235 replies to this topic

[tkulla]

Magnussen has not outpaced him enough.

 

Actually, you could argue that he hasnt outpaced him AT ALL. In today's F1 it's certainly possible to set up a car for qualifying to gain a few tenths. You'll be considerably slower over the course of a stint on Sunday as you wear out your tyres, but at least you could say you had more "raw pace" on Saturday. Until Kevin can show better pace on Sunday he's just slower in my book. 

[Juan Kerr]

Just pick on Jenson. Getting fed up with the anti JB posts in here. Move over KR too in that case. JB still has the desire to win.

Magnussen has not outpaced him enough.

I don't think anyone takes sides, I never take sides in fact, Jenson button never had that explosive aggressive pace that blew away his competitors he was always an acquired driver that learnt how to extract pace from the car in a cerebral way. With Schumacher, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton etc you're talking total explosive speed, scintillating performance and you wouldn't bet against them producing something when they're older. Jenson will slowly lose his appetite, freshness and judgement to be able to be cerebral about his driving and do what he does best. In my opinion Jenson is already slower than he was in 2000, not in speed due to car setup and F1 experience but speed due to pure talent and youthful judgement.  

[Skizo]

Why would Jenson move over,when so far the younger guys are no better than him,and there  is only "hope" his current teammate will become as good as him 1 day,years later.He told people/media multiple times,when he lose his speed,he will retire from F1.But this time is not now,he showed it this year.

[alframsey]

Personally I don't want Jenson to leave F1, I'd like to see him in something of a competitive car but I do not want him to remain at McLaren. I really don't. Will he stay in the sport? Probably not.

[James78]

It really makes me laugh when people talk about raw pace in F1 when we're talking about 10ths, 100ths of a second over one lap between team mates! Has anyone ever raced in this forum apart from having a rag around a kart track on a stag do?? It takes more guile to be quick over a race distance than to burn through a set of tyres in quali to get the 'all important pole position'... when has there ever been a time in F1 where there wasn't variables like fuel load, how much downforce, which tyre to choose and when and many others....F1 is not karting! The truth of the matter is Jenson is faster and has won more points of than his last two super quick, young, potential WC winning team mates...did amazingly well against the 'fastest' current F1 star and deserves a shot against Fernando...Mclaren would be foolish not to hire him for the next two/three seasons...a constructors championship should be worth far more than pampering to an egotistical megalomaniac turd like FA.

[BARHonda006]

I don't think anyone takes sides, I never take sides in fact, Jenson button never had that explosive aggressive pace that blew away his competitors he was always an acquired driver that learnt how to extract pace from the car in a cerebral way. With Schumacher, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton etc you're talking total explosive speed, scintillating performance and you wouldn't bet against them producing something when they're older. Jenson will slowly lose his appetite, freshness and judgement to be able to be cerebral about his driving and do what he does best. In my opinion Jenson is already slower than he was in 2000, not in speed due to car setup and F1 experience but speed due to pure talent and youthful judgement.

I'd love to know how you come to those conclusions. How the Dickens do you know he is slower now than he was then. You sound like someone else that posted on here that said he is slow because he looks slow.

Oh and re da ba or whatever your alias is. I'm just making a comment.

Don't see much in the way of explosive speed out of Kimi these days. He is past it. Oh and you do realise Kimi is the oldest driver on the grid!

Edited by BARHonda006, 14 November 2014 - 00:20.

[Longtimefan]

I hope he stays at McLaren for at least one more season, to get rid of him would be utter lunacy imo.   Magnussen is fine but Button is better

 

tbh with his Honda connections I'm amazed they didn't ask him to stay long ago.

Edited by Longtimefan, 14 November 2014 - 00:22.

[ButtonForEver]

 

Mark Webber‏@AussieGrit

@JensonButton

 

I really don't know what happened..

Edited by ButtonForEver, 14 November 2014 - 00:55.

[aguri]

Bombshell

 

Signing

 

Hits the papers

 

Webber will laugh. 

 

 

At this stage the biggest bombshell is Button staying in F1.

[ch103]

I personally want to see him race in WEC.  At the end of the day, McLaren are not the team they once were.  Ron isn't and therefore the team isn't.  They have been taking orders from oil money for some time now and its been a sinking ship ever since then.

 

Add to that the pressure that Honda have just imposed and its game on for Alonso.  McLaren could have signed Jenson months ago and put this whole thing to rest and in the process would have demonstrate a sense of self respect.  Instead, there has been a dog and pony show which has made a mockery of having the chance to sign Jenson.  Its absurd really. 

 

So enough of these amateur games - lets watch Jenson go on and win the 24 Hr race at Le Mans while McLaren and Alonso drizzle off into oblivion.  Shame for KMag - at least Jenson would fight him straight up.

