61 replies to this topic

[KWSN - DSM]

'Facts'

 

Caterham and Marrussia seem to be toast, I do not expect either to rise from the ashes, the resulting small grid and general impact on F1 have been extensively covered by Autosport in:

 

http://plus.autospor...6492.1408896330  = Gary and Finance.

 

http://plus.autospor...6492.1408896330  = Dieter and inevitability.

 

http://plus.autospor...id-size-matter/    = Edd talking grid size.

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/116518   = Jonathan and fiscal viability.

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/116519   = Jonathan, Edd and Ben discussing crisis or not.

 

Substantial coverage, post after post after post in thread after thread after thread in the forum.

 

We all ask why the powers can not see the writing on the wall, we all have our views and opinions on what would and could remedy the woes and ill's, in general we do not all agree so there is that, we do all agree (I think) that something is very very amiss though. One of the oft quoted reasons are money, money, money the clearly unfair distribution of income, and the staggering cost of actually competing, as we learned from the article above Marussia as the rear of the grid and lowest budget needed Usd 120 million for the 2014 season.

 

'Conspiracy Theory'

 

Is this all a well-made and well executed plan by the mastermind Jean Todt? Is he purposely driving F1 over the cliff, in order to have the Championship battled out in a lower class formulas as in 1953 where it was run to the F2 regulations? Is this a way to throw of the shackles of a 100 year contract with a Commercial Rights holder, which is draining the blood from the sport?

 

'Opinion'

 

Something must drive exceptionally gifted people to drive towards extinction with their eyes wide open. For now I settle on this being a Grand Master-plan by one of the shrewdest individuals to ever work in F1, questions are raised 'where is Jean?' I think he is right there in his Parisian lair planning the F1 coup of the Century.

 

[Alfisti]

It better be or Todt is useless. He's invisible. 

[ensign14]

More protectionism than conspiracy.  Trying to keep Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren and (to a lesser extent) Mercedes and Williams sweet, has meant that everyone else is on the outside and can't break in.  You can see in those articles how Bernie killed Marussia by refusing to pay them prize money. 

 

The thing with Bernie is he is not a long-termer.  He is the great improviser.  But sometimes he does things that make no long-term sense.  Look at Brabham in 1976.  A year in which the world title went to a playboy in a 4 year old car.  Brabham had Reutemann, Pace and Gordon Murray.  But Bernie would rather have Alfa give him money than give Cosworth money.  That cost Brabham the title, surely.  And Brabham never won a WCC under Ecclestone; when they had Piquet winning races, they tended to have wastes of space like Zunino or Hesnault buying the second seat.

[panzani]

Isn't this PC? Why a(n) RC thread in here?

[KWSN - DSM]

Isn't this PC? Why a(n) RC thread in here?

 

If mods can move it over and think it does they can go ahead. I consider this more of a talk over a pint or two in the pub, which is what the Paddock is no?

 

[Nonesuch]

Something must drive exceptionally gifted people to drive towards extinction with their eyes wide open.

 

There were some 'exceptionally gifted people' in the news in recent years who did just that; all it takes is some short-term profit.

 

Todt's role in this was discussed in the Racing Comments recently. To summarize, I think he's acting more like a FIA president is supposed to than Mosley did. However, this does make one wonder if it's in the best interest of F1, the FIA and the teams to have F1's daily management so fragmented and influenced by the likes of Ecclestone. Perhaps it's time the FIA appoints someone to handle F1's affairs in so far as they are relevant to the FIA.
 

Isn't this PC? Why a(n) RC thread in here?

 

It's a conspiracy theory, and in an unusual turn of events it's even advertised as such!

Edited by Nonesuch, 29 October 2014 - 17:20.

[panzani]

Q.E.D.! If it is a conspiracy theory than RC is just about conspiracy theories, isn't it? When was the last time it wasn't? When biranit was aboard, perhaps?

[ExFlagMan]

If you want conspiracy theory then how about this.

Bernie is deliberately steering F1 over the cliff so that CVC panic and opt for a fire-sale - Bernie steps in and offers to take it off their hands for peanuts and becomes the (even richer) hero rather than the villain.

[superden]

Tin foil hats, £4 each or 3 for £10.

[ExFlagMan]

But if Bernie is selling them then you have to sign a contract to buy a whole 10 seasons worth and each year the price goes up by 15%. And you only get the discount if you make it to the end of the contract.

