61 replies to this topic

[LeMans86]

At the moment teams are comletely free in how and what they pay their drivers. With every now and then some mind-blowing deals being signed. The latest: Alonso will apparently be signed by McLaren for an astromical number. On the other side you have (young) drivers that (compared to that) almost drive for free, also in top teams (Magnussen reportedly 'only' earns 500k) and drivers like Button realising how privileged they are and saying "I don't care about the big money, I do want to get paid cause I bring value, but I'm not here to fill my bank account with ridiculous amounts".

I'm strongly in favour of certain rules and limits on drivers salary. For example drivers only being allowed to be paid a base salary of up to 5mil/year with the rest of their salary being performance related. Preferably, these performance clauses have to be exactly the same for teammates and subjected to a maximum.
This because experienced drivers (should) of course bring a certain amount of knowledge and value with them compared to the young drivers. This value can then be reflected in their base salary. However, their performance is the thing really brings in the money for the teams. And I can't find a justification for one driver being paid 30mil and the other 1mil in one team, regardless of their (relative) performance.

For how these performance pays should work are several options, and could simply be left to the teams themselves to figure out. They could for example simply say "we have 20mil to spend on you guys, so that's 1mil for every race which will be divided between the two of you based on your finishing position in that race". Or they could make it a little bit more complicated looking at the total performance: if one guy has an easy ride to 4th while the other faces technical problems and 12th was the absolute maximum achievable for him, they both get both get 500k because they both delivered the maximum result they could. Or you made a stupid mistake which cost us valuable points, so 0 for you and your race wasn't that great either but at least you brought home some points, so here's 200k.

I believe Red Bull already works with a relatively low base salary which can become a really nice sum with race wins etc.

Edited by LeMans86, 12 November 2014 - 13:25.

[Kraken]

When there are footballers, golfers, tennis players, basketball players and american footballers all earning more (sometimes double) what the highest paid F1 stars get I would argue that they are not overpaid at all.

[MikeMM]

The answer is no.

[Henrik B]

Athletes can never be paid too much. It's self-regulating.

 

They are the ones producing actual value for sports fans, so it's only fair they get as big a share of the revenue as possible. Football without players is incredibly dull to watch.

 

Motorsport is a bit of a special case and a slight exception to the general rule above as the car is so important, but only slight. Fire everyone and insert GP3 drivers and viewer numbers would plummet.

[pdac]

The answer is no.

 

This (well sort of). If restrictions are imposed on the pay levels of anybody and everybody then drivers should be included.

[EthanM]

Why? I don't understand. If Honda/McLaren feel Alonso is worth elevety billion per season to them more power to them, that's free market economy.

[rhukkas]

You've got it the wrong way around bud, I think the question should be

 

Should there be a limit to how much drivers PAY teams for a seat?

[LeMans86]

When there are footballers, golfers, tennis players, basketball players and american footballers all earning more (sometimes double) what the highest paid F1 stars get I would argue that they are not overpaid at all.

Golfers and tennis players are examples of athletes that are paid on performance levels. If Federer plays a bad tournament or season, his income will be far less than when he performs. He doesn't get the big bucks for only showing up.

Edited by LeMans86, 12 November 2014 - 14:08.

[EthanM]

Golfers and tennis players are examples of athletes that are paid on performance levels. If Federer plays a bad tournament or season, his income will be far less than when he performs.

 

drivers don't just drive. Ask any McLaren driver what demands the team places on their time for sponsor activities. Effectively the drivers aside from driving they "rent out" their image to sponsors. It's the equivalent of a footballer signing a deal with Nike which depends on how many goals he scores per season. Not how it works.

[LeMans86]

Why? I don't understand. If Honda/McLaren feel Alonso is worth elevety billion per season to them more power to them, that's free market economy.

If they ánd Alonso feel he is worth that much, why having a problem with only getting that amount of money after actually doing what you're supposed to do in the first place for that money? Unless a driver is afraid he won't deliver, he shouldn't have a problem with it. For teams it's also nicer to only having to pay if they get what they are supposed to get.

[EthanM]

If they ánd Alonso feel he is worth that much, why having a problem with only getting that amount of money after actually doing what you're supposed to do in the first place for that money? Unless a driver is afraid he won't deliver, he shouldn't have a problem with it. For teams it's also nicer to only having to pay if they get what they are supposed to get.

