166 replies to this topic

[f1angry]

Mercedes Benz Killing F1

 

Will no body speak out, or are you all to blinkered to see this.

 

As a 50+ year follower of F1 I am furious that the F1 authorities have allowed Mercedes to do this to F1.

 

Mercedes have been clever enough to do an x-factor, where by their main car company is getting free R&D

to the tune of well over half a billion dollars for engine/power plant development for free. I may be out with those

figures, but 150 from F1 plus 100 from other sponsors plus 250 from other F1 teams for engine leases.

Toto Wolff said at the start of 2014 that Mercedes would not have continued in F1 had these engine/power

plants not been allowed. They are not in F1 for the sport in anyway, just using it for free R&D.

 

In the F1 press meeting during the USA GP he also said that running a 3rd car in F1 would cost 20-30 million,

so you can see just how much they really cost. Yet the power plant cost to other teams is between 50-60 million.

This has killed the smaller teams, and his basic comment was that you should get out if you cannot afford this.

 

It was also pointed out that a F2 car could lap the same circuits between 7-10 seconds slower than an F1 car

and a whole season cost only around 4 million Euros, yet Mercedes is now spending well over 100 times that

much to get that small advantage. In all that shows just how wrong these rules are in F1 now.

 

Not only this, but the circuit promoters are also furious at the lack of sound from these cars, and have told

Bernie Ecclestone so.  Ecclestone also said that 14 cars on the grid would be acceptable, what a joke.

 

Yes Formula 1 has seen many tens of teams come and go over its history, but these regulations have taken

it to a totally different plane and one that is not in any way good for it.

 

These are just my personal feelings.

Edited by f1angry, 12 November 2014 - 01:19.

[HPT]

There are many things wrong with F1 at the moment but Meecedes isn't one of them. The engine rules were pushed forward by the FIA and agreed by all teams.

So what if a GP2 car can lap 7-10 sec at a fraction of the cost? It is the last second or even tenth that cost the most money in F1. The rules are the same for everybody. I don't see how this is a Mercedes problem at all.

[OO7]

Welcome to the forum.

 

You sound,.............well,.................err,.......................angry!

[FPV GTHO]

Where does 50-60 million a team for engines turn into 250million in revenue? There's only 3 customers, that's 150-180m from your own figures and I don't even know what currency you're using. The last figures I saw were somewhere around 30-40m for engines per year.

[Les]

Hi Christian, I would have hoped that the Spice Girl could have kept you occupied enough to forget about Mercedes. 

[teejay]

 

Mercedes Benz Killing F1

 

Will no body speak out, or are you all to blinkered to see this.

 

As a 50+ year follower of F1 I am furious that the F1 authorities have allowed Mercedes to do this to F1.

 

Mercedes have been clever enough to do an x-factor, where by their main car company is getting free R&D

to the tune of well over half a billion dollars for engine/power plant development for free. I may be out with those

figures, but 150 from F1 plus 100 from other sponsors plus 250 from other F1 teams for engine leases.

Toto Wolff said at the start of 2014 that Mercedes would not have continued in F1 had these engine/power

plants not been allowed. They are not in F1 for the sport in anyway, just using it for free R&D.

 

In the F1 press meeting during the USA GP he also said that running a 3rd car in F1 would cost 20-30 million,

so you can see just how much they really cost. Yet the power plant cost to other teams is between 50-60 million.

This has killed the smaller teams, and his basic comment was that you should get out if you cannot afford this.

 

It was also pointed out that a F2 car could lap the same circuits between 7-10 seconds slower than an F1 car

and a whole season cost only around 4 million Euros, yet Mercedes is now spending well over 100 times that

much to get that small advantage. In all that shows just how wrong these rules are in F1 now.

 

Not only this, but the circuit promoters are also furious at the lack of sound from these cars, and have told

Bernie Ecclestone so.  Ecclestone also said that 14 cars on the grid would be acceptable, what a joke.