[Treads]

It's not just about reaction times and fitness though is it, it's also about hunger, judgement, experience, fear. All these things which can change with age and time in F1, it's way more complex than some simple factors. I mean F1 moves on and new talent comes in and generally the novice factor provides more instinctive raw performances that are less controlled and measured. These performances themselves can often lead to crashes but also raw inspired rookie genius that is not overly conditioned with experience. Experience is not all good by the way.
Jenson Button has done 15 seasons and unless he was a 7 times world champion or one of the greatest of all time I suggest that he's done enough to have his time in F1. We can already see that Magnussen can often out-pace him in a new car and new formula to him. I'm sure if it wasn't so much about tyre management and management in general Kevin would be consistently quicker anyway.
I am sure myself that Jenson is still quick and a proven winner non of which he will have forgotten but he might as well make room now since it's such a difficult place to reach with such few cars, there needs to be a turn-over of drivers otherwise everyone will switch off and there will never be a next superstar driver coming in. There wont be enough seats for them to be discovered. Move over Jenson!

 

Horseshit.

1. It is largely about tyre management, you can't ignore that. How can you bring 'ifs' into it? If the cars were made of chocolate and it was a race to see who could eat the car most quickly, then I reckon my fat friend Rik Waller might be the best option for pilot?

2. Would you have asked Roger Federer to make way 5 years ago for new blood? These are sportsmen. They will carry on trying to win as long as they are able and Jenson should not lose his drive to someone inferior just to 'make way'. In what industry

The argument that 'he's had his day and should now move on' holds no water unless that is how Jenson thinks. If he thinks he has had enough, and wants to retire from F1 at the top of his game, fine.

Apply it to other jobs. "Sir, you are now 45, you can't continue to be manager of this supermarket because there are these hungry up-and-coming executives with MBAs coming through; go on, be graceful, move over and let someone new have a go."

 

I repeat there should be zero consideration of this, if he is good enough to race on merit (which he clearly is) and if he wants to do so, no one on this planet has the right to tell him to move over.

Edited by Treads, 14 November 2014 - 02:37.

[Treads]

I don't think anyone takes sides, I never take sides in fact, Jenson button never had that explosive aggressive pace that blew away his competitors he was always an acquired driver that learnt how to extract pace from the car in a cerebral way. With Schumacher, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton etc you're talking total explosive speed, scintillating performance and you wouldn't bet against them producing something when they're older. Jenson will slowly lose his appetite, freshness and judgement to be able to be cerebral about his driving and do what he does best. In my opinion Jenson is already slower than he was in 2000, not in speed due to car setup and F1 experience but speed due to pure talent and youthful judgement.  

 

On the contrary, I would argue the opposite.

This cerebral thing vs raw pace thing is a) not really true as Jenson is bloody quick, maybe 2 tenths off the very best and b) completely theoretical on your part that you lose 'cerebral pace' soone than 'raw pace'.

In your opinion Jenson may be slower than in 2000, but that is again something which is impossible to prove or disprove and really is impossible to argue for or against. How can you possibly compare his performance 15 years ago with no comparable data?

All we can say is that in 2000 he was dominated by his team mate and scored half his team mate's points. Inm 2014 he has done the opposite.

 

Where does this myth that Jenson is not 'fast' come from? He really, truly is. One of the fastest on the grid. Yes, he does not aways have that final yard of speed over a qualifying lap but his average qualifying deficit to Hamilton was only 0.2 seconds, over 3 years. Myth busted?

[AlanK]

I don't think anyone has suggested that, but both Mclaren's marketing department and Richard Goddard will have noted the media and social media coverage and will have placed a market value on that which they'll both take into negotiations. Formula 1 teams don't ignore the marketing value of drivers.

A market value on us folk chatting on here? Or Twitter? Or facebook? They don`t give two hoots. Do you honestly believe Goddard would go to dennis and say " Jenson got 500,000 likes on facebook yesterday, not only do you have to keep him but he wants a payrise "?

IF JB is in F1 next year it will have bugger all to do with the internet!

[Skaffen]

A market value on us folk chatting on here? Or Twitter? Or facebook? They don`t give two hoots. Do you honestly believe Goddard would go to dennis and say " Jenson got 500,000 likes on facebook yesterday, not only do you have to keep him but he wants a payrise "?

IF JB is in F1 next year it will have bugger all to do with the internet!

