96 replies to this topic

[RS2000]

RW the witness impossible to distrust. In later years maybe but, by his own admission, not quite so much towards the coroner at the time.

[Sharman]

RS2000, on 10 Nov 2014 - 20:26, said:

RW the witness impossible to distrust. In later years maybe but, by his own admission, not quite so much towards the coroner at the time.

Hence my ????

[Nemo1965]

Hence my ????

 

Oh sorry. I did not understand your question. I gathered most who came here knew...

 

Okay, in the risk of stating the obvious: Mike Hawthorn died on January 27, 1959. He was driving towards Guilford when saw Rob Walker in his car - who still raced himself back then, if I am right - and overtook him very quickly, as a bit of a joke presumably. To quote Doug Nye: 'Typically Hawthorn, he grinned and waved two fingers as he hurtled by in his Jaguar-saloon, but racing down the off the Hogs Back hill he lost control on a wet patch, the Jaguar jack-knifed around a tree, and it was a shattered Rob Walker who found Britain's first World Champion Driver, lying in the wreckage, dead...'

 

Rob Walker had nothing to gain by calling Mike 'a reckless racer', like perhaps an random witness would have, and I also think that at that time he had no reason to embellish the circumstances of the accident. Hence, no mystery, no long 'but what if's' like surrounded the death of James Dean, Buddy Holly, etcetera.

Edited by Nemo1965, 10 November 2014 - 21:37.

[Doug Nye]

Sorry, but even that is not completely true. Dear old Rob patently lied at the coroner's inquest when asked about the speed he and Mike were doing when the Jaguar went out of control. I think given the circumstances, if I'd been him I would have done so too. Subsequent reports that the Jaguar was fitted with a hand throttle which might have jammed somehow seemed to appeal to controversialists. Prototype Dunlop Duraband tyres and their frighteningly unprogressive cornering characteristics also created considerable debate. A tiny faction seemed to be attempting to pin some blame for the outcome on Mr Rice (? memory?), driver of the lorry who happened to be grinding his way innocently uphill when Hawthorn winged his vehicle. And then there's the story that Rob actually paused en route to Guildford outside Mike's TT Garage in Farnham, and 'lured' him into the chase...well aware that the sight of Rob's Mercedes 300SL would be a red rag to a bull where the Jaguar star was concerned. It was plainly all a bit of fun that went horribly wrong - but how long, how big, a bit of fun was it really? Only Rob could answer that, and while he wrote often and spoke often of the events of that day, I am confident that he never quite told us the complete story. And he told us much more than he ever did to the Coroner and the police authority at the time. Nothing he could have said would bring Mike back. So a gentleman simply kept unpalatable memories to himself.

DCN

[Nemo1965]

Sorry, but even that is not completely true. Dear old Rob patently lied at the coroner's inquest when asked about the speed he and Mike were doing when the Jaguar went out of control. I think given the circumstances, if I'd been him I would have done so too. Subsequent reports that the Jaguar was fitted with a hand throttle which might have jammed somehow seemed to appeal to controversialists. Prototype Dunlop Duraband tyres and their frighteningly unprogressive cornering characteristics also created considerable debate. A tiny faction seemed to be attempting to pin some blame for the outcome on Mr Rice (? memory?), driver of the lorry who happened to be grinding his way innocently uphill when Hawthorn winged his vehicle. And then there's the story that Rob actually paused en route to Guildford outside Mike's TT Garage in Farnham, and 'lured' him into the chase...well aware that the sight of Rob's Mercedes 300SL would be a red rag to a bull where the Jaguar star was concerned. It was plainly all a bit of fun that went horribly wrong - but how long, how big, a bit of fun was it really? Only Rob could answer that, and while he wrote often and spoke often of the events of that day, I am confident that he never quite told us the complete story. And he told us much more than he ever did to the Coroner and the police authority at the time. Nothing he could have said would bring Mike back. So a gentleman simply kept unpalatable memories to himself.

DCN

 

Thanks. I read about some of the stuff you describe so eloquently above, but I did not want to muddy the water. All I wanted to convey (because of the question) was an extra reason why, as LotusElise posted, 'Mike Hawthorn's story had a definite, unequivocal end, with no mystery around it, and no widowed bride or aggrieved family members to fan the flames of publicity'.

 

Regards,

Nemo.

[Sharman]

Nemo1965, on 10 Nov 2014 - 22:33, said:

Oh sorry. I did not understand your question. I gathered most who came here knew...

