395 replies to this topic

[chipmcdonald]

Same can be said for Lewis, a lot of F1 and anything is luck.

 

 

 It is not luck that has enabled Lewis to be ahead, despite equipment failure at the start of the season. 

 

.

[baddog]

It's really not. If you disagree with the rule it's not a bash on a driver.

 

 

Well that was MY point, I disagree with the rule but wont hold it against a driver if it changes the result as that is not fair. I am told that is hypocritical and I just hate Lewis or something.

[DrivenF1]

Well that was MY point, I disagree with the rule but wont hold it against a driver if it changes the result as that is not fair. I am told that is hypocritical and I just hate Lewis or something.

 

I won't hold it personally against a driver but as the rule is a complete joke I could never feel someone winning it because of double points was ever the rightful champion (Hamilton, Rosberg, Ricciardo etc.). It's not anything against a specific driver and I'm not bashing them, this double points rule is just something else. It shouldn't be in the sport.

 

Everyone has their own opinion and it's admirable that you're able to take such a fair minded view on it.

[Rinehart]

If Rosberg wins because of double points why is that factually incorrect ?  He may win because the number of ways he can do so has multiplied from 6 to 25 permutations.

I'm sure you know perfectly well that there are various possible scenarios, so in the scenario where Rosberg wins the race and Lewis finishes 3rd for instance, he wins BECAUSE of the double points, but if he wins and Lewis finishes 6th for instance, he does NOT win because of the double points (as he'd have been champion anyway). 

 

So, on Sunday evening, anyone is bleeting about double points in the eventuality that scenario B here occurs, they will be making a fool of themselves.

Edited by Rinehart, 18 November 2014 - 10:22.

[Dzeidzei]

Dont think we will have to debate on the double points rule. I believer Ham will choke like he did in Brazil07. Now theres even more wrong buttons to push.

[Jon83]

With both drivers scoring in a double points race, Rosberg has four times the number of scenarios where he can be WDC than with single points.

 

Look at the chart

 

http://www.f1fanatic...ix-stats-facts/

 

Sure but if everything runs normally, Mercedes will be 1-2 by several country miles so the double-points won't decide the title.

 

Rosberg needs a hell of a lot of luck to leave Abu-Dhabi with the WDC and nobody is going to get close to Mercedes.
 

[Nonesuch]

Sure but if everything runs normally, Mercedes will be 1-2 by several country miles so the double-points won't decide the title.

Right. While it's good to get the facts straight with regards to the points, it's all a bit academic in light of Mercedes' dominance.

[emmanuelrubi]

Let me see if i get this straight, based on what all the people who support LH and claim that NR wont be a "worthy" champion bc Lewis has won a lot more, based on that, then Mercedes or McLaren or Ferrari should sign Pastor Maldonado because he has won and neither Grosjean, Bottas, Perez nor Hulkenberg have done that, surely Pastor Maldonado is a top gun, yes a driver with more points is not as "worthy" as Pastor because even that all the other drivers have more points, Pastor has a win and in this sport winning more races instead of having more points its what is all about to be champion and a "worthy" one.

Edited by emmanuelrubi, 18 November 2014 - 17:50.

[Collombin]

And breathe out. I can sell you some full stops if you like.

[Biggles Flies Undone]

I'm sure you know perfectly well that there are various possible scenarios, so in the scenario where Rosberg wins the race and Lewis finishes 3rd for instance, he wins BECAUSE of the double points, but if he wins and Lewis finishes 6th for instance, he does NOT win because of the double points (as he'd have been champion anyway). 

 

So, on Sunday evening, anyone is bleeting about double points in the eventuality that scenario B here occurs, they will be making a fool of themselves.

 

Half my income comes from trading on Betfair so I probably should understand what is going on here.

 

Without double points Hamilton would be WDC finishing 6th if Rosberg wins.