 

Do a Google for "Marketing Social Media ROI" if you want to have a look, there's quite a few methods and bits of software in the industry that captures that kind of data so that a value can be put on it.  There's also something called "Advertising Value Equivalency" which is used by marketing/PR companies to work out how much news stories are worth based on what it would have cost to reach the same number of people with the same impact by traditional advertising.  I'm pretty sure Jenson's management team either will have a marketing consultant or company that constantly keeps track of how much he's worth in marketing terms because that's a fairly big part of being an F1 driver (considering that F1 is basically funded by selling advertising space).  Even Jenson himself said in that interview a few days ago ( http://www.theguardi...rove-mclaren-f1 )

 

 

 

“I feel that I bring a lot to a team, not just in terms of results but in terms of marketing and working with sponsors...

 

So basically, yes, I'm pretty sure that the amount of media and social media coverage that Jenson has got over the past few weeks has been thrown into some calculations by both McLaren and Goddard, otherwise I think someone isn't doing their job properly.  Apart from that I think there'll also have been a few negative calculations on both sides in terms of how much negative impact it will have on McLaren in terms of losing Jenson based on public response but also on how that will overshadow their big Alonso announcement - which as I've said before is hardly going to be much of a shock.

Edited by Skaffen, 14 November 2014 - 05:03.

[Force Ten]

I don't think anyone takes sides, I never take sides in fact, Jenson button never had that explosive aggressive pace that blew away his competitors he was always an acquired driver that learnt how to extract pace from the car in a cerebral way. With Schumacher, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton etc you're talking total explosive speed, scintillating performance and you wouldn't bet against them producing something when they're older. Jenson will slowly lose his appetite, freshness and judgement to be able to be cerebral about his driving and do what he does best. In my opinion Jenson is already slower than he was in 2000, not in speed due to car setup and F1 experience but speed due to pure talent and youthful judgement.  

So what you are saying basically is "what looks fast is fast". Thank you for that detailed analysis.

 

Btw, this particular piece of nuanced view has been around since Prost days.

[Peter Perfect]

I don't think anyone takes sides, I never take sides in fact, Jenson button never had that explosive aggressive pace that blew away his competitors he was always an acquired driver that learnt how to extract pace from the car in a cerebral way. With Schumacher, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton etc you're talking total explosive speed, scintillating performance and you wouldn't bet against them producing something when they're older. Jenson will slowly lose his appetite, freshness and judgement to be able to be cerebral about his driving and do what he does best. In my opinion Jenson is already slower than he was in 2000, not in speed due to car setup and F1 experience but speed due to pure talent and youthful judgement.  

 

I always thought talent was the same as natural ability. Is it something you can lose? And I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'youthful judgement'.

 

Certainly as drivers get older their athleticism, reactions, concentration and hunger all tend to suffer (as seen in many other sports) but to be honest I haven't seen any signs of that from Button this year. Do you think he'd decline that rapidly over the course of next year?

[Giz]

If Jenson is slower than he was was in 2000 someone call Ralf the WDC is waiting!

[Dunc]

I always thought talent was the same as natural ability. Is it something you can lose? And I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'youthful judgement'.

 

Certainly as drivers get older their athleticism, reactions, concentration and hunger all tend to suffer (as seen in many other sports) but to be honest I haven't seen any signs of that from Button this year. Do you think he'd decline that rapidly over the course of next year?

 

I really am a bit puzzled by the arguments over age.  Schumacher, Prost, Mansell, Hakkinen, Senna, Piquet. Andretti, Lauda and numerous other WDCs all had amazing success in their 30s, as did various other F1 drivers, often in an age when driving an F1 car was even more physically demanding (manual clutch etc) than it is now.  The idea that you can't do that anymore is, to coin a popular phrase, a load  of bollocks.

[AlanK]

I really am a bit puzzled by the arguments over age.  Schumacher, Prost, Mansell, Hakkinen, Senna, Piquet. Andretti, Lauda and numerous other WDCs all had amazing success in their 30s, as did various other F1 drivers, often in an age when driving an F1 car was even more physically demanding (manual clutch etc) than it is now.  The idea that you can't do that anymore is, to coin a popular phrase, a load  of bollocks.

I couldn`t agree more. Where on earth did this fashion start to use kids? It was better when the drivers were more mature and spoke their mind too.

[AlanK]

Do a Google for "Marketing Social Media ROI" if you want to have a look, there's quite a few methods and bits of software in the industry that captures that kind of data so that a value can be put on it.  There's also something called "Advertising Value Equivalency" which is used by marketing/PR companies to work out how much news stories are worth based on what it would have cost to reach the same number of people with the same impact by traditional advertising.  I'm pretty sure Jenson's management team either will have a marketing consultant or company that constantly keeps track of how much he's worth in marketing terms because that's a fairly big part of being an F1 driver (considering that F1 is basically funded by selling advertising space).  Even Jenson himself said in that interview a few days ago ( http://www.theguardi...rove-mclaren-f1 )

 

 

 

 

So basically, yes, I'm pretty sure that the amount of media and social media coverage that Jenson has got over the past few weeks has been thrown into some calculations by both McLaren and Goddard, otherwise I think someone isn't doing their job properly.  Apart from that I think there'll also have been a few negative calculations on both sides in terms of how much negative impact it will have on McLaren in terms of losing Jenson based on public response but also on how that will overshadow their big Alonso announcement - which as I've said before is hardly going to be much of a shock.