 

Okay, in the risk of stating the obvious: Mike Hawthorn died on January 27, 1959. He was driving towards Guilford when saw Rob Walker in his car - who still raced himself back then, if I am right - and overtook him very quickly, as a bit of a joke presumably. To quote Doug Nye: 'Typically Hawthorn, he grinned and waved two fingers as he hurtled by in his Jaguar-saloon, but racing down the off the Hogs Back hill he lost control on a wet patch, the Jaguar jack-knifed around a tree, and it was a shattered Rob Walker who found Britain's first World Champion Driver, lying in the wreckage, dead...'

 

Rob Walker had nothing to gain by calling Mike 'a reckless racer', like perhaps an random witness would have, and I also think that at that time he had no reason to embellish the circumstances of the accident. Hence, no mystery, no long 'but what if's' like surrounded the death of James Dean, Buddy Holly, etcetera.

"Anything you say may be taken down and used in evidence against you" A general Police caution in those days, no longer in quite the same form today, but carrying much the same implication. In other words RRCW could not be expected to say "OK Guvnor it's a fair cop. We wuz dicing". Which was patently and obviously the truth of the matter. No doubt he felt very badly about the accident but logically, and in my mind sensibly, he did not want to be prosecuted for "Racing on the Public Roads" which in turn, if proven,could have led on to more serious charges. 

I apologise if you missed the cynicism in my ????

[Nemo1965]

"Anything you say may be taken down and used in evidence against you" A general Police caution in those days, no longer in quite the same form today, but carrying much the same implication. In other words RRCW could not be expected to say "OK Guvnor it's a fair cop. We wuz dicing". Which was patently and obviously the truth of the matter. No doubt he felt very badly about the accident but logically, and in my mind sensibly, he did not want to be prosecuted for "Racing on the Public Roads" which in turn, if proven,could have led on to more serious charges. 

I apologise if you missed the cynicism in my ????

 

Yes, I missed the cynicism. Though, I think you mean sarcasm. Whatever: I just did not know if you knew about Rob Walker being part of the accident. And the thread was started by a 'youngster', eager to learn, and I gathered he might now know about it as well.

 

Anyway, of course people who knew Rob Walker, people who knew Mike Hawthorn, knew it was a dice. But I think the general public trusted Rob Walkers testimony, and most certainly if Mike had been alone, or without an 'driving'-expert close by, the speculation about his death would haven much, much bigger.

 

Have a nice day, regards!

[Sharman]

Cynicism is a suspicion of, and a contempt for, human motives. As a native English speaker a sarcastic response would be you are obviously such an expert in all things that I must bow to your superior knowledge. In a porcine rectum!

[Nemo1965]

Cynicism is a suspicion of, and a contempt for, human motives. As a native English speaker a sarcastic response would be you are obviously such an expert in all things that I must bow to your superior knowledge. In a porcine rectum!

 

Now you are really being sarcastic! And I am not a native speaker. I do know that there can no exact definition given for either irony, sarcasm or cynicism.   Hey, don't get me wrong. I did not take the hint the first time. I just thought in the sequence: 'Rob Walker was a witness that was impossible to distrust.' Reply: '???'

 

That I would take as sarcasm.

 

'Rob Walker was a witness that was impossible to distrust.' Reply: '!!!'

 

That I would take as cynicism.

 

Rob Walker was a witness that was impossible to distrust.' Reply: ' '

 

That I would take as irony.

 

This is all in good fun, but if I annoyed you in any way, I apologise. I am a gentleman, I really am.

[Sharman]

OK, agreed! What I meant by ???? was that I viewed the remark about it was impossible to distrust RRCW's statement with a large degree of scepticism as I regarded his evidence as slanted towards self-preservation, which I think you must agree is cynical of me. I would not say outright that the honourable gentleman lied, only that he was economical with the truth, which is litotes! And honest, I'm not being sarcastic.

[kayemod]

OK, agreed! What I meant by ???? was that I viewed the remark about it was impossible to distrust RRCW's statement with a large degree of scepticism as I regarded his evidence as slanted towards self-preservation, which I think you must agree is cynical of me. I would not say outright that the honourable gentleman lied, only that he was economical with the truth, which is litotes! And honest, I'm not being sarcastic.

 

All understandable Mr Sharman Sir, non-native UK English speakers often find it impossible to differentiate between sarcasm, cynicism, scepticism and irony, but the rest of us all knew what you meant..