[string158]

Dont think we will have to debate on the double points rule. I believer Ham will choke like he did in Brazil07. Now theres even more wrong buttons to push.

 

 

First person to wipe out in the pit tunnel? 

[Biggles Flies Undone]

Sure but if everything runs normally, Mercedes will be 1-2 by several country miles so the double-points won't decide the title.

 

Rosberg needs a hell of a lot of luck to leave Abu-Dhabi with the WDC and nobody is going to get close to Mercedes.
 

 

That is true however the double points have shortened the odds for Rosberg and lengthened them for Hamilton.

Edited by Biggles Flies Undone, 18 November 2014 - 19:07.

[EndlessMotion]

Let me see if i get this straight, based on what all the people who support LH and claim that NR wont be a "worthy" champion bc Lewis has won a lot more, based on that, then Mercedes or McLaren or Ferrari should sign Pastor Maldonado because he has won and neither Grosjean, Bottas, Perez nor Hulkenberg have done that, surely Pastor Maldonado is a top gun, yes a driver with more points is not as "worthy" as Pastor because even that all the other drivers have more points, Pastor has a win and in this sport winning more races instead of having more points its what is all about to be champion and a "worthy" one.

 

I know what you're trying to say but for some people (entitled to their own opinion as you are) there's nothing "deserved" if a driver were to win the title directly because of double points at the last race. There's nothing deserving about being handed a title via double points for nothing other than the rule makers deciding it would make things more exciting.

 

Everybody is going to have their own view on it depending on what driver they like or dislike or simply how they view the rule itself. My opinion is that if Nico were to win in Abu Dhabi with Lewis scoring a DNF then whilst I'd be pretty unimpressed after watching Lewis do a better job all year, Nico would be champion with or without the double points so tough luck to Lewis and his fans. If Nico wins it in a scenario where it's only because of the double points I personally won't feel that Nico is a worthy champion. All he'd have done in my eyes is do enough to come second in the WDC but be handed some mickey mouse double points for sod all that happen to make him the WDC.

 

Just because it's in the rules this year it doesn't mean it makes a double points world champion worthy. It's a god awful rule that should never have made it out of the tiny mind of whoever thought it up. It makes a mockery of the points the drivers have fought for over the course of the season IMO.

 

That said, Nico wouldn't give a damn if that's how he won the title and he wouldn't give a damn about my opinion or anyone else's who thought it stank. Good luck to both drivers. I just hope whoever is champion come Sunday night, will have won it without the double points being a factor.

[DrivenF1]

I know what you're trying to say but for some people (entitled to their own opinion as you are) there's nothing "deserved" if a driver were to win the title directly because of double points at the last race. There's nothing deserving about being handed a title via double points for nothing other than the rule makers deciding it would make things more exciting.

 

Everybody is going to have their own view on it depending on what driver they like or dislike or simply how they view the rule itself. My opinion is that if Nico were to win in Abu Dhabi with Lewis scoring a DNF then whilst I'd be pretty unimpressed after watching Lewis do a better job all year, Nico would be champion with or without the double points so tough luck to Lewis and his fans. If Nico wins it in a scenario where it's only because of the double points I personally won't feel that Nico is a worthy champion. All he'd have done in my eyes is do enough to come second in the WDC but be handed some mickey mouse double points for sod all that happen to make him the WDC.

 

Just because it's in the rules this year it doesn't mean it makes a double points world champion worthy. It's a god awful rule that should never have made it out of the tiny mind of whoever thought it up. It makes a mockery of the points the drivers have fought for over the course of the season IMO.

 

That said, Nico wouldn't give a damn if that's how he won the title and he wouldn't give a damn about my opinion or anyone else's who thought it stank. Good luck to both drivers. I just hope whoever is champion come Sunday night, will have won it without the double points being a factor.

 

Perfect. Exactly how I feel too.