 

Yes Formula 1 has seen many tens of teams come and go over its history, but these regulations have taken

it to a totally different plane and one that is not in any way good for it.

 

These are just my personal feelings.

 

 

Angry people often say irrational things.

 

Renault pushed for the V6, saying they would leave otherwise.

 

Blame them for igniting the war.

[Atreiu]

'XXX is killing F1' is the ultimate compliment, sort of.

But I dont think they are. This scenario is more like the rat theory from Skyfall but with teams, manufacturers, FIA, FOM et all in the trap.

Edited by Atreiu, 12 November 2014 - 01:58.

[f1angry]

There are many things wrong with F1 at the moment but Meecedes isn't one of them. The engine rules were pushed forward by the FIA and agreed by all teams.

So what if a GP2 car can lap 7-10 sec at a fraction of the cost? It is the last second or even tenth that cost the most money in F1. The rules are the same for everybody. I don't see how this is a Mercedes problem at all.

The engine idea was proposed by Renault and MB saw an open road as I said in my post, free R&D.  When the new teams came into F1 they were told that 50-60 million was the budget required, not the 120+ now required. Yes things move on, but engines going from 15-20 million a season to 50-60 is not fair for the smaller teams. That's their whole budget in one go.

 

The point of the GP2 cars is that you don't need to spend all this money on engines. Its not a level playing field with the budgets of the big teams. Yes it never has been but its out of control now 

[teejay]

Honda spent ~500 million in between 08 and 09 - so they set the standard for spending - blame them.

[f1angry]

Where does 50-60 million a team for engines turn into 250million in revenue? There's only 3 customers, that's 150-180m from your own figures and I don't even know what currency you're using. The last figures I saw were somewhere around 30-40m for engines per year.

Yes you are correct, my mistake only 3 other teams. But Force India boss Vijay Mallya let the engine lease cost out at the US GP and Toto Wolff did not dispute the cost as it was said in front of him.

[johnmhinds]

Confusing having these kinds of discussions about money when you've no idea if people are quoting amounts in dollars, pounds or euros.

[Peter0Scandlyn]

Well, if as you say MB saw an open road, then, that the other two didn't, just highlights how those two screwed up even more then we'd realised.

Certainly not MB's fault they've been hugely successful. 

[f1angry]

Confusing having these kinds of discussions about money when you've no idea if people are quoting amounts in dollars, pounds or euros.

Dollars

[f1angry]

Well, if as you say MB saw an open road, then, that the other two didn't, just highlights how those two screwed up even more then we'd realised.

Certainly not MB's fault they've been hugely successful. 

According to the FIA approx 47.5% of the profits are split between all of the teams.  It's not shared evenly, it's based on performance, heritage and the prestige. So no heritage or prestige means you get 5-10 million, MB gets in excess of 150, is that fair. No hope for any newcomer at all. Marussia, Caterham. Ferrari is another matter, only manufacturer-owned team that directly signs contracts with F1.

[DanardiF1]

According to the FIA approx 47.5% of the profits are split between all of the teams.  It's not shared evenly, it's based on performance, heritage and the prestige. So no heritage or prestige means you get 5-10 million, MB gets in excess of 150, is that fair. No hope for any newcomer at all. Marussia, Caterham. Ferrari is another matter, only manufacturer-owned team that directly signs contracts with F1.

 

The irony being that Mercedes doesn't get as much as Red Bull in 'prestige' payments, most of what they earn from F1 is just that... earned in the meritocratic system. Now I agree that the money should divided much more fairly, but Mercedes is 1. always going to have a big budget anyway as it's a works team for one of the world's top carmakers, and 2. they get nothing like the kind of money particularly Ferrari and Red Bull do from FOM and Bernie.

 

I'm sure I've seen figures that suggest that Red Bull will earn more than Mercedes from FOM this season despite finishing 2nd to them... that's the bigger problem. If you're going to have a meritocracy at least give the winner the biggest prize!?!

