147 replies to this topic

[lambylamby]

Ferrari's value in F1 is hugely overstated in my opinion. Their level of competitiveness even with a 300 million USD budget is a great illustration of that.
Most people, including me, would still watch F1 even if they left.

Agreed.

[PlatenGlass]

Bernie has a real talent for making everyone - the interviewer, the viewers - feel awkward when he's being interviewed. He doesn't give sensible interviews, and comes across as quite an unpleasant man and that he feels above it all. I've never seen a good interview with him.

[SheIsDisaster]

It was explain by Dieter Recken few months ago. Current issue of paper Autosport has his analysis on it as well.

 

I remember from DR's analysis year ago or so that for example if Lotus would win WCC and Ferrari did not score a single point, Ferrari would still end up with more money than Lotus.

 

Very interesting, thanks.

 

OT but Ferrari is the world's most powerful brand -> http://www.brandfina...-powerful-brand

[mariner]

One small detail revenue has , ultimately to come from fan interest. I happen to be writing this in the USA about 600 miles from Austin, a days drive by US standards.

 

There is nothing, zip, zero coverage of the Austin F1 GP in the local press /TV nor any this week in the only national US paper ( USA Today ) through Friday.

 

Maybe F1 should take on board the total lack of media interest in the USA and realise something is very , very wong somewhere. In contrast the UK Premiership is very well covered on TV here so its not just US parochialism.

[ensign14]

The Premiere League teams get enough tv money to make a profit (£52million in TV money is way more than a team like Hull or Cardiff needs to break even) and then any team is free to raise and spend any extra money from sponsors or rich owners if they can attract them if they want to do so.

 

...

 

Man Utd and Chelsea don't have control over the rules for their sport that lets them push up the basics costs needed to turn up and play at the expense of everyone else in the league.

 

Yes they do.  Champions League.  A change in the regulations a few years ago so the home team keeps all the gate money - even though without the opposition there wouldn't be a gate.  Financial fair play rules so that other clubs can't do what Man City and Chelsea have done and use a billionaire's money to buy success.  That's on top of complaisant referees.  Look to Chelsea v QPR on the box this very evening for a prime example.

 

And you need to look at football clubs' accounts.  £52m is nowhere near enough for Hull to break even.  Because when Chelsea are paying way more than that in wages to reserves (Mark Schwarzer, their third choice goalkeeper, is on £2m per year), Hull need to pay more to attract players not good enough to make Chelsea's first team.  Last year, not a single Premier League club paid less than £52m in salary.

[Clatter]

If we have 14 car grids does that mean the teams have collectively told Bernie they won't run three car teams?

No, it just means contractually he only needs 14 cars.

[glenncondor]

For some time now, whenever I have seen Ecclestone give an interview, or been begged by someone to spare them his time to ask about a product he makes money hand over fist out of.......it's pretty embarasing.  He's rude, evasive and patronising.

 

I'm not sure what that interview was all about, nor where it went.  Ecclestone just swayed it to his own agenda, I cringed wen he introduced Epstein and they both prattled on about 'fans' and 'spectacle', as if they are going to care about 14 cars being a 'spectacle'  next season.

 

They are both for now, just concerned about getting out of Texas alive.....14 cars?  That's a problem for a few months time.

[Exb]

wow - came across this on twitter


Ian Parkes @ianparkesf1 · 42m 42 minutes ago
Involved in a 50-minute media briefing with Bernie re F1's problems. He said: "I know what the problem is, but I don't know how to fix it."

- It was pretty eye-opening stuff from Bernie

Ian Parkes @ianparkesf1 · 39m 39 minutes ago
Bernie claims he is hamstrung by regulations and contracts with the teams. If he had his way he would rip up all contracts and start again

Andrew Benson ‏@andrewbensonf1 · 23m23 minutes ago
@ianparkesf1 @virtualstatman yes, but it was him who did the contracts in the first place

Ian Parkes ‏@ianparkesf1 · 21m21 minutes ago
. @andrewbensonf1 @virtualstatman -and here's his response "There is too much money probably being distributed badly - probably my fault."


Ian Parkes @ianparkesf1
The bottom line for Bernie re finances: "The people involved in F1 who want to look after the sport will have to make sacrifices."

[Risil]

VERY interesting set of quotes from Mr E. I liked
 

When asked if he regretted the deals in question, he replied: "If the company belonged to me I would have done things in a different way because it would have been my money I was dealing with.

 

"But I work for people who are in the business to make money."

 

Is this "don't blame me, I just work here", or an admission that he no longer pulls the strings in F1?

Edited by Risil, 01 November 2014 - 22:51.