[D-Type]

As a native speaker I find it difficult on occasions.  The written word cannot convey the tone in which something is said.

[D-Type]

On a slightly more serious note, it has suddenly dawned on me that the 300SL was a far faster car than the 3.4 Jaguar even if you take the differing abilities of the drivers into account..  If Rob had been 'pushing it' then Mike would have been hard-pressed to keep up.  Perhaps he was simply trying too hard when he 'lost it'.  The unpredictable breakaway of the Dunlop Durabands can't have helped.  And the oncoming truck exacerbated the situation.  A classic case of "the holes lined up".

[kayemod]

As a native speaker I find it difficult on occasions.  The written word cannot convey the tone in which something is said.

 

 

I suppose you think that's ironic...

 

On your second point though, wasn't Mike's Jaguar somewhat "improved" to make it faster than standard?

[D-Type]

On your second point though, wasn't Mike's Jaguar somewhat "improved" to make it faster than standard?

Yes it was, but it still wouldn't have been anywhere near a 300SL.

[Tim Murray]

The improvements to Mike’s 3.4 Jaguar are detailed on Tony Bailey’s Hawthorn site:

http://www.mike-hawt...uk/finality.php

The engine modifications included high-compression pistons, larger carburettors, a specially made exhaust system and a competition clutch. The website also includes the road test carried out by David Phipps for Motor Racing magazine:

http://www.mike-hawt...g.uk/dp-vdu.php

which includes this paragraph:
 

The only other major departure from standard on the Hawthorn Jaguar is the fitting of a crown wheel and pinion which give a final drive ratio of 4.05 to 1 (standard is 3.77 to 1), Mike’s reason for this is simple; he doesn’t like being out-accelerated by “Kraut cars”, referring to a well-known species with an unusual method of door opening.

From the sound of things the modified Jag's performance would have been fairly close to the 300SL.
 

[Sharman]

Added to which JMH was the current World Champion and RRCW was a "Gentleman Driver"

[D-Type]

Surely it's a compromise?  A [numerically] higher final drive ratio lowers the gearing which improves acceleration at the expense of top speed.  Even if JMH could accelerate faster at lower speeds, as the speeds rose the advantage would move across to RRCW.

[Doug Nye]

Absolutely right. Mike was a notably 'unrestrained' driver amongst everyday traffic on the public road. Indeed I know some who rode with him or tried to drive in convoy with him who describe him as relying upon his own skills so much that he was in effect an accident on the public road just waiting to happen. Rob's Mercedes might have had an advantage right up at the top end of the performance envelope, but having just come down to a 'give way' road junction, and then accelerating away downhill through a series of curves, the lower-geared Jaguar was probably much faster just before the incident began.

No cynicism, sarcasm nor irony intended.

DCN

[Paulleek]

On a slightly more serious note, it has suddenly dawned on me that the 300SL was a far faster car than the 3.4 Jaguar even if you take the differing abilities of the drivers into account..  If Rob had been 'pushing it' then Mike would have been hard-pressed to keep up.  Perhaps he was simply trying too hard when he 'lost it'.  The unpredictable breakaway of the Dunlop Durabands can't have helped.  And the oncoming truck exacerbated the situation.  A classic case of "the holes lined up".

 

Also, D-Type, there were the weather conditions. It sounds as if it was a truly horrible day, extremely wet, and with gusts of wind.

 

It's anyone's guess I suppose, but the behaviour of the Durabands coupled with a gust of wind on a greasy road would have been difficult to deal with, even for this talented driver.

[kayemod]

Sorry, but even that is not completely true. Dear old Rob patently lied at the coroner's inquest when asked about the speed he and Mike were doing when the Jaguar went out of control.

DCN

 

Maybe, but there is just an outside chance that he wasn't. Talking about the Facel Vega that he owned some time after the 300SL, Rob said that initially his wife refused to drive it, saying that it was "Much too fast for her". Accordingly, Rob somehow had the speedometer re-calibrated, so that when the car was travelling at 100mph, the speedo showed much less, and apparently Mrs Rob was happy quite happy with this, though presumably she didn't know what Rob had done. This appears in one of the RRCW biographies, though I forget which one, it could be Private Entrant. No idea  if its Mercedes predecessor had the same treatment, but if so Rob could say, hand on heart under oath, "The speedo only showed 59½ mph, M'lud/honour/worship".

 

It's far-fetched I grant you, but this information is offered with no trace of sarcasm, cynicism or irony.