[warp]

F1 is wrong on many accounts but I don't see how this is different to what Ferrari, Red Bull and others have done.

[black magic]

exactly.

 

red bull is only pissed because they don't have the mercedes engine. I don't recall them prepared to givve away any of their secrets on how to maximise the double diffuser.

 

conveniently also ignores analysis that perceives mercedes advantage also in their chasis and suspension given the visibly better performance through corners requiring those assests as per andersons recent analysis from usa.

 

I would certainly not bemoan the dumping of these engines but don't for one moment believ horner speaks with anything but self interest.

 

these teams have all supposedly bitched and moaned about costs of testing and agreed to effectively its cessation. the problem becomes when one team gets a jump then catching up becomes very very difficult. plague on all their self interested houses

[Watkins74]

Congratulations to Mercedes on building a better mousetrap. 

 

One team dominates with a controlled rule book. Yet so many think the racing will be better with no rule book. 

[917k]

...says another disgruntled Ferrari / Red Bull / Mclaren [insert favorite team here] fan............

[KingTiger]

Mercedes are the only top team that is being reasonable at this point. Red Bull and Ferrari are doing their best to kill off any small team that they can. Mercedes' engines are also cheaper than Renault IIRC. 

[gowebber]

BS. Mercedes are only leading because other teams like Ferrari and esp Red Bull are not allowed to use more powerful engines due to this engine freeze monopoly that Mercedes are now enjoying. At least when RBR were dominating other teams had the chance to develop thier chassis and try and level the playing field which they did including copying RBR's ideas.

Edited by gowebber, 12 November 2014 - 06:12.

[OO7]

BS. Mercedes are only leading because other teams like Ferrari and esp Red Bull are not allowed to use more powerful engines due to this engine freeze monopoly that Mercedes are now enjoying. At least when RBR were dominating other teams had the chance to develop thier chassis and try and level the playing field which they did including copying RBR's ideas.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

 

Mercedes Benz Killing F1

 

...

 

If you believe the Red Bull/Ferrari spin Yes.

 

I think people are forgetting that just because Mercedes have dominated this year that it will be like this until the next engine swap (2020?)

 

Of course RB wants the V8 to return so they can dominate again.... :/

 

As for free R&D I don't quite buy that, but I am sure it does help, but no more than what Ferrari and Renault get...

 

The bottom line is that Mercedes spent more time developing this V6 Hybrid than any other team, its NOT there fault...

 

The advantage that Red Bull had was not catch-up-able due to the restrictions, this is just normal F1 in my opinion!

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 12 November 2014 - 06:54.

[Timstr11]

 

Mercedes Benz Killing F1

 

Will no body speak out, or are you all to blinkered to see this.

 

 

 

There are dozens of threads where Mercedes is being demonized for having done the best job. Are you too blinkered to see this?

 

Anyway, Killing F1? Quite the contrary....Mercedes is saving the sport!

 

-Williams to the fore! The iconic F1 team gets a chance to redeem itself by earning some good WCC income after a long dismal period.

-Force India gets a chance to occasionally hold itself up quite well against 'giants' like McLaren and Ferrari. Again, a good haul of points will earn them some very needed income.

-Next year, Lotus will get a new lease of life, after having been on the brink of collapse, thanks to the Mercedes PU.

 

I feel no pity for the richest teams, Redbull and Ferrari. With their money and power they will find a way back to the top.

 

But for now, I'm enjoying the upset.

[MikeMM]

I can tollerate Mercedes dominance for 1 year but with each passing season everyone(exept Mercedes fans) will become more and more frustrated with it.

[wj_gibson]

Mercedes Benz Killing F1

Will no body speak out, or are you all to blinkered to see this.

As a 50+ year follower of F1 I am furious that the F1 authorities have allowed Mercedes to do this to F1.

