175 replies to this topic

[Mohican]

Fine, but that argument applies to a lot of drivers - not least Ericsson.

I think that the real reason that Sutil has fallen out of favour is his none too sparkling personality, combined with the fact that he has not delivered results better than Guterriez. He was clearly hired as a Hulk replacement, and things did not work out.

[Bleu]

Sutil is 45th in all-time starts. He will tie Mario Andretti assuming he starts both Interlagos and Abu Dhabi, which leaves 43 drivers with more starts than him. 

 

He's 7th in races without win, behind de Cesaris, Heidfeld, Brundle, Warwick, Jarier and Cheever. Of those six, two drivers never had their team-mates win either: Warwick and Jarier. Granted that top 3 had only one team-mate win each (Watson, Kubica and Schumacher).

[jals99]

Fine, but that argument applies to a lot of drivers - not least Ericsson.

I think that the real reason that Sutil has fallen out of favour is his none too sparkling personality, combined with the fact that he has not delivered results better than Guterriez. He was clearly hired as a Hulk replacement, and things did not work out.

He has not deliveres results better than Gutierrez because Esteban improved a lot, not because Adrian was bad

[Burai]

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter who was better than anyone. Anyone driving for Sauber, Force India or Lotus are driving into an expensive abyss where the tightness of your contract is dictated by how deep your wallet is.

[SpeedRacer`]

He has not deliveres results better than Gutierrez because Esteban improved a lot, not because Adrian was bad

 

Sutil's also heavier which has made a difference. But he has crashed far too often this season considering his experience.

Edited by SpeedRacer`, 10 November 2014 - 15:42.

[SmallHorsey]

Good to see that people actually care about drivers further down the grid. I'm surprised tho - I thought Felipe had a solid contract with Williams.

[Leprechau]

Nasr never impressed me in GP2 and he obviously is only in F1 because of LOTS of money.

 

He's not rubbish either. He's just not quick enough for F1. Only 1 pole despite driving for the best teams (DAMS, Carlin) while his teams mates (Valsecchi and Palmer) scored many as well as wins. Additionally, it took 2 and half year for him to win a race.

 

Vandoorne, Colleti, Palmer are definitely better and possibly Marciello and Evans too.

 

AND, we all know the real talents are coming from other series: Sainz(this one not so sure, yet), Ocon, Verstappen.

[Collective]

Vandoorne, Colleti, Palmer are definitely better and possibly Marciello and Evans too.

 

Coletti and Palmer have been there for freaking ever, so in my book, nope, they don't look better than Nasr. Vandoorne and Marciello for sure look more exciting. Evans about same.

[FerrariV12]

GP2 records by season # in the category:

 

1st season: Palmer 28th(!), Nasr 10th

2nd season: Palmer 11th, Nasr 4th

3rd season: Palmer 7th, Nasr 2nd/3rd

4th season: Palmer 1st, Nasr in F1

 

The one year they had the same car (Nasr 4th, Palmer 7th) he was on top as well, despite a years less experience in a formula where it seems to be really important.

 

Don't get me wrong there's a few drivers out there deserving the seat more, but don't see what Palmer has done that Valsecchi and Leimer (who didn't even need the #1 DAMS) didn't

 

All that aside, one thing I will say is that while (strictly IMO of course), F1 has regressed in many areas in the past 20 years, but the quality of the "pay drivers" certainly isn't one of them.

Edited by FerrariV12, 10 November 2014 - 16:57.

[Leprechau]

GP2 records by season # in the category:

 

1st season: Palmer 28th(!), Nasr 10th

2nd season: Palmer 11th, Nasr 4th

3rd season: Palmer 7th, Nasr 2nd/3rd

4th season: Palmer 1st, Nasr in F1

 

The one year they had the same car (Nasr 4th, Palmer 7th) he was on top as well, despite a years less experience in a formula where it seems to be really important.

 

Don't get me wrong there's a few drivers out there deserving the seat more, but don't see what Palmer has done that Valsecchi and Leimer (who didn't even need the #1 DAMS) didn't

 

All that aside, one thing I will say is that while (strictly IMO of course), F1 has regressed in many areas in the past 20 years, but the quality of the "pay drivers" certainly isn't one of them.

 

You just forgot to mention that Nasr's first year was in the best team of GP2 and that his team mate(Valsecchi) dominated the season.

 

Also, when Nasr and Palmer were team mater, the brazilian scored more points because he was more regular but Palmer improved a lot in the second half and had a pole and win(the Saturday one which is not a fake inverted grid show). Nasr only scored one pole in GP2 and only won his first race midway this year.

 

Palmer was much slower than him in first GPs and was outqualifed 6 times in first 7 events(Monaco exception). He, then, improved and outqualified Nasr in all last 4 GPs.

 

I won't say anything about races because lot's of incidents can happen as crashes, car failures and DNFs in general, but my bet is that Ericsson will win the qualifying battle because when he raced in GP2, in the same time as Nasr, he was getting poles while Nasr wasn't

 

 

[Jimisgod]

ZZZutil and Gutierrezzz will be no loss to the series. Bring on Nasr.

[RealRacing]

Im actually surprised at how long Sutil has been able to stay in F1, he is the vanilla milkshake of drivers.

...and runners

[HammyHamiltonFan]

money talks again in F1 then, no chance for better drivers cause they don't have the funding of drivers from South America who have the funding from their governments

[Jimisgod]

...and runners

 

Surely he's fruitier than vanilla?

[luispaulob]

You just forgot to mention that Nasr's first year was in the best team of GP2 and that his team mate(Valsecchi) dominated the season.