[Afterburner]

I've long decided I wouldn't be surprised if I found out F1's ruling powers were guiding it off a cliff intentionally. For every theory like this, though, there's got to be a motive, and I don't see it here. Being so power-hungry as to need full control of F1 doesn't match Todt's character; it matches Bernie's, but if CVC calls his bluff and allows F1 to die then he's got nothing to buy back (which might not concern him, but you never know).

Interesting thread.

Edited by Afterburner, 29 October 2014 - 18:35.

[fykcha]

Is it time to plan for a breakaway series?

[ExFlagMan]

The FIA probably have a cupboard full of such plans that all came to nought!

[KWSN - DSM]

The breakaway series is not possible by the FIA, and tracks can not host any races sanctioned by the FIA if they host the breakaway races. Todt's motive in this would not be for power, but for praying F1 back before have to be from Bernie's cold, dead hands.

 

[fykcha]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but what stops the FIA from creating a similar series to F1 but with a different name to cut Bernie out of the equation?

[scheivlak]

Todt made a, maybe not very convincing, appeal for cost cutting halfway this season and it fell completely on deaf ears. I guess he then decided to let it all rot further, with the view that the crisis was not deep enough for some of the main players to come into action. It will be very interesting what he will do next. His relationship with Bernie is extremely cold by the looks of it and it's quite imageable that he secretely hopes that Bernie falls in his own sword.

 

Mercedes might be a partner for him in all this. They are left out of the profitable and exclusive deals that Bernie made with Ferrari, Red Bull and possibly McLaren as well. Together with Williams, Force India and Lotus (all clients or soon to be clients!) they might provide a leverage to change things, possibly even with an appeal to the EU.

 

Just some guessing of course.

[scheivlak]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but what stops the FIA from creating a similar series to F1 but with a different name to cut Bernie out of the equation?

Quite possibly the 100 year contract that Max made with Bernie several years ago.

No doubt Jean is looking for every chance to use a possible opt-out clause and Bernie is thinking all the time how to counter them in that case.

[sopa]

I don't exactly know, which plans or ideas could Todt have with F1, but it seems he is pretty excited about Formula E. Maybe in his vision he sees those two series united in the future, but for that to happen F1 needs to be weaker and the two series would need to be somewhat on an even playing field. Otherwise one would just swallow the other up.

[JoseArrogantio]

The breakaway series is not possible by the FIA, and tracks can not host any races sanctioned by the FIA if they host the breakaway races. Todt's motive in this would not be for power, but for praying F1 back before have to be from Bernie's cold, dead hands.

 

 

Why is a FIA breakaway series not posssible? They already have Formula E so they can setup rival single seater series even if it is a very small rival.

[KWSN - DSM]

Why is a FIA breakaway series not posssible? They already have Formula E so they can setup rival single seater series even if it is a very small rival.

 

The FIA can make any and all series they want, however they do have a 100 year binding contract for F1 to be the premier series, and for F1 be the name under which it is conducted. I would imagine but naturally have zero knowledge that a lot of legalese also block them from overtly creating a new replacement series for F1.

 

[Lotus53B]

The FIA can make any and all series they want, however they do have a 100 year binding contract for F1 to be the premier series, and for F1 be the name under which it is conducted. I would imagine but naturally have zero knowledge that a lot of legalese also block them from overtly creating a new replacement series for F1.

 

Erm, what do you mean by "premier series"?

 

The public vote to decide the premier series by bums on seats.

[KWSN - DSM]

Erm, what do you mean by "premier series"?

 

The public vote to decide the premier series by bums on seats.

 

Pardon me for the words I chose, premier, pinnacle, best of the best.. F1 is presumed to be this, the contract with the Commercial Rights holder surely hold some sort of verbage to that effect.

 

[Lotus53B]

I think that the FIA will ratify any Formula that meets the relevant criteria.

The commercial rights holder negotiates with tracks, and can - and repeatedly has - prevented a direct comparison by, e.g. forbidding any F1 circuit holding CART races (okay, that dates me...)

 

I don't think that Bernie could (legally...*) stymie any new formula.

 

*(Obviously that doesn't prevent old boys' networking, you scratch my back , I'll stab yours, etc...)