Mercedes have been clever enough to do an x-factor, where by their main car company is getting free R&D
to the tune of well over half a billion dollars for engine/power plant development for free. I may be out with those
figures, but 150 from F1 plus 100 from other sponsors plus 250 from other F1 teams for engine leases.
Toto Wolff said at the start of 2014 that Mercedes would not have continued in F1 had these engine/power
plants not been allowed. They are not in F1 for the sport in anyway, just using it for free R&D.

In the F1 press meeting during the USA GP he also said that running a 3rd car in F1 would cost 20-30 million,
so you can see just how much they really cost. Yet the power plant cost to other teams is between 50-60 million.
This has killed the smaller teams, and his basic comment was that you should get out if you cannot afford this.

It was also pointed out that a F2 car could lap the same circuits between 7-10 seconds slower than an F1 car
and a whole season cost only around 4 million Euros, yet Mercedes is now spending well over 100 times that
much to get that small advantage. In all that shows just how wrong these rules are in F1 now.

Not only this, but the circuit promoters are also furious at the lack of sound from these cars, and have told
Bernie Ecclestone so. Ecclestone also said that 14 cars on the grid would be acceptable, what a joke.

Yes Formula 1 has seen many tens of teams come and go over its history, but these regulations have taken
it to a totally different plane and one that is not in any way good for it.

These are just my personal feelings.

Red Bull Racing isn't running itself, Christian.

[sabjit]

Mclaren dominated in the late '80's, the sport lived on. Williams dominated in the early '90's, the sport lived on. Ferrari dominated in the mid 000's, the sport lived on. Red Bull dominated the last 4 years, the sport lived on.

 

Mercedes have dominated for one year so far, but apparently that is apocalyptic.

[Retrofly]

Success ballest.

[MikeMM]

Mclaren dominated in the late '80's, the sport lived on. Williams dominated in the early '90's, the sport lived on. Ferrari dominated in the mid 000's, the sport lived on. Red Bull dominated the last 4 years, the sport lived on.

 

Mercedes have dominated for one year so far, but apparently that is apocalyptic.

In other years rivals could develop their engines now its heavily restricted.

[sabjit]

In other years rivals could develop their engines now its heavily restricted.

 

Some people have pointed out that the restrictions aren't that restrictive. You can change a fair bit of the engine.

[learningtobelost]

Half a billion dollars of free R&D... I'm assuming that the OP thinks that the engine developed itself, the staff worked for free, the factory and machinery were donated, all of the external contractors worked pro-bono, materials were mined and refined by Mercedes themselves. Presumably they also generate their own electricity and drill for gas / oil, Toto probably made all of the sandwiches for everyone as well, he seems nice like that.

I am pretty confident that Mercedes will have made a loss on their 2014 campaign, all apparently so they can develop a power unit with bugger all relevance to their commercial operations. 

 

Before the inevitable happens and this thread gets closed I'd like to know where the figure of Mercedes getting $150m from CVC came from? I was under the impression that it was RB / Ferrari and Mclaren that were getting additional funds due to their heritage? 

Edited by learningtobelost, 12 November 2014 - 08:35.

[Newbrray]

BS. Mercedes are only leading because other teams like Ferrari and esp Red Bull are not allowed to use more powerful engines due to this engine freeze monopoly that Mercedes are now enjoying. At least when RBR were dominating other teams had the chance to develop thier chassis and try and level the playing field which they did including copying RBR's ideas.

 

But the other teams (Renault & Ferrari) championed this move. Not sure what your point is here

 

Besides you do know the engines are not frozen and  they can develop their engines (apparently over 95%) its just that they basically want in-season development for introducing updates. which was rule suggested and put forward  by these same things that you feel are now being victimised. 

 

You can't lay down the law and then turn around and break it because someone else abides by it so diligently that it made him a much better citizen than you

[ClubmanGT]

We had four years of off-throttle exhaust bullshit and front-wings that dragged along the ground, but when someone who isn't Red Bull starts to dominate, F1 is dying etc. 

