. If you never went to a race with the V10's, I feel bad, because the videos will never do it justice. It was more a 'presence' than a sound. You could've been a mile away from IMS and felt it in the air before you heard it--no joke. The V10's just spoke to a sixth sense that you didn't know you had until you heard them--I don't know how else to describe it other than it was intoxicating.
My first F1 live experience was at Spa 1998. I came to a track side camping with a friend in an old caravan in the middle of the night. In the early morning i woke up by a sound that was so unknown to me and it came through the woods from far out of the pits.
While we approached the track the sound got louder and louder. It was a sinister, almost frightening howling scream that raised the hairs on my arms and made my heart beat faster.
It turned out, it was Mika Hakkinen's McLaren MP4-13 V10 that was revving to temperature in the pits and leaving it.
By the time we entered the track through the main gate, the first thing i ever saw of F1 was Mika coming from La Source and speeding to climbing Eau-Rouge with a speed and sound i never could have imagined. From that moment my soul was sold to F1 and McLaren!
In 2004 i was at the Hungaroring, having grandstand seats opposite of the pits at the starting grid. After the formation lap when all 20 cars were revving for the start, my vision became all blurry because the screaming sounds made the grandstands vibrate so hard that even my vision got cloudy.
My girlfriend at that time wasn't interested in F1 before. After that experience she joined me every following year as long we were together. Hell, she even joined me two times after we are separated because she did like the experience and the sounds so much. No need to tell, this year she couldn't be bothered.
Problem is, these days such a formula would create cars able to go faster than humanly possible.
True, and perhaps absolutely no regulations is not a good idea. But opening up the regulations doesn't mean the FIA should also abolish crash-tests. And let's not pretend that today's F1 cars are anywhere close to the limits of human drivers. They're not.
It also makes no sense for the constructors to build cars that are faster than the drivers can go. Mistakes would be made along the way, sure, but the constructors will attempt to improve their cars in areas where it makes sense to, not in areas where no driver will be able to exploit it.
Opening up the regulations means that the limits of the car get pushed further out, which means more mistakes by the driver and more opportunity for them to showcase their talents. This is a good thing, because it makes races more lively, results less predictable, and it is a greater challenge to the drivers.
Let's be honest: most of us here are car geeks. And an integral component of any car, to most of us geeks, is the sound it makes.
The sound is the reason I got hooked on F1. If you never went to a race with the V10's, I feel bad, because the videos will never do it justice. It was more a 'presence' than a sound. You could've been a mile away from IMS and felt it in the air before you heard it--no joke. The V10's just spoke to a sixth sense that you didn't know you had until you heard them--I don't know how else to describe it other than it was intoxicating. First you'd feel a subtle change in the air, then you'd hear a sound kind of like thunder--except it was coming from something moving at 200 MPH and headed your way. As it got closer, you'd hear the first signs of the most unearthly, furious howl, which eventually grew into this defeaning sonic kaleidoscope that enveloped you with every frequency you can pick up as it approached. And just as quickly as it came, it would leave--just barely trailing the car that flashed by, taking the amazing mechanical sympathy with it around the track at the same breakneck speed.
One. Car.
It's hard to apply a multiplicative factor to an experience on this scale, but do your best to imagine that times 22. There are no words.
I don't think it would be an exaggeration of any sort to say that the new cars simply shrivel in comparison. The mind boggles that anyone could consider the sound a non-essential component of a sport comprised of the world's ultimate racing machines.
I think LdM's generally a nutter, but boy did he ever get it right when he referred to 'engine music' as being one of the most important traits of a Ferrari.
To be honest, your post gives me the impression that the one thing you appreciate the post of all ist the loudness of one car. One.
And then have 22 of them.
Granted, that can be an experience if loudness is all you care about and when you are able to live with 140 and more dB noise levels.
I am sorry but if the loudness of an engine is what it is all about, that has nothing to do with what LdM referred to as engine music.
Loud engines you can hear at NASCAR or, even better: dragstrips. They produce nothing that comes close to being music.