 

Retirements etc. are part of the game so if Rosberg wins through a mechanical issue at least it will be a valid win. I have a feeling Lewis fans are a bit tired of retirements effectively outside of his control (e.g. Spain and Singapore 2010; and Abu Dhabi, Singapore and Brazil in 2012.)

[Rickyf1]

I know what you're trying to say but for some people (entitled to their own opinion as you are) there's nothing "deserved" if a driver were to win the title directly because of double points at the last race. There's nothing deserving about being handed a title via double points for nothing other than the rule makers deciding it would make things more exciting.

Everybody is going to have their own view on it depending on what driver they like or dislike or simply how they view the rule itself. My opinion is that if Nico were to win in Abu Dhabi with Lewis scoring a DNF then whilst I'd be pretty unimpressed after watching Lewis do a better job all year, Nico would be champion with or without the double points so tough luck to Lewis and his fans. If Nico wins it in a scenario where it's only because of the double points I personally won't feel that Nico is a worthy champion. All he'd have done in my eyes is do enough to come second in the WDC but be handed some mickey mouse double points for sod all that happen to make him the WDC.

Just because it's in the rules this year it doesn't mean it makes a double points world champion worthy. It's a god awful rule that should never have made it out of the tiny mind of whoever thought it up. It makes a mockery of the points the drivers have fought for over the course of the season IMO.

That said, Nico wouldn't give a damn if that's how he won the title and he wouldn't give a damn about my opinion or anyone else's who thought it stank. Good luck to both drivers. I just hope whoever is champion come Sunday night, will have won it without the double points being a factor.

Totally agree.

[F1matt]

The sport is becoming more and more of a joke and will give the people who don't like the sport another chance to bash it, but life goes on and he wont be the only undeserving world champ we have had. Come to think of it he wont be the only undeserving world champ in the Rosberg household....

[Longtimefan]

Let me see if i get this straight, based on what all the people who support LH and claim that NR wont be a "worthy" champion bc Lewis has won a lot more, based on that, then Mercedes or McLaren or Ferrari should sign Pastor Maldonado because he has won and neither Grosjean, Bottas, Perez nor Hulkenberg have done that, surely Pastor Maldonado is a top gun, yes a driver with more points is not as "worthy" as Pastor because even that all the other drivers have more points, Pastor has a win and in this sport winning more races instead of having more points its what is all about to be champion and a "worthy" one.

I have to say I found it rather amusing many times this season in the Lewis v Nico thread, the amount of people that raved that whoever wins the most races should be champion and its unfair if someone with fewer wins is the WDC.   I often wonder if they missed 2008. 

[DrivenF1]

I have to say I found it rather amusing many times this season in the Lewis v Nico thread, the amount of people that raved that whoever wins the most races should be champion and its unfair if someone with fewer wins is the WDC.   I often wonder if they missed 2008. 

 

Yes, it was extremely unfair that Felipe Massa (in another team) won 5 races legitimately while the undeserved world champion Lewis Hamilton won only 6 races legitimately.

 

That's exactly the same as one teammate winning 10 times compared to their teammate winning 5 times. Can I hire you to make balloon animals, you seem to be a master of twisting things.

[garoidb]

Yes, it was extremely unfair that Felipe Massa (in another team) won 5 races legitimately while the undeserved world champion Lewis Hamilton won only 6 races legitimately.

 

That's exactly the same as one teammate winning 10 times compared to their teammate winning 5 times. Can I hire you to make balloon animals, you seem to be a master of twisting things.

 

It would be nice to see Felipe get another podium on Sunday. Let's hope he can mix it with the Mercedes cars to give us an interesting race.

[EthanM]

Yes, it was extremely unfair that Felipe Massa (in another team) won 5 races legitimately while the undeserved world champion Lewis Hamilton won only 6 races legitimately.

 

Wait ... what? You got those numbers wrong way around methinks

[YoungGun]

Yes, it was extremely unfair that Felipe Massa (in another team) won 5 races legitimately while the undeserved world champion Lewis Hamilton won only 6 races legitimately.