 

And Alonso will go around and take his face off the Santander billboards if his McLaren car fails? Will he be replaced by Bob the builder down the road in the next Honda ad if his engine goes boom at any give race? Try and understand drivers aren't just paid to drive

[Nathan]

No. 

 

Simply put, we are not the ones that have to justify it, understand it, accept it, what have you.  I don't know how it can be policed, as a team pay a guy $5 million to race, another $25 million can come from the sponsors via endorsements, merchandising etc..  You are not just buying performance from a driver, performance can be hard to quantify, and performance is not just determined by the driver.

Why should Alonso's pay cheque suffer because of poor reliability or car performance?

 

F1 is sure getting socialist lately.  Occupy F1!!

Edited by Nathan, 12 November 2014 - 14:17.

[LeMans86]

drivers don't just drive. Ask any McLaren driver what demands the team places on their time for sponsor activities. Effectively the drivers aside from driving they "rent out" their image to sponsors. It's the equivalent of a footballer signing a deal with Nike which depends on how many goals he scores per season. Not how it works.

Still, it does already work at Red Bull on a certain level. They get quite a modest base salary for top team F1 terms, and if they perform it really gets interesting for them in terms of pay.

[ViMaMo]

How would you then reward talent ? Talent and salary is regulated naturally in the market. Nobody is forcing Mclaren to hire Alonso. You might say Honda is but then Alonso is not holding any cards except his talent and past performance that has impressed Honda or Mclaren.

Edited by ViMaMo, 12 November 2014 - 14:25.

[EthanM]

Still, it does already work at Red Bull on a certain level. They get quite a modest base salary for top team F1 terms, and if they perform it really gets interesting for them in terms of pay.

 

yes but Red Bull don't employ "established" drivers. The last ones they did (Coulthard/Webber) were on decent retainers. Vettel started on a modest retainer with major bonuses when he moved up from STR and leaves with a 20mil retainer (reportedly). So even Red Bull recognizes the commercial value aside from the performance of a four time world champion.

[pdac]

A few principles of a capitalist system:

 

1. If I am friends with someone who has money and you are not, I will be paid more than you

2. Other than 1, if  my employer likes me more than you, I will be paid more than you

3. Other than 1 and 2, if I bring more value to an employer than you do, I will be paid more than you

[Kraken]

Golfers and tennis players are examples of athletes that are paid on performance levels. If Federer plays a bad tournament or season, his income will be far less than when he performs. He doesn't get the big bucks for only showing up.

And what about the footballers etc?

 

Besides if the F1 drivers were paid the money that the points they score generate the teams would be out of business very quickly. Not to mention that any contract worth its salt is going to have performance clauses in it so a driver who just showed up and didn't perform would be out of the door.

 

In F1 it's not as simple as tennis and golf. If a tennis player doesn't get past the 2nd round of any tournament then it's obvious were the problem is. If a driver is getting knocked out in Q2 and finishing 11th in races with a car that is 30 points of downforce down on the top cars and with 100hp less power how would  you rate his performance?

 

To Joe Public it might look like a driver near the back isn't worth his salary and should be sacked. The teams know exactly what their cars are capable of and the driver is rated against that.

[SenorSjon]

If they ánd Alonso feel he is worth that much, why having a problem with only getting that amount of money after actually doing what you're supposed to do in the first place for that money? Unless a driver is afraid he won't deliver, he shouldn't have a problem with it. For teams it's also nicer to only having to pay if they get what they are supposed to get.

 

Ask Kimi about Lotus and payments on points basis. 

 

 

Still, it does already work at Red Bull on a certain level. They get quite a modest base salary for top team F1 terms, and if they perform it really gets interesting for them in terms of pay.

 

Because most RB/TR drivers wouldn't stand a chance to shine because they can't compete with sugardaddies and countries. 

 

We need less rules in F1, not even more!

[ThadGreen]

No, how would you like your salary to be limited?

[sabjit]

Drivers risk their lives, as we saw in Japan. They deserve the pay they get (when they get paid that is).

 

I would like to see footballers reduced to the minimum wage. Then we can start talking on Salary limits in F1.

[emmanuelrubi]

No.

[Collective]

No. It's the team's decision to spend their budget as they see fit, including whatever they want to pay for a driver.

[Lazy]

How would you then reward talent ? Talent and salary is regulated naturally in the market. Nobody is forcing Mclaren to hire Alonso. You might say Honda is but then Alonso is not holding any cards except his talent and past performance that has impressed Honda or Mclaren.