I've heard musical engines in the past and they were musical because they were not built on generating the highest level of power at all costs, meaning that they are revving at 19000 rpm and stall when getting too much below 10000 rpm like these bellowing V10s and V8s
Some posts ago I described how I enjoyed hearing Ferrari 333SP Sports cars engines in action. Engines that needed to be powerful yet alos torque over a wider rev band and thus could rev freely and easily over that entire rev band. And because it was nowhere near 19000 rpm is wasn't just nothing else but an eardrum pearcing screaming.
Keeping it in music comparisons: To me those F1 V10s and V8s of recent years is like listening to Luciano Pavarotti screaming while reaching his highest notes: Loud and no syllabe of what words he tries to speak out while singing can be understood because it is nothing else but plain screaming.
The 333SP on the other hand was for me like listening to a popsinger like, for example: Neil Diamond or Elton John. The voice powerful enough yet every word he sings can still be understood while he goes from his higher to the lower tones and the variety in tones making a melody.
To be honest, your post gives me the impression that the one thing you appreciate the post of all ist the loudness of one car. One.
And then have 22 of them.
Granted, that can be an experience if loudness is all you care about and when you are able to live with 140 and more dB noise levels.
I am sorry but if the loudness of an engine is what it is all about, that has nothing to do with what LdM referred to as engine music.
Loud engines you can hear at NASCAR or, even better: dragstrips. They produce nothing that comes close to being music.
I've heard musical engines in the past and they were musical because they were not built on generating the highest level of power at all costs, meaning that they are revving at 19000 rpm and stall when getting too much below 10000 rpm like these bellowing V10s and V8s
Some posts ago I described how I enjoyed hearing Ferrari 333SP Sports cars engines in action. Engines that needed to be powerful yet alos torque over a wider rev band and thus could rev freely and easily over that entire rev band. And because it was nowhere near 19000 rpm is wasn't just nothing else but an eardrum pearcing screaming.
Keeping it in music comparisons: To me those F1 V10s and V8s of recent years is like listening to Luciano Pavarotti screaming while reaching his highest notes: Loud and no syllabe of what words he tries to speak out while singing can be understood because it is nothing else but plain screaming.
The 333SP on the other hand was for me like listening to a popsinger like, for example: Neil Diamond or Elton John. The voice powerful enough yet every word he sings can still be understood while he goes from his higher to the lower tones and the variety in tones making a melody.
Henri
Current engines is like listening to pavarotti mumbling in his sleep.
The sound problem with current engines could be easily fixed.
TWIN TURBOS and there will be better sound once again, not too loud for those that dont like loud screamming engines.
Not to silent for those that love Loud screamming engines.
Granted, that can be an experience if loudness is all you care about and when you are able to live with 140 and more dB noise levels.
Nobody says that sound is ALL they care about, but most who prefer the old engine sounds agree it definitely added a big piece of excitement to their F1 experience. It was the sound that made going to a track really massively impressive.
First time Red Bull are not winning any titles in a few years, and Horner is coming up with this nonsense.
I can't take the guy seriously, he was ever so smug when things were going right for his team, and yet now he is acting as if he is trying to "help" the sport he was so happy to dominate for a few years.
To be honest, your post gives me the impression that the one thing you appreciate the post of all ist the loudness of one car. One.
And then have 22 of them.
Granted, that can be an experience if loudness is all you care about and when you are able to live with 140 and more dB noise levels.
I am sorry but if the loudness of an engine is what it is all about, that has nothing to do with what LdM referred to as engine music.
Loud engines you can hear at NASCAR or, even better: dragstrips. They produce nothing that comes close to being music.
I've heard musical engines in the past and they were musical because they were not built on generating the highest level of power at all costs, meaning that they are revving at 19000 rpm and stall when getting too much below 10000 rpm like these bellowing V10s and V8s
Some posts ago I described how I enjoyed hearing Ferrari 333SP Sports cars engines in action. Engines that needed to be powerful yet alos torque over a wider rev band and thus could rev freely and easily over that entire rev band. And because it was nowhere near 19000 rpm is wasn't just nothing else but an eardrum pearcing screaming.