 

I could have sworn it was 6 to 5 in Massa's favour. Though I have been wrong before.

[garoidb]

I could have sworn it was 6 to 5 in Massa's favour. Though I have been wrong before.

 

There is an imaginary world inhabited by some.

[Jon83]

That is true however the double points have shortened the odds for Rosberg and lengthened them for Hamilton.

 

Maybe so but if the cars are reliable, they'll finish 1 and 2 and this forum will avoid the inevitable explosion which would follow Rosberg winning because of double points 

[Collombin]

There is an imaginary world inhabited by some.

The Spa stewards.

[DrivenF1]

The Spa stewards.

 

Correct. The other way to look at it is Hamilton crossed the line first 5 times (excluding Spa) and so did Felipe. They had a very similar amount of wins. It's not the same as this year where one driver has twice as many wins.

 

It's why I explicitly mentioned the word legitimately.  

 

Any way, this is getting off topic so best to get back onto double points. Double points like shady FIA intervention can cast a cloud over the overall result. Let's hope double points aren't a factor. I still really like Nico as a driver (he's been my third/fourth driver since he entered the sport and I think he's generally a likeable guy) and wouldn't begrudge him as a WDC.

Edited by Cult, 18 November 2014 - 22:33.

[garoidb]

The Spa stewards.

 

No, the Spa decision was completely correct and fair.

[emmanuelrubi]

Yes, it was extremely unfair that Felipe Massa (in another team) won 5 races legitimately while the undeserved world champion Lewis Hamilton won only 6 races legitimately.

 

That's exactly the same as one teammate winning 10 times compared to their teammate winning 5 times. Can I hire you to make balloon animals, you seem to be a master of twisting things.

 

Im going Leave this here so you check who really won more races before talking nonsense, the number "1" means that he won a race so you should check to see if Massa did won only 5 and Lewis won 6.

 

Edited by emmanuelrubi, 18 November 2014 - 22:52.

[MP422]

Im going Leave this here so you check who really won more races before talking nonsense, the number "1" means that he won a race so you should check to see if Massa did won only 5 and Lewis won 6.

 

 

 

[ensign14]

Im going Leave this here so you check who really won more races before talking nonsense, the number "1" means that he won a race so you should check to see if Massa did won only 5 and Lewis won 6.

 

 

You have to take out the fact that Mosley's hatchetman told the stewards at Spa to make up a penalty for Hamilton so that Ferrari could cheat a win.  Hamilton won six races in an inferior car to Massa's five.

[Collombin]

Im going Leave this here so you check who really won more races before talking nonsense, the number "1" means that he won a race so you should check to see if Massa did won only 5 and Lewis won 6.

Oh dear. Ever heard the Niki Lauda story about his response to being told he was officially a non starter in the 1976 German GP?

"Then where the f*** is my ear?"

[emmanuelrubi]

You have to take out the fact that Mosley's hatchetman told the stewards at Spa to make up a penalty for Hamilton so that Ferrari could cheat a win.  Hamilton won six races in an inferior car to Massa's five.

 

It doesn't matter, if in the numbers it says Massa won, then Massa won, the numbers are there, Massa won 6 races, Lewis 5, go and check www.formula1.com the numbers are there to stay and you could say they cheated or whatever but the fact is that in 2008 Massa won 6 Lewis won 5, Lewis was champion in 2008 and if Rosberg wins this year and the numbers say so he will be champion doesn't matter who won more, the rule says whoever has more points by the end of the season will be champions, it never says the one who won more races, nor the one who deserve it the most, the rule says that the final race should be double points and it wasn't added yesterday to help Nico all the drivers were told in advanced i bet you would be loving Bernie if Lewis was the one who needed the double points.

Edited by emmanuelrubi, 18 November 2014 - 23:01.