[Nemo1965]

It's far-fetched I grant you, but this information is offered with no trace of sarcasm, cynicism or irony.

 

Okay, okay, why do feel the words 'mickey' 'taking', 'me' 'out of', bubble up in my mind?

[Sharman]

If the Dutch cap fits..........

Edited by Sharman, 12 November 2014 - 07:51.

[Nemo1965]

If the Dutch cap fits..........

 

'If the wooden shoe fits', would be a better analogy!

 

But enough of this nonsense!

 

Absolutely right. Mike was a notably 'unrestrained' driver amongst everyday traffic on the public road. Indeed I know some who rode with him or tried to drive in convoy with him who describe him as relying upon his own skills so much that he was in effect an accident on the public road just waiting to happen. Rob's Mercedes might have had an advantage right up at the top end of the performance envelope, but having just come down to a 'give way' road junction, and then accelerating away downhill through a series of curves, the lower-geared Jaguar was probably much faster just before the incident began.
 

 

I have a friend who went hitch-hiking to France when he was sixteen. He got a ride around Utrecht from a Dutch gentleman in a very sleek sportscar (my friend has no interest or knowledge about fast cars), but from the careful description of the rather posh gentleman I can gather that it was Dutch F1-driver Carel Godin de Beaufort. According to my friend, the driver said: 'Well, because you are in the car, I will take it easy.' Then, in the words of my friend followed this: BRAAAAAAA. BRAAAAA. BRRAAAA. IEEEEEEE. BRAAAAA.'

 

After an hour or so, suddenly, the car came to a screeching halt. When my friend had picked himself up from the floor, he noticed there was another car parked next to the one he was sitting in. Another, comparable, low sleek model, not identified. The window was rolled down. Another gentleman, with about the same general attitude as the man who gave my friend a lift. There followed a mocking, insulting and yet appreciative conversation, with a lot of 'darlings,' and 'Well, really, mon amour?' 'So why not try your car all the way to Paris?' 'I would love to, but I have to go to Stuttgart, you know.'

 

The conversation was ended, the other car sped off in the opposite direction, the original driver turned to my friend and said: 'Well, that was a bit of a delay. I am sorry, but now I really have to put the hammer down.' And then followed: BRAAAAAAA. BRAAAAA. BRRAAAA. IEEEEEEE. BRAAAAA.'BRAAAAAAA. BRAAAAA. BRRAAAA. IEEEEEEE. BRAAAAA.'

 

I always think of this story when I think of Mike Hawthorn. The mocking, the challenging,  the resulting race to the next town. I think many of the professional racing drivers in the 50's and 60's were lunatics on the public roads. While I think that Nico Rosberg - who does not even seem to own  car - has never got a speeding ticket...

[Roger Clark]

Mike Hawthorn was not unique, nor even unusual among racing drivers of his time in his attitude to road driving,  Stories of Moss's escapades could make an enjoyable thread (if they haven't already) and there were many others.  One young hothead apparently drove non-stop in poor weather from Paris to Monza (over the Alps) and got into a racing car soon after arriving.  He nearly killed himself but he did recover to do fairly well.

Edited by Roger Clark, 12 November 2014 - 09:09.

[Dipster]

Whilst we are talking of aces of their day one must remember that the roads were very different back then. Both in their quality but also the number of cars on them. My brother and I both started driving at about that time and for a good few years we had a lot of fun on British roads. No MOTs, speed limits, no speed bumps......

 

Nowadays I try to avoid driving in the UK as I always seem to fall foul of some motoring law or another. It is not much fun anymore.

[D-Type]

Mike Hawthorn was not unique, nor even unusual among racing drivers of his time in his attitude to road driving,  Stories of Moss's escapades could make an enjoyable thread (if they haven't already) and there were many others.  One young hothead apparently drove non-stop in poor weather from Paris to Monza (over the Alps) and got into a racing car soon after arriving.  He nearly killed himself but he did recover to do fairly well.

That 'young hothead' was 41 - hardly young - unless compared to thee or me.

But you are correct about the drivers' attitudes - Even Tony Brooks has tales to tell!

Edited by D-Type, 12 November 2014 - 10:59.

[Tim Murray]

That 'young hothead' was 41 ...

Not quite - he was just over a fortnight short of his 41st birthday.