Why should somebody get paid for having talent? Talent is it's own reward. It's absurd that people are paid millions for doing what they would do for free whilst the rest get paid peanuts for actually working.

I would pay them for race results, 1 million for win, 10 thou for last.

[NoSanityClause]

Why should somebody get paid for having talent? Talent is it's own reward. It's absurd that people are paid millions for doing what they would do for free whilst the rest get paid peanuts for actually working.

I would pay them for race results, 1 million for win, 10 thou for last.

Capitalism is not for you, neither is for the OP

[HeadFirst]

No, and furthermore if some sort of spending cap is ever implemented, salaries of driver and other team personnel should be exempt.

[bourbon]

Drivers risk their lives, as we saw in Japan. They deserve the pay they get (when they get paid that is).

 

I would like to see footballers reduced to the minimum wage. Then we can start talking on Salary limits in F1.

 

Agree, the risk is greater than many sports, so that has to be taken into consideration.  NFL, Hockey - the players also risk catastrophic injury, so like sports generally pay more.  How else to cover the best long term medical recovery and caring for your family once you are injured?  Insurance only goes so far.  There are some risky sports where there is less pay, but they are less popular and garner less income.

 

So no, there should be no limits on earnings and in fact, there should be a minimum earnings requirement.  "Pay drivers" fees would include it as a deductible. 

 

Why should somebody get paid for having talent? Talent is it's own reward. It's absurd that people are paid millions for doing what they would do for free whilst the rest get paid peanuts for actually working.

I would pay them for race results, 1 million for win, 10 thou for last.

 

Isn't talent what we all get paid for?  i.e., the best baker generally makes more than the worst baker, but both are paid for their talent of baking.  The rarer your talent, the more you get paid because of the exclusivity factor.  If there were millions of Senna's out there, then the competitive pay scale would be very low (comparably - it would still have to cover risks).

Edited by bourbon, 12 November 2014 - 17:26.

[krumpli12]

Golfers and tennis players are examples of athletes that are paid on performance levels. If Federer plays a bad tournament or season, his income will be far less than when he performs. He doesn't get the big bucks for only showing up.

For every dollar Federer earns on court he gets three dollars in sponsorship revenues. The real big money doesn't come from tournament earnings either in tennis. For example during the terrible 2011 season Fed still brought home 60 million at the end of the day. And let me tell you, he didn't get it for the (non-existent) tournament victories.

Edited by krumpli12, 12 November 2014 - 17:44.

[Lazy]

Agree, the risk is greater than many sports, so that has to be taken into consideration.  NFL, Hockey - the players also risk catastrophic injury, so like sports generally pay more.  How else to cover the best long term medical recovery and caring for your family once you are injured?  Insurance only goes so far.  There are some risky sports where there is less pay, but they are less popular and garner less income.

 

So no, there should be no limits on earnings and in fact, there should be a minimum earnings requirement.  "Pay drivers" fees would include it as a deductible. 

 

 

Isn't talent what we all get paid for?  i.e., the best baker generally makes more than the worst baker, but both are paid for their talent of baking.  The rarer your talent, the more you get paid because of the exclusivity factor.  If there were millions of Senna's out there, then the competitive pay scale would be very low (comparably - it would still have to cover risks).

Can you imagine how much fun it is driving an F1 car? Even better being the best and winning, you get all that and they want the rest of us to chip in and give them millions as well?

[bourbon]

Can you imagine how much fun it is driving an F1 car? Even better being the best and winning, you get all that and they want the rest of us to chip in and give them millions as well?

 

  When I consider the extraordinary amount I "chipped in" last time I went to a GP, I have a hard time disagreeing.  

 

Driving F1 cars is fun, but a lot of people have fun jobs and still deserve pay.  Take bootleggers back in the day - they get the adrenaline rush of out gunning the police on a back road to deliver their booty.  The best of them beat the police and won the most lucrative runs.  Of course the risk of getting caught increased - but good stuff.  In the end, like F1 drivers, they provide a service that is of value to others and want paid for it - or no more deliveries.

[redreni]

The contracts are between the team and the driver. The FIA can't interfere. They can no more limit what teams spend on drivers than they can limit what they spend on anything else. In a perfect world I'd be in favour of a single, global limit on spending, but when some teams are wholly-owned subsidiaries of major, transnational corporations, unless the FIA is going to have unfettered, forensic access of these companies' accounts, it's not going to work. There is no point limiting spending on individual items like driver pay.