 

Also, when Nasr and Palmer were team mater, the brazilian scored more points because he was more regular but Palmer improved a lot in the second half and had a pole and win(the Saturday one which is not a fake inverted grid show). Nasr only scored one pole in GP2 and only won his first race midway this year.

 

Palmer was much slower than him in first GPs and was outqualifed 6 times in first 7 events(Monaco exception). He, then, improved and outqualified Nasr in all last 4 GPs.

 

I won't say anything about races because lot's of incidents can happen as crashes, car failures and DNFs in general, but my bet is that Ericsson will win the qualifying battle because when he raced in GP2, in the same time as Nasr, he was getting poles while Nasr wasn't

 

 

Well, the second half of this season is easily explained by Nasr's side.

Carlin explained later that Felipe Nasr had to run the same engine for practically the entire year, which made him lose lots of power by the end of the season. He was driving in the last races, literally, a worn down engine with 60% of its original power. No surprise Palmer got the upper hand on those races.. 

Come on, the guy is massacred in 70% of the races, and by magic, he becomes the best? No way.. 

And we may note that Nasr didn't win the Abu Dhabi Race because the team made a mistake by not changing his four tyres in his pit-stop, which gave Palmer a huge advantage at the end of the race.

So... 

[DS27]

Well, the second half of this season is easily explained by Nasr's side.

Carlin explained later that Felipe Nasr had to run the same engine for practically the entire year, which made him lose lots of power by the end of the season. He was driving in the last races, literally, a worn down engine with 60% of its original power. No surprise Palmer got the upper hand on those races.. 

 

So... 

 

An engine down on power by 60% - yeah, sure.

[SenorSjon]

If he can pay $20odd m for a Sauber seat, why don't they just swap the engine? I find that story very hard to believe.

[luispaulob]

An engine down on power by 60% - yeah, sure.

It HAD 60% of its original power.. 

 

Well, you believe what you want.. It was something both Nasr and Carlin confirmed after the season..

[luispaulob]

If he can pay $20odd m for a Sauber seat, why don't they just swap the engine? I find that story very hard to believe.

hahaha..

Well, only because the rules don't allow him to. 

GP2 states that each driver can have 2 engines per season. Nasr's first engine blew up after the 2nd race in Bahrein, so he had to keep the second one for most of the season, including races like Spa and Monza. The other drivers normally change their engine after Spa, so they can have a new one in Monza.

[taran]

It HAD 60% of its original power.. 

 

Well, you believe what you want.. It was something both Nasr and Carlin confirmed after the season..

 

I call BS. If that engine had 60% of its original power, Nasr would be racing against the F3 cars....no way he would have qualified for a GP2 race.

[SenorSjon]

hahaha..

Well, only because the rules don't allow him to. 

GP2 states that each driver can have 2 engines per season. Nasr's first engine blew up after the 2nd race in Bahrein, so he had to keep the second one for most of the season, including races like Spa and Monza. The other drivers normally change their engine after Spa, so they can have a new one in Monza.

 

And if he redlined his engine in a FP? Or a 'bag' could block the cooling system? Even in F3 they were swapping engines (at the cost of 3 10 place grid penalties).

 

Are you excluded after using the second engine? Two mean crashes in a weekend could end your season then.

[FerrariV12]

Genuine question (I realise it's going a bit off track), even with a 2 engine limit could you not put a new engine in for a grid penalty? Also I seem to remember some talk about Abt that year complaining his engine was down on power so ART were allowed to put a new one in at Spa(?) without penalty - it does seem strange to penalise teams for engine failures in a completely spec series, as opposed to F1, F3 and IndyCar.

 

Then again, it was Monza that I seem to remember Palmer becoming the quicker of the Carlin cars (the odd session or prime-prime race aside) that carried into the two flyaways, which would tally with "new engine at Monza" theory maybe, but who knows.

Edited by FerrariV12, 11 November 2014 - 16:04.

[Viryfan]

Well according to Jolyon Palmer until Hungary he had a cracked chassis. Then he improved his peformances and then he became better.

 

I guess that Nasr's vs Palmer's performances are too difficult to read in order to draw a trend between thise two.

[billm99uk]

Drivers are like boxers, there's always an excuse for poor performances. Unless it's a one-off I tend to take them all with a pinch of salt these days...

Edited by billm99uk, 11 November 2014 - 17:25.

[Leprechau]

Well, the second half of this season is easily explained by Nasr's side.

Carlin explained later that Felipe Nasr had to run the same engine for practically the entire year, which made him lose lots of power by the end of the season. He was driving in the last races, literally, a worn down engine with 60% of its original power. No surprise Palmer got the upper hand on those races.. 

Come on, the guy is massacred in 70% of the races, and by magic, he becomes the best? No way.. 

And we may note that Nasr didn't win the Abu Dhabi Race because the team made a mistake by not changing his four tyres in his pit-stop, which gave Palmer a huge advantage at the end of the race.

So... 

Started reading and smelled a fake excuse, then the bold part came and confirmed it while giving me a huge laugh.

 

Nasr must be supernatural to being able to compete with only 360HP versus everybody else's 600HP

 

 

And, no, I watched that race and all little Felipe have is excuses and blaming the others for his limited capability. Palmer was faster in that race regardless

 

Prepare yourself for a full plate of excuses next year. Brazilian public money paydriver will be shown up by even Ericsson.

Edited by Leprechau, 14 November 2014 - 09:40.

[noikeee]

The Portuguese Autosport, quoting dutch website 'Formule1', claims both Sutil and van der Garde broke their contracts by not bringing the amount of sponsorship agreed, hence why Sauber was free to hire someone else.

 

http://autosport.pt/...-sauber=f128576