[Eric Dunsdon]

Added to which JMH was the current World Champion and RRCW was a "Gentleman Driver"

Indeed. Such a gentleman that he once called at the pits during a Le Mans 24Hour race on the sunday morning in order to change into a Prince Of Wales check suit, and brown shoes as he was in the country.

[kayemod]

Mike Hawthorn was not unique, nor even unusual among racing drivers of his time in his attitude to road driving...

 

 

One good example of this was Roy Salvadori, who apparently was a real tear-arse when driving on public roads. A friend of my father's knew Roy well, and often accompanied him to races. I remember him telling us that Roy would never stop for lunch at any establishment with a car park visible from the road. This was in case someone he'd carved up along the way spotted their car and came inside to try to sort Roy out.

[Glengavel]

Sepaking of gentlemanly behaviour, one story I recall (origin and veracity unknown) about Hawthorn was a Grand Prix(?) where the BRM V16 was entered. As the cars lined up on the start grid, with Hawthorn at the front in a Ferrari, the BRM suddenly (OK, perhaps not so suddenly) developed an engine problem. Hawthorn got out of the Ferrari and wandered over to the BRM, telling the mechanics "keep at it lads, they can't start the race until I'm back in the car".

[Charlieman]

Hawthorn got out of the Ferrari and wandered over to the BRM, telling the mechanics "keep at it lads, they can't start the race until I'm back in the car".

The story can be found in the book BRM by Raymond Mays and Peter Benson. The BRM was more likely to be the 2 1/2 litre.

[Tim Murray]

The event was the Formule Libre race at Turnberry in Scotland in August 1952. Hawthorn was driving the Thinwall Special Ferrari, with Reg Parnell and Ken Wharton in V16 BRMs. Parnell's BRM had been suffering a persistent leak from one of the high-pressure fuel lines, which they were still trying to fix on the grid. As stated, Hawthorn got out of his car and waited until the work was complete, then said 'Right, let's go racing' and got back into his car. Sadly, after this sporting gesture he suffered gearbox problems which delayed him at the start when he had difficulty finding a gear. There's a photo in BRM Vol 1 showing Mike standing by the BRM watching the work, wearing his bow tie, of course.

Edited by Tim Murray, 12 November 2014 - 16:01.

[D-Type]

Not quite - he was just over a fortnight short of his 41st birthday.

  Well, if you must split hairs!

 

At my [our?] age mental arithmetic isn't my strong point.

[Tim Murray]

 

Nor mine, Duncan. Now, what was it I was going to do before being diverted by your post ...

[Michael Ferner]

Mike Hawthorn was not unique, nor even unusual among racing drivers of his time in his attitude to road driving,  Stories of Moss's escapades could make an enjoyable thread (if they haven't already) and there were many others.  One young hothead apparently drove non-stop in poor weather from Paris to Monza (over the Alps) and got into a racing car soon after arriving.  He nearly killed himself but he did recover to do fairly well.

Perhaps 'minding your core business', i.e. finding and posting links to existing TNF threads that are mentioned on the go.

[HistoryFan]

I heard that Hawthorn was Ferrari's number one driver in 1958 and got better technical material. So I read that he was the only Ferrari driver who was using disc brakes instead of drum brakes. Why? Why didn't Ferrari support all drivers equal?

[LittleChris]

I heard that Hawthorn was Ferrari's number one driver in 1958 and got better technical material. So I read that he was the only Ferrari driver who was using disc brakes instead of drum brakes. Why? Why didn't Ferrari support all drivers equal?

Thought that the use of disc brakes by Ferrari was after both Musso & Collins were dead so was to aid Hawthorn in his fight against Moss ?

Edited by LittleChris, 06 December 2014 - 00:55.

[D-Type]

I think that the way it worked was that all Ferrari drivers were equal until one showed himself to be better, ie more successful.  He then got no, 1 driver treatment.  Hawthorn had pointed out some deficiencies of the Dino 246 to the Commendatore and the brakes being inferior to discs was one of them.  As Peter Collins had fitted discs to his 250GT the team were able to evaluate them.  Having convinced themselves of their effectiveness and that there were no possible problems they modified the cars and fitted the first set to Hawthorn's car as he was the de facto team leader particularly after the deaths of Musso and Collins. Had they had any doubts they would have given them to a junior driver first.  By 1959 they were a standard fitment on the team cars.

[Sharman]

Didn't I read somewhere that the actual brakes themselves were those fitted to Collins' road car and were transferred with Louise's permission?