[Longtimefan]

You have to take out the fact that Mosley's hatchetman told the stewards at Spa to make up a penalty for Hamilton so that Ferrari could cheat a win.  Hamilton won six races in an inferior car to Massa's five.

Sorry, the history books say different and sour grapes really don't cut it.

[Burtros]

Correct. The other way to look at it is Hamilton crossed the line first 5 times (excluding Spa) and so did Felipe. They had a very similar amount of wins. It's not the same as this year where one driver has twice as many wins.

 

It's why I explicitly mentioned the word legitimately.  

 

Any way, this is getting off topic so best to get back onto double points. Double points like shady FIA intervention can cast a cloud over the overall result. Let's hope double points aren't a factor. I still really like Nico as a driver (he's been my third/fourth driver since he entered the sport and I think he's generally a likeable guy) and wouldn't begrudge him as a WDC.

 

Or you could just say Felipe won 6 Lewis 5 races. As for the stewards, Ill leave it that I think they further established the principle of handing a place back on that day, rather than applying the rules as they had been up to that point. I dont any longer object to the decision though, and it hardly matters given the outcome of that season.

 

On a more upto date theme, I agree we need to hope the whole double points thing is not a factor. If Nico takes the title it'll be a win for him and a DNF for Hamilton or something. I think the most defining aspect of a this double points thing will unravel if it is dropped next year, which looks likely. I dont think theres much hope for Nico this weekend, but should he prevail somehow I think the long term value of his title will be determined more by wether he becomes either the 'first' double points champion of the 'Only' double points champion, rather than the events on track this year. Double Points would be this years headline, not Hamilton unreliability.

 

If Nico ends up the first Double Points Champ, history will become kinder as we see more turn arounds like this again.

If he ends up the only Double Points Champ, it'll stand out in history as something a bit different for the wrong reasons. Ultimately I dont know if that'll bother him - afterall, it wont change history and his name would be on the list, the 1 on his car. I wont be one of those denying it the unlikely event he wins.

Edited by Burtros, 18 November 2014 - 23:07.

[DrivenF1]

It doesn't matter, if in the numbers it says Massa won, then Massa won, the numbers are there, Massa won 6 races, Lewis 5, go and check www.formula1.com the numbers are there to stay and you could say they cheated or whatever but the fact is that in 2008 Massa won 6 Lewis won 5, Lewis was champion in 2008 and if Rosberg wins this year and the numbers say so he will be champion doesn't matter who won more, the rule says whoever has more points by the end of the season will be champions, it never says the one who won more races, nor the one who deserve it the most, the rule says that the final race should be double points and it wasn't added yesterday to help Nico all the drivers were told in advanced i bet you would be loving Bernie if Lewis was the one who needed the double points.

 

 

Im going Leave this here so you check who really won more races before talking nonsense, the number "1" means that he won a race so you should check to see if Massa did won only 5 and Lewis won 6.

 

 

I guess Alonso's Singapore win was completely legitimate and deserved too? Good to know. If the history book says it, it must be right.

 

Sorry, the history books say different and sour grapes really don't cut it.

 

The main point is you were trying to say because Nico has won half of the races Lewis has, that anyone using that as evidence for why Hamilton is the more deserved champion is hypocritical. This is despite the obvious flaws in the comparison. One being that Nico and Lewis are in the same car. The second being 10-5 is hardly comparable to 6-5, even if you use the win Massa totally deserved in Spa.

 

Your argument is predicated on a whole barrel of logical fallacies.