[Schumster]

People, f***ing stop complaining about the noise there are perfectly simple solutions:

- when watching at home: TURN THE FRICKING VOLUME UP

- when watching at the race track: TAKE THE EFFIN EARPLUGS OUT

 

 

ITS THAT SIMPLE!!!!

 

There's a difference between a "loud" F1 car and a "screaming" F1 car. A massive difference. I'd rather an engine that roars.

[Schumster]

He's what now? 84? If he had any decency, he'd leave F1 in a positive state and leave behind a decent legacy. Maybe that's what those above quotes are, maybe he's realised his days are numbered. Or maybe he's had one too many promoters have a go at him.

[Doughnut King]

VERY interesting set of quotes from Mr E. I liked
 

 

Is this "don't blame me, I just work here", or an admission that he no longer pulls the strings in F1?

 

Didn't he once bail out Minardi in the early 2000s? I bet he can't do that now.

[Rob]

And the house of cards comes tumbling down...

[johnmhinds]

The general theme of those tweets is Bernie once again deflecting things away from himself and blaming other people for the shitty deals he penned.

[ensign14]

VERY interesting set of quotes from Mr E. I liked
 

 

Is this "don't blame me, I just work here", or an admission that he no longer pulls the strings in F1?

 

Well, he doesn't.  Not since he sold out to CVC.  They control them.  He does their bidding.  It just so happens that their bidding is generally what he advises them...

[Fastcake]

Holy mother of god, Bernie Ecclestone telling the truth. Here's a day I never thought would happen.

 

"I would tear all the contracts up. Take all the money, pay all the teams' debts that should be paid so people haven't suffered because of Formula 1."

 

 

If Bernie really means that it would truly be a day for miracles. Maybe he remembers the days he spent struggling to survive.

[Eff One 2002]

That quote in itself indicates that Eccelstone realises the crisis F1 is in right now.

[SpartanChas]

He has a point. F1 fans will watch no matter what the sound is like. New fans won't be attracted by...well....whatever this sound compared to what we had before. 

 

The only difference is that some F1 fans take any criticism of the sport so personally that they can't see the wood from the shitty sounding trees. 

 

Don't try to attract people with the sound then. There have been some exciting races this year. Show them a video of Lewis Hamilton going around the outside of Nico Rosberg at a wet Suzuka. The sound was amazing in 2004 but it didn't bring in fans, because trying to watch a race was ****ing boring and Michael Schumacher won all the time. Did people start tuning into Indycar recently because of the noise, or because the racing is good? 

 

There's plenty going for F1 right now that could attract new fans, if the people in charge could let anyone put it out there on the internet. The fact that a worrying number of teams are in trouble is ridiculous given the revenue that F1 brings in. 

 

They could bring back V12 engines for next year but it won't change a damned thing.

Edited by SpartanChas, 01 November 2014 - 23:39.

[ClubmanGT]

I am starting to seriously think a promotion/relegation class with the old engines that all new teams run in for the first three years of their life is the way to go. 

 

Fixing the current system shouldn't be just allowing the current teams + Haas to survive, it should be aiming for  a 26 car grid.

 

A proper F1 grid with enough cars and teams would probably attract a big enough audience that the top level teams would be making the same kind of TV money they do now. 

[Eff One 2002]

 

 

Fixing the current system shouldn't be just allowing the current teams + Haas to survive, it should be aiming for  a 26 car grid.

 

Precisely.

[aguri]

Right so the TV rights deal is until 2018 last time I checked. That means unless there is a serious litigation nothing will change much until then.

 

As a stopgap Bernie/CVC could renegotiate with FI, Sauber, Lotus, Haas etc. and offer them a bigger share of the profits in order to offset some of what the big 5 are getting. But this will come directly out of CVC's profits so maybe not a favourable solution on their end. 

 

I have a feeling we will see McLaren-Honda asked to set up a B team for 2016, 17, 18; and also Ferrari asked to provide more support for Haas. That will mean 5 big teams plus Toro Rosso, Haas and Mclaren B.

 

I think Bernie/CVC will let Sauber and FI fail but they will prop up Lotus somehow until the next TV right deal when they will cut the legacy payments and distribute the money more equally. 

 

If you were looking to get into F1 now is not the time. But around 2017 there is going to be a lot of teams for sale cheap that have good infrastructure and better chances of getting a fair cut of the new TV right deal.

[FenderJaguar]

Talk is cheap. There are a lot of money involved in F1 and if the teams need more money they should have it. This year has been first year for a long time I actually feel they are in danger of destroying the interest in F1. Engines, rules, the way it looks and feels is getting too artificial and not enough racing.

[Lee Nicolle]

Very interesting, thanks.

 

OT but Ferrari is the world's most powerful brand -> http://www.brandfina...-powerful-brand

And evidently for sale too!