 

Seriously you can have all the teams in the world you want, if the show is boring then people stop watching - where is the audience for your sponsors then?

 

I agree that radical cost cutting is needed and I would love to see a return to 1990s level of aero with simpler engines, but that's not going to happen until someone tells Merc/RBR/Fiat that they could be only putting in $160m and getting the same amount of money back they do now. 

[bonjon1979a]

Mercedes Benz Killing F1

Will no body speak out, or are you all to blinkered to see this.

As a 50+ year follower of F1 I am furious that the F1 authorities have allowed Mercedes to do this to F1.

Mercedes have been clever enough to do an x-factor, where by their main car company is getting free R&D
to the tune of well over half a billion dollars for engine/power plant development for free. I may be out with those
figures, but 150 from F1 plus 100 from other sponsors plus 250 from other F1 teams for engine leases.
Toto Wolff said at the start of 2014 that Mercedes would not have continued in F1 had these engine/power
plants not been allowed. They are not in F1 for the sport in anyway, just using it for free R&D.

In the F1 press meeting during the USA GP he also said that running a 3rd car in F1 would cost 20-30 million,
so you can see just how much they really cost. Yet the power plant cost to other teams is between 50-60 million.
This has killed the smaller teams, and his basic comment was that you should get out if you cannot afford this.

It was also pointed out that a F2 car could lap the same circuits between 7-10 seconds slower than an F1 car
and a whole season cost only around 4 million Euros, yet Mercedes is now spending well over 100 times that
much to get that small advantage. In all that shows just how wrong these rules are in F1 now.

Not only this, but the circuit promoters are also furious at the lack of sound from these cars, and have told
Bernie Ecclestone so. Ecclestone also said that 14 cars on the grid would be acceptable, what a joke.

Yes Formula 1 has seen many tens of teams come and go over its history, but these regulations have taken
it to a totally different plane and one that is not in any way good for it.

These are just my personal feelings.

I forget. Only ferrari are allowed to outspend everyone! Ridiculous thread.

[DrivenF1]

Some people have pointed out that the restrictions aren't that restrictive. You can change a fair bit of the engine.

 

BBC article quoted 92% so...it's not like they can't change anything.

 

As mentioned above it's more that they want to make changes in-season so they have a greater chance to chase Mercedes and implement similar upgrades. They know that if there are yearly updates Mercedes might turn-up with another game changer which they can't copy.

 

Any way I think the racing this year has been the best well potentially ever. There's been few really boring races and many great ones. Compare that to last year which was really dire, back to 2004 levels of boredom (and I was a Schumacher fan!)

Edited by Cult, 12 November 2014 - 08:57.

[Jamiednm]

Hmmm, maybe if Mercedes did a mediocre job like Renault and Ferrari did, F1 would be in fine health, cars trundling around 1-2 seconds off what they should be truly capable of under these regs.

[Sash1]

No it is the FIA's fault and other manufacturers have been sleeping when they designed the new rulesets. Mercedes just made clever use of the available rules like they should.

It is not a situation F1 should be in, but that is not Mercedes' fault.

[MJ999]

If Mercedes has broken the rules then they should be punished. However it seems to me they havent and are merely complying with the rules which were made with conset of Ferrari and Renault which i find quite ironic. They simply did a stellar job.

Edited by MJ999, 12 November 2014 - 09:14.

[Fatgadget]

Yeah..Mercedes are the devil incarnate! Shouldnt have built such a mega car that frankly left their rivals eating cake!.....Ummmm were they working from a different set of rules and regulations I wonder?

[lbennie]

red bull is only pissed because they don't have the mercedes engine. I don't recall them prepared to givve away any of their secrets on how to maximise the double diffuser.

 

 

 

So? it wasn't frozen though, so if the other teams figured it out they could have.

[Force Ten]

Well, they may be killing it today, but they are not in any way worse than Ferrari was in 2002 and 2004. There the race result was a foregone conclusion before the weekend started.