Keeping it in music comparisons: To me those F1 V10s and V8s of recent years is like listening to Luciano Pavarotti screaming while reaching his highest notes: Loud and no syllabe of what words he tries to speak out while singing can be understood because it is nothing else but plain screaming.
The 333SP on the other hand was for me like listening to a popsinger like, for example: Neil Diamond or Elton John. The voice powerful enough yet every word he sings can still be understood while he goes from his higher to the lower tones and the variety in tones making a melody.
Henri
I completely agree, but that's also the point--the V10's weren't just loud, they sounded amazing. Every single one of them had a different nature to it--the highs were a little higher in one, the lows had a little more bass in another, some of them sounded more hollow, some popped more on downshifts, etc. Granted, you needed some heavy ear-protection to hear all that, but that was part of the allure for me--without that intensely loud sound, you wouldn't feel it in your gut when the cars went by. These things demanded your respect, and through that gave the impression they were the ultimate.
Loud doesn't always mean it sounds good. NASCAR is an excellent example, as are most cars that run on the same Chevy V8--though admittedly the Corvette DPs don't sound to bad (kill me for saying that). For more from sportscars as another example, the Ferrari 458s and HPD ARX LMPs sound great. The ARX-03b, which runs a ~3 L turbo V6 revving just below the range of this year's F1 engines *ahem* power units, sounds particularly good I think, while the Ford EcoBoost, on the other hand--a turbocharged engine also ~3L in displacement--suffers from the same problems that plague the F1 engines: it just sounds flatulent and uninspiring in comparison. The point, I suppose, is that nobody will get it right all of the time sound-wise, but it would be nice if they could pick a formula that made that easier.
My favourite sound ever to come out of a car was produced by a 4.0 L V8 that only made it up to 12k rpm on a good day. This beauty, right here:
Sportscars are awesome for that--you get so many different kinds of sounds all at once. It's a feast for the senses, really.
Which is sort of my point about the new F1 engines--they're just lacking in every area which has ever made an engine sound appealing to me. From the right angle at the right time, Ferrari's doesn't sound too bad--but on the whole it's very disappointing. The aesthetics, paired with the sound, are a let-down.
But I digress--I've been over this ad infinitum before and am starting to feel like a broken record. Maybe I'm a broken record that everyone understands a little better at this point, at least.
To be honest, your post gives me the impression that the one thing you appreciate the post of all ist the loudness of one car. One.
And then have 22 of them.
Granted, that can be an experience if loudness is all you care about and when you are able to live with 140 and more dB noise levels.
I am sorry but if the loudness of an engine is what it is all about, that has nothing to do with what LdM referred to as engine music.
Loud engines you can hear at NASCAR or, even better: dragstrips. They produce nothing that comes close to being music.
I've heard musical engines in the past and they were musical because they were not built on generating the highest level of power at all costs, meaning that they are revving at 19000 rpm and stall when getting too much below 10000 rpm like these bellowing V10s and V8s
Some posts ago I described how I enjoyed hearing Ferrari 333SP Sports cars engines in action. Engines that needed to be powerful yet alos torque over a wider rev band and thus could rev freely and easily over that entire rev band. And because it was nowhere near 19000 rpm is wasn't just nothing else but an eardrum pearcing screaming.
Keeping it in music comparisons: To me those F1 V10s and V8s of recent years is like listening to Luciano Pavarotti screaming while reaching his highest notes: Loud and no syllabe of what words he tries to speak out while singing can be understood because it is nothing else but plain screaming.
The 333SP on the other hand was for me like listening to a popsinger like, for example: Neil Diamond or Elton John. The voice powerful enough yet every word he sings can still be understood while he goes from his higher to the lower tones and the variety in tones making a melody.
Henri
Can you see now? Sound isn't the most important, but to most of the fans (including me) are keen on listening to screaming beasts.
You don't even need to get rid of the new engines to get more sound/speed. A removal of the fuel flow, battery size and RPM limit would see screaming engines. But there would also be far more lift and coast at times because drivers would have to preserve fuel to make it to the end of the race.