There is capturing DATA for marketing and there is selecting 2 drivers for a top F1 team. Totally different. If not then why do we expect JB to be out of McLaren?

[jimmonson]

If Jenson is slower than he was was in 2000 someone call Ralf the WDC is waiting!

 

 

  

[Flatnaveg]

Just pick on Jenson. Getting fed up with the anti JB posts in here. Move over KR too in that case. JB still has the desire to win.

Magnussen has not outpaced him enough.

You should then go over to the Jenson vs Magnussen tread. There you  see like 95 % Jenson "Fanboying"  so you don´t have to worry about Jenson I promise you 

Edited by Flatnaveg, 14 November 2014 - 10:05.

[Rinehart]

F1, it's way more complex than some simple factors.

 

We can already see that Magnussen can often out-pace him in a new car and new formula to him. I'm sure if it wasn't so much about tyre management and management in general Kevin would be consistently quicker anyway.
 

If that isn't the most blatant contradiction I don't know what is.

 

"If only F1 was really easy, then Kevin might be quicker than Jenson, I am guessing, in my dreamworld". What point are you trying to make?

[Rinehart]

You should then go over to the Jenson vs Magnussen tread. There you  see like 95 % Jenson "Fanboying"  so you don´t have to worry about Jenson I promise you 

Making the point that Jenson has been comfortably better than Kevin this season is not fanboying. 

 

Dreaming that Kevin is suddenly going to become a world championship level driver next year is. 

 

[jimmonson]

Spot on Rinehart 

[Skaffen]

There is capturing DATA for marketing and there is selecting 2 drivers for a top F1 team. Totally different. If not then why do we expect JB to be out of McLaren?

Because it's not purely about marketing, but my original point was that Jenson's management will have collected the data about the high levels of media/social media response and so will McLaren and they'll both be trying to place an economic value on his marketing worth. I think it's likely to have strengthened Jenson's position given the response he's had as it's definitely been highlighted that he does get strong positive media and social media reactions and that him being dropped is likely to create some negative (for McLaren) media articles and social media content.

I'm not saying it's going to make Ron sign him, but I'd be surprised if it hadn't been noted by the appropriate marketing peeps and passed up the food chain.

Edit: FWIW I don't expect JB to be out of McLaren anyway, otherwise I would have expected an announcement by now. I think it's probably become a financial negotiation at this point.

Edited by Skaffen, 14 November 2014 - 12:51.

[Flatnaveg]

Making the point that Jenson has been comfortably better than Kevin this season is not fanboying. 

 

Dreaming that Kevin is suddenly going to become a world championship level driver next year is. 

 

Never said next year but one day he will be world champion.... just wait and see

Edited by Flatnaveg, 14 November 2014 - 12:54.

[James78]

Never said next year but one day he will be world champion.... just wait and see

Just not in F1

[Flatnaveg]

Just not in F1

Well you just have to wait and see 

[James78]

Vandoorne will be WC before Magnussen!

[bub]

And back to the topic maybe?

[James78]

JB deservedly to stay at Mclaren...if not then I'm sure he will be snapped up in the WEC for next year.

[kwikmike]

 

Declan Brennan@TheRaceTool

Hmmm - Tom Kristensen holding a press conference in Copenhagen tomorrow at 1pm Danish time, to talk about his future.

 

Looks like this will be Kristensen last year in WEC.. Dr. Ullrich will be at the press conference too. So.. Jenson to step in at Audi next year..?

Edited by kwikmike, 18 November 2014 - 15:20.

[ButtonForEver]

 

 

 

Looks like this will be Kristensen last year in WEC.. Dr. Ullrich will be at the press conference too. So.. Jenson to step in at Audi next year..?

 

 

Maybe. 

But it's all a matter of money, whether Button and McLaren will find a digit that puts both agree, Button will stay at McLaren, otherwise he will go in the WEC (where he will go surely in any case, in the future). That's it.

Edited by ButtonForEver, 18 November 2014 - 16:12.

[Supertourer]

Another factor is that McLaren only have 1 year as the exclusive Honda engine partner, so you would imagine they will want as many points on the board as possible which surely means JB and FA?

[MikeMM]

Another factor is that McLaren only have 1 year as the exclusive Honda engine partner, so you would imagine they will want as many points on the board as possible which surely means JB and FA?

Makes sense.