[LoginError]

If the commercial rights would be returned to the FIA, Todt needs to find a new buyer because of competition laws, so hunger for power won't be a motivation for him. It might however be the only solution for real change to take place. But just imagine the legal wranglings if FIA would claim ownership of the commercial rights... Under the current state of affairs I have a hard time seeing anything but quick fixes based on the lowest common denominator among the different parties. The whole thing needs to be restarted from the ground up. In the meantime we may have to do with a F1-series with GP2 cars where the current F1 teams are invited together with the top GP2 teams.

[KWSN - DSM]

If the commercial rights would be returned to the FIA, Todt needs to find a new buyer because of competition laws, so hunger for power won't be a motivation for him. It might however be the only solution for real change to take place. But just imagine the legal wranglings if FIA would claim ownership of the commercial rights... Under the current state of affairs I have a hard time seeing anything but quick fixes based on the lowest common denominator among the different parties. The whole thing needs to be restarted from the ground up. In the meantime we may have to do with a F1-series with GP2 cars where the current F1 teams are invited together with the top GP2 teams.

 

I would think would have to be F3, since GP2 and GP3 are spec cars. F3 is still a class you can actually build a car for, albeit currently seems to be Dallara and close to no-one else.

 

[Fastcake]

If both Bernie and Todt are plotting to send F1 over a cliff in order to achieve their own nefarious goals, the logical conclusion would be a new commercial rights contract run by Ecclestone that better benefits the FIA...

 

I think that the FIA will ratify any Formula that meets the relevant criteria.

The commercial rights holder negotiates with tracks, and can - and repeatedly has - prevented a direct comparison by, e.g. forbidding any F1 circuit holding CART races (okay, that dates me...)

 

I don't think that Bernie could (legally...*) stymie any new formula.

 

*(Obviously that doesn't prevent old boys' networking, you scratch my back , I'll stab yours, etc...)

 

That very much depends on the contract between the FIA and Bernie. I would be surprised if the FIA were able to sanction a new single-seater series in competition with Formula One.

Edited by Fastcake, 29 October 2014 - 20:28.

[pdac]

Just Bernie's outdated business model, his self belief that it's not outdated and the weak people who let him just carry on regardless.

[Lotus53B]

That very much depends on the contract between the FIA and Bernie. I would be surprised if the FIA were able to sanction a new single-seater series in competition with Formula One.

The FIA have a contract to cede the commercial rights to the formula called Formula 1 to Bernie's empire.

 

And that's all.

There is nothing legal to stop them allowing a new motorsport, taht could match the "spectacle" of F1 to Bernie and call it 1F or whatever, as far as I can see

[pdac]

The FIA have a contract to cede the commercial rights to the formula called Formula 1 to Bernie's empire.

 

And that's all.

There is nothing legal to stop them allowing a new motorsport, taht could match the "spectacle" of F1 to Bernie and call it 1F or whatever, as far as I can see

 

But such a series would not get anywhere near the impact of F1 without in-your-face marketing and anyone who tried that would have Bernie's lawyers on their back.

 

Edit: Or Bernie would just buy the company

Edited by pdac, 29 October 2014 - 20:55.

[Fastcake]

The FIA have a contract to cede the commercial rights to the formula called Formula 1 to Bernie's empire.

 

And that's all.

There is nothing legal to stop them allowing a new motorsport, taht could match the "spectacle" of F1 to Bernie and call it 1F or whatever, as far as I can see

 

You seem awfully confident of that. Do you know what's in the contracts?

[Lotus53B]

You seem awfully confident of that. Do you know what's in the contracts?

Well, the FIA is a non-profit organisation, that as far as I'm aware can't enter into commercial contracts...legally speaking.. and thus can authorise anything

Edited by Lotus53B, 29 October 2014 - 21:06.

[ExFlagMan]

Seeing as the FIA has to license any new tracks then Bernie might find himself running short of tracks on which to run his 'F1' series - seeing as his business model seems to be based on persuading new gov't backed tracks to take his series.

If the FIA declared F1 an 'non FIA recognised series' then would any existing (proper) circuit risk being prohibited from running any other series if it ran Bernie's F1.

Given all the concern that posters on here have expressed about the marshalling standards, I wonder where Bernie would get his trained marshals from, given that anyone marshalling at an 'outlawed' event is allegedly banned from participating in an FIA (or FIA accredited ASN event).

[Risil]

I don't think that Bernie could (legally...*) stymie any new formula.