V6T are here to stay. Less sound is a good thing it means more efficiency and efficiency is engineering progress.
I completely agree, but that's also the point--the V10's weren't just loud, they sounded amazing. Every single one of them had a different nature to it--the highs were a little higher in one, the lows had a little more bass in another, some of them sounded more hollow, some popped more on downshifts, etc. Granted, you needed some heavy ear-protection to hear all that, but that was part of the allure for me--without that intensely loud sound, you wouldn't feel it in your gut when the cars went by. These things demanded your respect, and through that gave the impression they were the ultimate.
Loud doesn't always mean it sounds good. NASCAR is an excellent example, as are most cars that run on the same Chevy V8--though admittedly the Corvette DPs don't sound to bad (kill me for saying that). For more from sportscars as another example, the Ferrari 458s and HPD ARX LMPs sound great. The ARX-03b, which runs a ~3 L turbo V6 revving just below the range of this year's F1 engines *ahem* power units, sounds particularly good I think, while the Ford EcoBoost, on the other hand--a turbocharged engine also ~3L in displacement--suffers from the same problems that plague the F1 engines: it just sounds flatulent and uninspiring in comparison. The point, I suppose, is that nobody will get it right all of the time sound-wise, but it would be nice if they could pick a formula that made that easier.
My favourite sound ever to come out of a car was produced by a 4.0 L V8 that only made it up to 12k rpm on a good day. This beauty, right here:
Sportscars are awesome for that--you get so many different kinds of sounds all at once. It's a feast for the senses, really.
Which is sort of my point about the new F1 engines--they're just lacking in every area which has ever made an engine sound appealing to me. From the right angle at the right time, Ferrari's doesn't sound too bad--but on the whole it's very disappointing. The aesthetics, paired with the sound, are a let-down.
But I digress--I've been over this ad infinitum before and am starting to feel like a broken record. Maybe I'm a broken record that everyone understands a little better at this point, at least.
Thanks for explaining your oriiginal vision in more detail.
There is a lot I can go along with you in this mail.
But for me, once the atmo engines of the mid '90 began to rev faster than 13000 ore therabout rpms, it simply became too loud for me to be able to cope with the noise, despite the ear protection I (must) use. It became a painful ordeal for me by then to such an extend that the pain was stronger than the ability to hear the difference between the different brands of engines anymore, The difference in scream was not noticable for me anymore.
Before the rise of the first Turbos, Icould deal with the then current atmos and I liked the 12s the best of all.
The early V10s were on the edge of what I could handle and thus Okay'ish but after 1995 any fun in listenling to F1's went away for me.
By the way: in the first turbo era I could identify the different brands of engines on sound alone and even when more Renault powered cars were around I could hear the differnce between a Renault factory car and a Lotus or a Ligier. So it is not that I can't hear minor differences in sound. But once it became the insane rpm levels inspired screaming that is been so "loudly" embraced by some over here, I couldn't deal with it anymore. For me it then became painfully loud screaming in which the pain was so sever that it overwhelmed any enjoyment I could have had if the level of noise had been not that loud.
I dare to say about myself that I am an engine sound fan, I love the older, slower revving engines, even the deafening BRM V16 is fine with me when I protect my ears good enough for it.
but I am definitely not an engine noise fan like the people out here who want the last generations of V8s and V10s back.
Current engines is like listening to pavarotti mumbling in his sleep.
The sound problem with current engines could be easily fixed.
TWIN TURBOS and there will be better sound once again, not too loud for those that dont like loud screamming engines.
Not to silent for those that love Loud screamming engines.
I think that you could be right with the twinturbo solution.
Difficulty with it is that right now the single turbo is located at a very convenient place, also with respect to the dynamo-ish function it has.
When you go to twinturbo, no matter if they are used for loading the batteries as well, there will be a problem to locate the turbos, Where to put them? Putting two where right now is only one will be difficult. Maybe they can be relocated to the side pods, like with the First generation Turbo F1. But that will cause havoc for the air flow along and over the sideposd and between fuselage and rear wheels.
