Surtees may simple be a more retiring sort; lately he has put a great deal of effort into the Henry Surtees Foundation.

I also second what Doug Nye said about Surtees; in no way are his considerable contributions to motor sport being forgotten or ignored.

He is now the oldest remaining World Champion, that alone should be enough to keep his memory alive.