[HoldenRT]

Talk is cheap. There are a lot of money involved in F1 and if the teams need more money they should have it. This year has been first year for a long time I actually feel they are in danger of destroying the interest in F1. Engines, rules, the way it looks and feels is getting too artificial and not enough racing.

 

To be talking so frankly about it though.. it's something.  Quite shocking IMO..

 

The Friday PC for Monza (I think it was).. it was the most depressing PC I've watched in a long time because everyone side stepped the main issues.  And talked about small outside things and not the core issue.  Like they were scared to talk or face the main issue.

 

This weekend.. at least people have talked about the main issue directly.  Especially the comments from Lopez, but also Malaya and Kaltenborn.  I liked Lopez's comments the best.

 

To see Bernie talk about it in such a way is quite a shock.  A few days ago he was talking about begging buckets (which implies all the smaller teams are incompetent and is hugely insulting).  Force India for example have been anything but over the last few years.  Now Bernie is talking about the main issue itself, actually talking about it.

 

It's not much but it's something..

Edited by HoldenRT, 02 November 2014 - 03:52.

[ClubmanGT]

Does anyone else see the irony of F1 killing itself in the process of trying to be more relevant to everyday motoring, while the WRC is killing itself by having nothing to do with road cars whatsoever? 

 

Maybe top level motorsport is just an old fashioned chimpanzee tea party that's finally gotten out of hand?

[aguri]

The engines aren't killing F1, unequal distribution costs and weak engine supply rules are.

[Petroltorque]

Ecclestone finally looked into the abyss and realised that the product is dead. Lets hope he pointed that out to the CVC board. People watch live sport for its unpredictability. That is achieved by a full grid 0f 26 cars. That's 13 2 car teams and not one filled with ersatz third cars or customer cars.

[Tourgott]

Best article ever: http://www.auto-moto...ne-8848456.html

 

Bernie would tear up all contracts and start from scratch. But Mattiaci and Lauda already declined it. 

Interesting detail: The new engines cost 100 millions + another 60 millions yearly. Here is the main reason why F1 can't work anymore.

[Nustang70]

VERY interesting set of quotes from Mr E. I liked
 

 

Is this "don't blame me, I just work here", or an admission that he no longer pulls the strings in F1?

Bernie talks about redistributing the teams' money, but doesn't mention redistributing anything away from CVC's share.  

[skid solo]

Bernie has a real talent for making everyone - the interviewer, the viewers - feel awkward when he's being interviewed. He doesn't give sensible interviews, and comes across as quite an unpleasant man and that he feels above it all. I've never seen a good interview with him.

Someone needs to tell him; "Bernie you have to wait for me to place the microphone in front of your mouth before speaking otherwise no one can hear you!"

[Nemo1965]

The only solution I can see is that the smaller teams split the costs of research and development, hence share staff and knowledge. You could have a 'supply'-company with engineers, marketing, pr- and sponsorship hunters of 200 men, and three seperate F1-teams with 60-70 people travelling the world (with perhaps one or two engineers that can think of stuff on their own).

 

The three teams would share all the developments the mother-company makes, and concentrate more on the battle of getting closer to the front than beating each others out of existence (though they still can try to do that, with their drivers or with inventions done outside of the mother-company).

 

The sponsorship-sharing would be hard, I think, but I think good deals can be made. The great thing would be also that all the fans would know that the cars should be pretty equal in performance, so the mid to backend battle would be more interesting.

[SonJR]

Bernie talks about redistributing the teams' money, but doesn't mention redistributing anything away from CVC's share.  

He did actually, according to the BBC.

Quote: 

"And he [Ecclestone] said he would be prepared to give up some of the income earned by main shareholder CVC, which employs him to run the sport, if the teams did the same."

Source: http://www.bbc.com/s...rmula1/29868355

Edited by SonJR, 02 November 2014 - 08:50.

[Tomecek]

Look at this FIA statement from 10 years ago: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/44912

 

Madness.

[sopa]

14 cars? You've got the be kidding me.

 

Okay, let's make something clear. From what I can understand, Bernie has to guarantee at least 14 cars for individual races as per contract with race organizers? But he has to guarantee 20 cars for the whole season as per contract with the FIA?

 

Bernie shouldn't get away with this mess for 2015, even if he gets away with it for the final few races of the current year.

[DutchQuicksilver]

And I still feel these super duper hybrid engines are partly to blame for Caterham, Marussia and possibly other teams falling over.

[SpartanChas]

If they had kept the V8s, Caterham and Marussia may still be here as they would be able to afford it. BUT the problem of sending f1's income to the wrong places would still remain and it would still be only a matter of time before **** hits the fan. Plus engine manufacturers pulling out etc.