Aerodynamisists won't be happy with that solution. But I would like it because it probably ensures a massive loss of aero generated downforce of the cars too.
Nobody says that sound is ALL they care about, but most who prefer the old engine sounds agree it definitely added a big piece of excitement to their F1 experience. It was the sound that made going to a track really massively impressive.
You reply on a message in which I write about the noise with introducing sound?
Therre is a big difference in sound and noise.
At least for me: sound can be anything between nice or horrible, noise can be anything between soft and loud.
I get the feeling that most out here who like the old F1 V8 and V10 atmos care more about the loud noise levels of these engines that their nice sound.
I doubt how many over here who are so thriiled about the noise of the V10s and V8s still would be so enthusiastic about them if they still made that screaming sound but at much lower noise levels.
Would you still be so excited about listening to a screaming V10 if it was just as loud as the current V6T's package? I doubt if many V10 fans would still get so beserk about it then.
To be honest, your post gives me the impression that the one thing you appreciate the post of all ist the loudness of one car. One.
And then have 22 of them.
Granted, that can be an experience if loudness is all you care about and when you are able to live with 140 and more dB noise levels.
Before this year I was reliably informed that a single F1 car makes about 110 dB, so I suggest your 140 dB for 22 of them is way over the top.
I notice quite a few folk are claiming to represent the views of most of the fans, suggestion, ask some of us first because I am quite capable of doing my own talking and making my own points, cheers
To my great regret I never got to hear a Novi - stood next to one once though, and was drooling!
I was just talking about F1 cars of the recent past, and really just making the point that 22 cars are not remotely 22 times louder than 1 car. I know you and most others would know that already, but a few may not.
To my great regret I never got to hear a Novi - stood next to one once though, and was drooling!
I was just talking about F1 cars of the recent past, and really just making the point that 22 cars are not remotely 22 times louder than 1 car. I know you and most others would know that already, but a few may not.
Shame you have missed out on a Novi.
EDIT: sorry no shame of course: a pity. End EDIT
I've had the privilege to crank one up twice when Patrick Nalon drove some demo laps at the Speedway in May 2011.
I did not heard the Novi being revved up to the max that day, that was in 1988 at Goodwood, though it was the same car and engine.. It made such an awful amount of noise that the majority of the people behind it took a distance and/or went over to stant in front of the car instead of behind it.
The level was indeed awful eventually, yet standing in fornt of it ans also hear that supercharger whine......
back to you your mail. Point taken and understood.
Still I wonder: if a dB meter had been in the rescue car behind a 2013 starting field, what it would have read in the seconds before the start....
henri
Edited by Henri Greuter, 13 November 2014 - 10:02.
I think the measurements were taken trackside at the start of the 2010 British GP, but I don't know the exact distances involved. I think it did say, but I can't remember any more.
I would love to get the V8's back or even the v10. Why? Because the V8/V10 has a amazing sound. But esp. with the V8 the engines are cheap compared to the V6T. I would love to have FI racing with a Merc V8 or Renault V8. If that would allow them to spent some more money on the rest of the cars, that would be better for competition. Also the sound of the V6T, Offcourse it can get better next year but that sound... I have seen them in Spa and I could hear the tires above the engine. And even with 22 cars racing in to Eau Rouge it just doesn't sound right. It didn't give me goosebumps. The V8 on the other hand... Even 1 lousy F1 car gives me goosebumps. What a sound.
But the main problem I have with the V6T is the cost aspect. It is ridiculous that a single engine deal cost around 24-28 Million dollar, where the V8's cost around 15Mil a year. I think that the FIA should have said to the Manufactors that the engine must not be sold for more then 10-15 million. That way we still would have Marussia. But the idea of a Super GP2 as second class in F1 is also something I would like. At least to get the grid to around 26-30 cars. But also the fact that there are only 3, and a 4th coming, manufactors is reason for the high costs. I would expect to see lower cost when Cosworth would develop a V6T package.