 

If teams want to waste their money, let them, that's what I say. You can win the WDC and WCC with any old drivers if your car is good enough. Equally you can lose the title even if you've got one or more of the best drivers in the world if your car isn't up to scratch. Mclaren keep designing chassis that generate too little downforce. They need aero talent, not a driver.

[MP422]

They deserve every penny IMO.

[Donkey]

At the moment teams are comletely free in how and what they pay their drivers. With every now and then some mind-blowing deals being signed. The latest: Alonso will apparently be signed by McLaren for an astromical number. On the other side you have (young) drivers that (compared to that) almost drive for free, also in top teams (Magnussen reportedly 'only' earns 500k) and drivers like Button realising how privileged they are and saying "I don't care about the big money, I do want to get paid cause I bring value, but I'm not here to fill my bank account with ridiculous amounts".

I'm strongly in favour of certain rules and limits on drivers salary. For example drivers only being allowed to be paid a base salary of up to 5mil/year with the rest of their salary being performance related. Preferably, these performance clauses have to be exactly the same for teammates and subjected to a maximum.
This because experienced drivers (should) of course bring a certain amount of knowledge and value with them compared to the young drivers. This value can then be reflected in their base salary. However, their performance is the thing really brings in the money for the teams. And I can't find a justification for one driver being paid 30mil and the other 1mil in one team, regardless of their (relative) performance.

For how these performance pays should work are several options, and could simply be left to the teams themselves to figure out. They could for example simply say "we have 20mil to spend on you guys, so that's 1mil for every race which will be divided between the two of you based on your finishing position in that race". Or they could make it a little bit more complicated looking at the total performance: if one guy has an easy ride to 4th while the other faces technical problems and 12th was the absolute maximum achievable for him, they both get both get 500k because they both delivered the maximum result they could. Or you made a stupid mistake which cost us valuable points, so 0 for you and your race wasn't that great either but at least you brought home some points, so here's 200k.

I believe Red Bull already works with a relatively low base salary which can become a really nice sum with race wins etc.

Red Bull salaries 2014

 

Vettel $31.7 million + performance bonuses

 

Ricciardo $1.1 million + performance bonuses

 

I guess winning the WDC four times in a row gives you some scope for negotiating your 'relatively low' base salary upwards a bit...

 

Ricciardo is almost certainly the best value driver per point this season.

[Paco]

Phone do people come up with this stuff and idea ... Drivers get paid what sponsors and teams are willing to pay. Any idea of controll like budget caps are ridiculous. Sooo easy hidden if it were ever controlled. Like a sponsor would ever open there books to the fia to see what a driver is paid. Worst idea ever.. It would lead to the entire grid being paid drivers.. And less money for teams as most would just pay the driver then sponsor a team...

Major eye roll.

A driver could them incorporate themselves and find the team as part of a deal to drive for them ... Yadda Yadda.

Also, more USA races and more EU ones and less middle eastern ones... Maybe 2 or even 3 china races... And even another South American race like Argentina..


All f1 needs is stop restricting stuff and make a cheap engine package like they had!!!

Edited by Paco, 12 November 2014 - 19:07.

[Fastcake]

So no, there should be no limits on earnings and in fact, there should be a minimum earnings requirement.  "Pay drivers" fees would include it as a deductible. 

 

Even the pay drivers in the poorest teams are getting back six figures as a salary. Rest assured, the driver's nests are well and truly feathered.

[Szoelloe]

No

[Nonesuch]

I can't find a justification for one driver being paid 30mil and the other 1mil in one team, regardless of their (relative) performance.

 

Why not? Which driver do you think other teams might have wanted to sign, Schumacher or Barrichello, Alonso or Fisichella, Hamilton or Kovalainen, Vettel or Webber?

 

The teams engage in a spending war of sorts, and the greater the number of teams interested in a driver the higher his salary will be. If Alonso is being paid X million by Ferrari it usually means nobody was willing to offer him more.

 

Of course other things than the money will also matter to the driver, such as the performance of the team, but there is also a reason these guys live in Monaco and Switzerland, rather than the countries whose flags they (mis)use.

Edited by Nonesuch, 12 November 2014 - 20:18.

[LeMans86]

Why not? Which driver do you think other teams might have wanted to sign, Schumacher or Barrichello, Alonso or Fisichella, Hamilton or Kovalainen, Vettel or Webber?
 