[Allan Lupton]

Didn't I read somewhere that the actual brakes themselves were those fitted to Collins' road car and were transferred with Louise's permission?

You can read that in countless places, but that doen't mean it is true.

Proper historians have concluded that it was a myth - whom it was started by is not clear, nor is the point.

Chris Nixon, in Mon Ami Mate, included the real story, as explained to him by Harold Hodkinson of Dunlop, who fitted the brakes to the Dino 246. (pp341-2 if you want to look it up)

Edited by Allan Lupton, 06 December 2014 - 08:40.

[Tim Murray]

I don't have access to Mon Ami Mate, so can't check which part of Sharman's post is myth. The story as told in Champion Year is as follows. After his brake problems in Portugal, Mike was pushing Ferrari hard to get disc brakes fitted to his car for Monza. Peter Collins had had Dunlop disc brakes fitted to his 250GT, and shortly before his death had driven the car to Maranello for Ferrari to take a look at. The car had remained at Maranello, so Ferrari agreed to transfer the brakes to the Grand Prix car. Hawthorn contacted Dunlops to see if they minded, and they sent two technicians (Harold Hodgkinson and Maurice Roe) down to assist with the installation, which necessitated the manufacture of new hubs and wheels along with several other minor items. The car was finished just in time for Monza.

Louise came to the race at Ferrari’s invitation, and told Mike that someone was coming out to look at the 250GT with a view to buying it. Mike then had to explain that he had borrowed the discs from it – he says she took the news very well, as did the potential buyer.

In Casablanca Mike again used his disc-braked car. Phil Hill’s car had drums, whilst Gendebien had a car fitted with Girling discs for comparison purposes. For 1959 Dunlop discs were fitted as standard.

 

ETA: the story that the discs came off Collins' 250GT appears also in Ferrari by Tanner & Nye (5th edition) and Ferrari: The Grand Prix Cars by Alan Henry

Edited by Tim Murray, 06 December 2014 - 09:28.

[Allan Lupton]

The brakes were not transferred - the myth is that they were.

I can say that to fit Dunlop brakes to Peter Collins' road car they had had to fit Dunlop wheels as well, since there wasn't space for the caliper in the Ferrari wheel.

The simple quote from Hodkinson in Mon Ami Mate is:

"We used nothing from Peter's car and I don't know how that story started. Possibly Mike thought it was just a simple job of transferring the brakes from one car to the other and told people that was what had been done, but in fact the two brake installations were incompatible. Everything we fitted to Mike's Dino was brand-new, but we didn't object to his version. The publicity we got for using production disc brakes on a leading Grand Prix contender didn't do Dunlop any harm at all."

[Sharman]

I've not read Mon Ami Mate, I keep dropping hints around Birthday and Christmas but no biters as yet. As an impoverished pensioner, as when I was an impoverished student, something prevents me from squandering beer money on mere possessions.

I went to a lot of motor races in my time and very rarely was it necessary to pay to get in, I always knew somebody. Mind you it cuts the other way, if I had access so did all my mates.

[Tim Murray]

The simple quote from Hodkinson in Mon Ami Mate is:
"We used nothing from Peter's car and I don't know how that story started. Possibly Mike thought it was just a simple job of transferring the brakes from one car to the other and told people that was what had been done, but in fact the two brake installations were incompatible. Everything we fitted to Mike's Dino was brand-new, but we didn't object to his version. The publicity we got for using production disc brakes on a leading Grand Prix contender didn't do Dunlop any harm at all."

Thanks Allan. In trying to reconcile the two versions, I'm guessing that they took the discs off the road car with the intention of fitting them to the GP car, but the Dunlop people knocked this plan on the head when they arrived, and did the job properly.

Edited by Tim Murray, 06 December 2014 - 10:17.

[Roger Clark]

DSJ said that Hawthorn's brakes had been acquired from Collins' road car. "There was no connection between Dunlop and Ferrari although a fitter had been loaned to Maranello to help with assembly". Notes on the Cars, October 1958.

Edited by Roger Clark, 06 December 2014 - 14:23.

[Sharman]

Roger Clark, on 06 Dec 2014 - 15:22, said:

DSJ said that Hawthorn's brakes had been acquired from Collins' road car. "There was no connection between Dunlop and Ferrari although a fitter had been loaned to Maranello to help with assembly". Notes on the Cars, October 1958.

My likely source, I read EVERYTHING in MS in those days, even the ads were interesting unlike today where megabucks are involved for ANYTHING.