V8s sounded whiny and annoying. Yes the V6 turbos are a bit quiet but it is cool to be able to hear the tyres squealing and the crowd cheering when someone makes a pass.
I do think they should lift the restriction on fuel flow though, that seems a bit unnecessary imo. If one engine is more fuel efficient and is able to use a higher fuel than the current limit flow while staying within the 100kg fuel per race then it should be allowed to.
haha! at the beginning of the season it was "OMG! these cars aren't even as fast as the V8, whats the point?"
now it's "OMG! these cars are as fast as last year's cars, what's the point?"
I guess i'm the only one who noticed all the talk of slowing the cars down for "safety reasons" when rules for this season were being explained, which was their justification for gimping front and rear aero. Where as this season we've ended up with faster and harder to control cars (especially those towards the back), oh yeah and a driver seriously injured. Real hilarious.
Edited by mercedessurearepopularnow, 15 November 2014 - 14:57.
I guess i'm the only one who noticed all the talk of slowing the cars down for "safety reasons" when rules for this season were being explained, which was their justification for gimping front and rear aero. Where as this season we've ended up with faster and harder to control cars (especially those towards the back), oh yeah and a driver seriously injured. Real hilarious.
You weren't the only one who noticed - you just misunderstood what was being said. The cars are slowed down periodically because there is a theoretical unsafe limit that the FIA don't want the cars to reach which they inevitably will do if allowed to continue develop so they allow the cars to get relatively close to it then reign them back, allow them to develop again, reign them back again and so on. This has been going on since at least 2004 if not before. In other words the speed of the 2013 cars wasn't unsafe, they were just slowed down before they were developed to the point where they were.
You weren't the only one who noticed - you just misunderstood what was being said. The cars are slowed down periodically because there is a theoretical unsafe limit that the FIA don't want the cars to reach which they inevitably will do if allowed to continue develop so they allow the cars to get relatively close to it then reign them back, allow them to develop again, reign them back again and so on. This has been going on since at least 2004 if not before. In other words the speed of the 2013 cars wasn't unsafe, they were just slowed down before they were developed to the point where they were.
I never said the 2013 cars were unsafe, i said the aero was gimped to slow them down under the justification it needed to be done for safety reasons, i just get the feeling they won't be doing the same with the engine power output, even though it's making some of the cars even faster than they were last year, with less grip to control them, and no doubt even faster still next year by the sounds of it.
Edited by mercedessurearepopularnow, 15 November 2014 - 15:47.
I never said the 2013 cars were unsafe, i said the aero was gimped to slow them down under the justification it needed to be done for safety reasons, i just get the feeling they won't be doing the same with the engine power output, even though it's making some of the cars even faster than they were last year, with less grip to control them, and no doubt even faster still next year by the sounds of it.
Yes but the point is that they don't need to be because they aren't yet at the stage where they are unsafe. They won't be doing it with engines because the slowing down is done every few years in line with other major rule changes rather than in reaction to any particular speed.
Interesting that someone thinks the cars are now 'too fast' and 'too hard too drive', when there were many complaints at the beginning of the season was that they were too slow and easy to drive.
Interesting that someone thinks the cars are now 'too fast' and 'too hard too drive', when there were many complaints at the beginning of the season was that they were too slow and easy to drive.
If you can't see the potential risks in gimping aero + an all out maximum power/straight line performance war then fine. But the warning signs are there with Bianchis accident.
Edited by mercedessurearepopularnow, 15 November 2014 - 19:51.
If you can't see the potential risks in gimping aero + an all out maximum power/straight line performance war then fine. But the warning signs are there with Bianchis accident.
Me thinks you have missed the point by the proverbial mile ... Ex flag man was a marshal and Im sure you know what a marshals job description is!
Cutting aero downforce reduces cornering speed and hence the energy that needs to be dissipated during an accident which is a good thing given that the majority of accidents occur in corners.
Lap times have diminished over the years as a result of aero, not power - the first turbo cars had much more power than the current ones but lap times where higher as they could not use all the power.