It would have let Bernie et al carry on pretending that there is no problem for a couple more years.

There's only so much time people will watch on TV 'because the cars sound amazing'. If the races are boring they'll watch something else.

Edited by SpartanChas, 02 November 2014 - 11:21.

[Petroltorque]

Caterham did not go under due to the engines. Look at the breakdown of their expenditure 60% of the budget was going on R and D and staffing. I agree that Marussia were killed by the new PUs since their budget was so much smaller. The other problem is the teams have little chance of finding sponsorship so they are largely dependent on their owners largesse.

[Supertourer]

Best outcome would be for the teams to play hardball with BE and for sufficient teams to withdraw on costs grounds from F1 to leave FOM below the required cars for the FIA, which would then see the championship rights revert to the FIA leaving BE and CVC with 100% of zip.

 

In the meanitne the FIA should be recruiting technical and commercial people who know what they are doing to re-neogiate the TV rights and circuit fees and the distribution to the teams, coupled with a review of the regs and budget capping - this way we might even end up with an F1 that teams can afford to race in, that circuits can afford to promote and the FIA would get more income to put into their road safeyt intiatives.

 

As my Grandfather used to say, sometimes if you want a rose to flower you need to cut it down to the ground and let it start again...

[pdac]

Best outcome would be for the teams to play hardball with BE and for sufficient teams to withdraw on costs grounds from F1 to leave FOM below the required cars for the FIA, which would then see the championship rights revert to the FIA leaving BE and CVC with 100% of zip.

 

In the meanitne the FIA should be recruiting technical and commercial people who know what they are doing to re-neogiate the TV rights and circuit fees and the distribution to the teams, coupled with a review of the regs and budget capping - this way we might even end up with an F1 that teams can afford to race in, that circuits can afford to promote and the FIA would get more income to put into their road safeyt intiatives.

 

As my Grandfather used to say, sometimes if you want a rose to flower you need to cut it down to the ground and let it start again...

 

The problem is, though, that these are not small operations that are hobbies of rich people. These are businesses employing hundreds of people that are solely operating to race in F1. How can the directors of a company just say "fed up now, we think we'll just close down". They can't. It's F1 or redundancy.

[SanDiegoGo]

The problem is, though, that these are not small operations that are hobbies of rich people. These are businesses employing hundreds of people that are solely operating to race in F1. How can the directors of a company just say "fed up now, we think we'll just close down". They can't. It's F1 or redundancy.

 who CVC? they're nothing more than a handful of investment bankers.

[pdac]

 who CVC? they're nothing more than a handful of investment bankers.

 

No, the teams.

[Masteroftheuniverse]

Bad news for F1, great news for other Motorsports.

[Supertourer]

The problem is, though, that these are not small operations that are hobbies of rich people. These are businesses employing hundreds of people that are solely operating to race in F1. How can the directors of a company just say "fed up now, we think we'll just close down". They can't. It's F1 or redundancy.

But two are bust already and others are on shaky ground, they more or less have nothing to use and the best hand of cards they've ever had against FOM.

[Risil]

Bad news for F1, great news for other Motorsports.

 

How so? If F1 went down, so would a lot of suppliers, fabricators and specialists who make many other kinds of motorsport possible.

 

It's possible that some well-organized and vastly-funded set of racing series would fill the vacuum, but more likely rich people would take their money to yachting or golf and we'd be left with a greatly shrunk racing scene.

[Paul Parker]

Best article ever: http://www.auto-moto...ne-8848456.html

 

Bernie would tear up all contracts and start from scratch. But Mattiaci and Lauda already declined it. 

Interesting detail: The new engines cost 100 millions + another 60 millions yearly. Here is the main reason why F1 can't work anymore.

 

Yep, all quite predictable, unnecessary formula change pandering to political pressure, unnecessary complication and concomitant expense when two thirds of the F1 grid cannot afford it, even before considering other issues.

 

Read Adrian Newey's opinion about this online.

[Masteroftheuniverse]

How so? If F1 went down, so would a lot of suppliers, fabricators and specialists who make many other kinds of motorsport possible.

 

It's possible that some well-organized and vastly-funded set of racing series would fill the vacuum, but more likely rich people would take their money to yachting or golf and we'd be left with a greatly shrunk racing scene.

 

Surely the companies could get extra work from other motorsport series? 

[Risil]

Surely the companies could get extra work from other motorsport series? 

 

Depends. The other motorsport series don't automatically get the spectators, TV audiences and sponsors "left over" from F1.

Edited by Risil, 02 November 2014 - 17:57.

[ExFlagMan]

Surely the companies could get extra work from other motorsport series?

How - if the other series are being fully supplied at present then unless you undercut the current suppliers there is no market for you company.