[turssi]

I didn't verify his numbers or anything but Heikki Kulta writes that with double points Kimi would have been champ in 2003, Felipe in 2008, Seb in 2009 and Fernando in 2012. Not totally undeserved results ?-)


http://ts.fi/moottor...a tuplamestarin

[DinosaursRoarForHugs]

Comparing this year to Hamilton-Massa in 2008 is just nonsense! On that occasion the two challengers were in different cars, and with the benefit of hindsight I don't think it's unfair to say that the Ferrari was by a small margin the better car that year. We have much and more proof that neither Massa nor Raikkonen (yes, I know he's not as good as he used to be) are Alonso-level, and the only real comparison we have between Alonso and Lewis showed those two to be very close, so it's fair to assume that the cars weren't totally equal in 2008

 

- my point is that Massa won more races because he had more realistic opportunities to win that season. This season Hamilton and Rosberg have had the same machinery and thus, barring mechanical issues, theoretically the same chance of winning each race

 

This is why I'd be pissed if Rosberg won because of double points. I do think Lewis has been much more convincing this year. But equally they knew the rules all season, it'd just be a bit of a slap in the face 

[ensign14]

Sorry, the history books say different and sour grapes really don't cut it.

 

You are confusing history with statistics.  The Great Book Of Motor Racing will say that Hamilton won that race and was cheated out of it by FIA bias.

 

And I know, for I have written it.

 

[garoidb]

You are confusing history with statistics.  The Great Book Of Motor Racing will say that Hamilton won that race and was cheated out of it by FIA bias.

 

And I know, for I have written it.

 

 

Your book might not be as great as you think it is. 

[learningtobelost]

Wait... so you're saying 10 wins to 5 over a team mate in equal machinery is the same as 5 wins to 6 in different teams? Ah, wait, I recognise those usernames!  It must be a hard year for you guys?

[MastaKink]

Couldn't vote as no option was applicable. I'd be pissed off but they're the rules so I'd view him as the champ and of course I'd carry on watching the sport.

 

 

Thankfully I don't think double points will play a role so i'm not worried.

[TheUltimateWorrier]

How will you react if Rosberg wins the title in a scenario enabled by double points?

 

 

But most likely, just 

[micktosin]

Comparing this year to Hamilton-Massa in 2008 is just nonsense! On that occasion the two challengers were in different cars, and with the benefit of hindsight I don't think it's unfair to say that the Ferrari was by a small margin the better car that year. We have much and more proof that neither Massa nor Raikkonen (yes, I know he's not as good as he used to be) are Alonso-level, and the only real comparison we have between Alonso and Lewis showed those two to be very close, so it's fair to assume that the cars weren't totally equal in 2008

 

- my point is that Massa won more races because he had more realistic opportunities to win that season. This season Hamilton and Rosberg have had the same machinery and thus, barring mechanical issues, theoretically the same chance of winning each race

 

This is why I'd be pissed if Rosberg won because of double points. I do think Lewis has been much more convincing this year. But equally they knew the rules all season, it'd just be a bit of a slap in the face 

Sounds logical

[Redzone]

As I said......

[bonjon1979a]

Double points actually gave a fair indication of the gap between lewis and nico on race day.

[Redzone]

Was there ever any doubt?

 

As I said Mercedes is racing to sell cars. The days of Enzo Ferrari who sold cars to go racing are over. 

 

Welcome to the prostitution of Formula One in toto, (pun intended), so Mercedes can sell more cars

 

Lewis more marketable and fits the image of those to whom Mercedes wish to sell more cars.

 

Simple. How else do you explain Austin, the unbelievable wiring loom problem at Singapore, Monza (oh yeah sure, that was the "other punishment" hinted at by the top dogs at Mercedes--remember the smile on Toto's face when it happened?) 

 

Then here comes the final when the power unit electrical problem kicks in........nothing like a little insurance....

 

All became clear after Hungary, where Lewis ran Nico off the road, an act that has gone almost unnoticed, but when Lewis aggressively cut off Nico at Spa and got a puncture, the barking explosion from Mercedes top dogs.......

 

Welcome to the prostitution of Formula One in toto (pun intended), so Mercedes can sell more cars with the more marketable driver

 

Time to go back to sleep....

 

Money for nothing and your chicks for free....

[D.M.N.]

This didn't happen, so no real discussion to be gained in here. Closing thread.