 

Perhaps he couldn't prevent it from going ahead, but I reckon he could tie it up in the courts long enough to ruin any possible advantage the FIA could gain from setting up a "new" F1.

 

I think most of this talk is premature. F1 isn't in crisis exactly -- it's about to lose its two smallest, least traditional, least influential teams. It may lose another team over the winter and be forced to allow the bigger marques to run three cars. Every other racing series in the world would love to have three entries from teams of the quality and prestige of Mercedes, Red Bull or Ferrari. By allowing this to happen though it seems fairly clear that F1 is committing a strategic error, which we will point to in years to come as one particular wrong turn that made some further calamity inevitable.

[pdac]

Perhaps he couldn't prevent it from going ahead, but I reckon he could tie it up in the courts long enough to ruin any possible advantage the FIA could gain from setting up a "new" F1.

 

I think most of this talk is premature. F1 isn't in crisis exactly -- it's about to lose its two smallest, least traditional, least influential teams. It may lose another team over the winter and be forced to allow the bigger marques to run three cars. Every other racing series in the world would love to have three entries from teams of the quality and prestige of Mercedes, Red Bull or Ferrari. By allowing this to happen though it seems fairly clear that F1 is committing a strategic error, which we will point to in years to come as one particular wrong turn that made some further calamity inevitable.

 

I think some worry that this is the start of a trend. Things change. The world changes. Is F1 changing? Not so long ago Tesco was the king of grocery stores in the UK. But things are changing for them because people have changed. Ignore change at your peril.

[Brother Fox]

I think here's enough mismanagement to entertain the idea that there's something bigger at play.

Honestly, if you were trying to tear down a sport and make it look like natural attrition then you'd struggle to do it better

[johnmhinds]

Wasn't Jean Todt managing Ferrari when they started to accept money for just turning up.

And had just started running the FIA when they decided that the drivers have to pay more for their super licence renewal based on how many points they'd scored.

Why would that guy now want to tear down F1 to distribute money more fairly? He hasn't given a crap about the back markers or fair money distribution in F1 in the past.

Edited by johnmhinds, 30 October 2014 - 09:08.

[Supertourer]

The FIA can make any and all series they want, however they do have a 100 year binding contract for F1 to be the premier series, and for F1 be the name under which it is conducted. I would imagine but naturally have zero knowledge that a lot of legalese also block them from overtly creating a new replacement series for F1.

 

 You wouidn't even need to use the name F1 - you could have the FIA Grand Prix World Championship (for example) - most people refer to the races as the British Grand Prix or German Grand Prix, who even thinks of the Formula One prefix? BE tried to trade mark the term 'Grand Prix' many years ago, presumably to avoid anyone else being able to hold one and quite rightly failed as it is a term originally used in horse racing and not the property of F1.

[chunder27]

I actually think that right now the time is right for some rich bugger somewhere to start an A1GP or Masters series type thing.

 

Makes the cars loud, make them fast. Go to places like Jerez, Paul Ricard, Brands Hatch, Pau, Macau where fans want to go.

 

The fans are getting annoyed with PPV, if you cna get someone to banroll the footage on ITV or BBC to make it free to watch, you coudl get somewhere.

 

Formula E has managed it and that is utter rot! But they have managed to make it with one selling point, shows how desperate tv bosses are for something like this! And how desperate theya re for money!

[chunder27]

Oh and I watch F1 stock cars all the time, small enough to pass under Bernies radar, never mind the fact he actually competed in the 50's!

[Pikachu Racing]

Very good take on this:

 

http://www.roadandtr...-crashed-a-rant

[Rob]

It's not a surprise that the current problems can be traced back to the commercial rights fiasco. It was only going to be a matter of a time before it brought the sport to its knees.

[rhukkas]

Very good take on this:

 

http://www.roadandtr...-crashed-a-rant

 

The pyramid goes much wider than F1. The problem is growing.

 

Look at karting. Families spending all their savings on karting in  the completely false hope they'll get spotted. I am not sure people realise the size of the issue.

[mtknot]

The three teams - caterham, marussia and HRT should never have been allowed on the grid. Unfortunately they look bad for the sport and would have been a much better operation, had that amount of resources out there been consolidated into one team. That probably would have happened if Mosley was prudent enough to set higher standards for entry for these teams. These teams unfortunately are not plagued by poverty, but rather poor management and dodgy garage investors as ever more evident now...