[Mat13]

Of course Mercedes aren't in it for the sport, only the 'free' R and D. Which is why they pay millions for Rosberg and Hamilton, instead of having pay drivers.

[Nemo1965]

F1 Angry, I advise you to read this, rather old article: Mercedes' Advantage in 2014: A Simple Explanation of Revolutionary F1 Engine. It explains, in my eyes very convincingly, why Mercedes have such an advantage. Also - between the lines - you can see it had more to do with a certain technical choice than just pumping money into the development.

 

Furthermore, I recently saw a list of all the parts that are not included in the engine-freeze. In my estimation, Renault and Ferrari could overhaul the placement of the turbo's (which, as the above posted article explains), is the 'trick' of the Mercedes F1 car. But that of course would compromise the (less efficient) choice they already have made. I think that Christian Horner knows this as well, and therefore, until further notice I can't take his complaint very seriously.

 

I am curious what you think about the article, regards,

 

Nemo.

[SGWilko]

Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.

[bonjon1979a]

We can all see what's going on. Ferrari can't win so they're going back to their tried and tested method of trying to change the rules so they can win. It's absolutely classic. That's all there is to it. Renault also don't want open ended development of engines either.

[Fatgadget]

So? it wasn't frozen though, so if the other teams figured it out they could have.

But who was it that agreed on the freezing of these PUs beforehand?

[Disgrace]

Mercedes are the only top team that is being reasonable at this point. Red Bull and Ferrari are doing their best to kill off any small team that they can. Mercedes' engines are also cheaper than Renault IIRC. 

 

Whilst blaming F1's problems exclusively on Mercedes is a ridiculous premise for an argument, all of the top teams are still part of the problem. They all have particular arrangements with Bernie if reports are to be believed, as well as their own self-interests. So while Red Bull and Ferrari (and not Mercedes) will be permitted to field three cars, Mercedes won't budge on engines. They're all financial elites, so none of them are willing to do something about costs in general.

[DampMongoose]

I think the only thing 'killing' smaller teams is their lack of budgetary control. 

[Jon83]

You're clearly angry, but you can't just blame Mercedes for the problems in the sport.

[LORDBYRON]

 

Mercedes Benz Killing F1

 

Will no body speak out, or are you all to blinkered to see this.

 

As a 50+ year follower of F1 I am furious that the F1 authorities have allowed Mercedes to do this to F1.

 

Mercedes have been clever enough to do an x-factor, where by their main car company is getting free R&D

to the tune of well over half a billion dollars for engine/power plant development for free. I may be out with those

figures, but 150 from F1 plus 100 from other sponsors plus 250 from other F1 teams for engine leases.

Toto Wolff said at the start of 2014 that Mercedes would not have continued in F1 had these engine/power

plants not been allowed. They are not in F1 for the sport in anyway, just using it for free R&D.

 

In the F1 press meeting during the USA GP he also said that running a 3rd car in F1 would cost 20-30 million,

so you can see just how much they really cost. Yet the power plant cost to other teams is between 50-60 million.

This has killed the smaller teams, and his basic comment was that you should get out if you cannot afford this.

 

It was also pointed out that a F2 car could lap the same circuits between 7-10 seconds slower than an F1 car

and a whole season cost only around 4 million Euros, yet Mercedes is now spending well over 100 times that

much to get that small advantage. In all that shows just how wrong these rules are in F1 now.

 

Not only this, but the circuit promoters are also furious at the lack of sound from these cars, and have told

Bernie Ecclestone so.  Ecclestone also said that 14 cars on the grid would be acceptable, what a joke.

 

Yes Formula 1 has seen many tens of teams come and go over its history, but these regulations have taken

it to a totally different plane and one that is not in any way good for it.

 

These are just my personal feelings.

 

 

Nothing new here had the same kind of topics when red bull were at the top of the sport 

 

Pointless topic or you have a grudge with the merc team 

 

If you were a 50+ year fan you would know its just a phase and there time will pass