The FIA really needs to make some industry-wide accountability and accreditation to this sport - Red Flags, Principles, that a reasonable team should abide to. 
At the end of 2009, had only one team joined, we wouldn't really have the crisis we have today. F1 isn't in crisis, but rather returning to equilibrium. However this return may become a crisis if the media dwells further on it. 

You could call it a Ponzi scheme, but I feel like it only functions this way for F1 if you don't invest enough in the sport - such as the three teams that have failed miserably. 

I'm not discounting the hard work that the three teams have put in, it is sad that they've gone. They haven't had a good time in the sport really, given what other teams / partners have done to ruin any chance of success. Eg: Lotus being forced to become Caterham - this was a huge farce in my opinion, and should never have happened. 

Edited by mtknot, 30 October 2014 - 11:15.

[Fastcake]

What "higher standards" would these be then? Would this be the 107% rule, initially designed to weed out the backmarkers in the 90s, that all three teams easily passed? Or the initial entry requirements in 2009, when each team was let into the sport under a £30 million budget cap?

Don't blame the teams for managing as best they could under the regulations forced upon them. Without Caterham and Marussia, we'd only have nine teams and Sauber and Lotus would still be in danger. Hardly crisis averted.

[Henri Greuter]

More protectionism than conspiracy.  Trying to keep Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren and (to a lesser extent) Mercedes and Williams sweet, has meant that everyone else is on the outside and can't break in.  You can see in those articles how Bernie killed Marussia by refusing to pay them prize money. 

 

The thing with Bernie is he is not a long-termer.  He is the great improviser.  But sometimes he does things that make no long-term sense.  Look at Brabham in 1976.  A year in which the world title went to a playboy in a 4 year old car.  Brabham had Reutemann, Pace and Gordon Murray.  But Bernie would rather have Alfa give him money than give Cosworth money.  That cost Brabham the title, surely.  And Brabham never won a WCC under Ecclestone; when they had Piquet winning races, they tended to have wastes of space like Zunino or Hesnault buying the second seat.

 

 

Ehhh,  from what I have understood: the hiring of lapdog #2 drivers to back up Piquet had also something to do with the fact that Piquet didn't like to be challenged for the #1 position within the team he drove for...

 

 

henri

[valachus]

Makes the cars loud, make them fast. Go to places like Jerez, Paul Ricard, Brands Hatch, Pau, Macau where fans want to go.

The fans are getting annoyed with PPV, if you cna get someone to banroll the footage on ITV or BBC to make it free to watch, you coudl get somewhere.

I was thinking about that too. Basically what I feel it's happening now is that the fanbase is crumbling away. Most of us here surely were hooked on it back in the day when it was free to air. In our childhood, or adolescence. Turn on the tv and there it was, something much like Star Wars only in real life. Simple rules, something a child could easily understand. And all for free. Now the PPV system and the byzantine regulations they have now are not going to make inroads with the new fans. Because it's something Dad pays for, and the races are decided according to some arcane regulations that not even the TV presenters are sure about. Therefore it is also rather uncool. Hardly something similar to the stuff that made us fans back in the day. For a comparison let's consider Facebook was a paid service. Or it was transformed into one at some point. Not such a bright perspective isnt it.

Bottom line, I can't see F1 making new young fans the way it's run now, and that will be its end, sooner or later. It might still make some money to its owners for a while. And then, suddenly, no more.

Edited by valachus, 31 October 2014 - 21:14.

[Shambolic]

Tin foil hats, £4 each or 3 for £10.

 

You'll never be a Bernie.

 

It's £10 each, 4 for £50.

 

Or 2 for £150, and you have to wear them both at the same time.

[FredF1]

You'll never be a Bernie.

 

It's £10 each, 4 for £50.

 

Or 2 for £150, and you have to wear them both at the same time.

 

 

And then you find out that what you thought was real, honest, 100% natural, tinfoil, is really only used foil paper from chocolate bar wrappers. You phone Bernie to complain and he says he understands your plight and likes you very much so, he'll only charge you five times what you paid him to remove said shoddy tinfoil hats. Now you've no hats and no money.

[superden]

You'll never be a Bernie.

Thank goodness.

[phoenix101]

They are just clearing the grid to make room for 3-car teams. The cost of building additional cars for the major manufacturers is relatively small, and they get 50% more advertising space. FOM will probably just pocket the money they were paying to Caterham and Marussia.