The teams engage in a spending war of sorts, and the greater the number of teams interested in a driver the higher his salary will be. If Alonso is being paid X million by Ferrari it usually means nobody was willing to offer him more.
 
Of course other things than the money will also matter to the driver, such as the performance of the team, but there is also a reason these guys live in Monaco and Switzerland, rather than the countries whose flags they (mis)use.

I believe McLaren is the only team this year that is interested in Alonso (which Alonso would want to drive for). And still they can't get him cheap.

In sports, I'm simply pro the athletes being paid for what they actually achieve, instead of being paid a sum of money regardless of what they achieve in a year.

[baddog]

All regardless, in F1 it serves no purpose. This is not like rugby or football where such things have been (wrongly) applied in the past.. In F1 driver salaries are only a minor part of the entrants performance costs, in those other sports they are pretty much all of those costs, meaning a cap can be a way to equalise things, and teams often pay a lot of money to keep players on their books and off opposing teams. It makes no sense at all to limit them in F1 as none of this applies.

 

The OP doesnt offer any actual argument in favour of these limits.

[rhukkas]

Why should somebody get paid for having talent? Talent is it's own reward. It's absurd that people are paid millions for doing what they would do for free whilst the rest get paid peanuts for actually working.

I would pay them for race results, 1 million for win, 10 thou for last.

 

 

You can't use that model for payment. I won't explain why because I won't lower myself to that level..

[rhukkas]

I believe McLaren is the only team this year that is interested in Alonso (which Alonso would want to drive for). And still they can't get him cheap.

In sports, I'm simply pro the athletes being paid for what they actually achieve, instead of being paid a sum of money regardless of what they achieve in a year.

 

How do you measure achievement in F1? Do you actually know anything about F1?

[Spillage]

No, but teams should be paid enough not to have to take on pay drivers.

[Nonesuch]

I believe McLaren is the only team this year that is interested in Alonso (which Alonso would want to drive for). And still they can't get him cheap.

 

If McLaren wants to hire Alonso, they'll need to make him an offer that is better than the alternatives.

 

Offers by other teams can be one such alternative, but for people like Alonso (who have been successful during their career) the alternatives also include not doing anything and enjoying his enormous fortune, as well as racing in other categories - or as Alonso said in 2013: 'there are more fun cars to drive'.

 

Alonso has options, and he can make demands.

 

I suppose the main point is that I'm sure these are all responsible adults who can figure out the best way to work together without some regulation from the FIA imposing a standard model on their contract.

 

 

[redreni]

I believe McLaren is the only team this year that is interested in Alonso (which Alonso would want to drive for). And still they can't get him cheap.

In sports, I'm simply pro the athletes being paid for what they actually achieve, instead of being paid a sum of money regardless of what they achieve in a year.

 

Yeah, the problem with performance pay is a driver like Button, if he only got paid when he got results, is he would never have become World Champion in 2009 because he'd have starved to death as a result of barely being paid between 2005 and 2008. It's just incredibly hard, at the time the contracts are negotiated, to specify how many points the driver can be expected to score.

 

Look at it from the driver's point of view. Take Alonso as an example. He's running out of good years in his career, he doesn't think he's going to get a winning car at Ferrari and he's looking to move somewhere where he will be able to win races and fight for the title. Lets say he's negotiating a two year deal with Mclaren. If Mclaren say "but if you don't win races, we don't want to pay you - this is a deal-breaker for us" Alonso is entitled to wonder why they're so concerned about saving money in the event they don't produce a car that can win. If they don't think they're going to win, do I want to go there at all, he might ask.

 

I expect most drivers would be more willing to accept a deal where the more races they win, the less they're paid, than the other way around.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

If the teams want to spend so much money on drivers they can do. The driver can ask for whatever salary they want, and the team will either say 'yay' or 'nay'. Simple as that really for me.

[loki]

Why should somebody get paid for having talent? Talent is it's own reward. It's absurd that people are paid millions for doing what they would do for free whilst the rest get paid peanuts for actually working.

I would pay them for race results, 1 million for win, 10 thou for last.

Sounds like you made a bad career choice, my sympathies.  However, it's not up to you or me or anyone else other than the parties involved what a particular person is worth.  Think of it this way, how about if someone advocated capping your salary?  How would you feel about that?

[Lennat]

Absolutely not. The big temas can afford it, and the smaller teams will go for pay drivers or cheap drivers anyway.

[bourbon]

If McLaren wants to hire Alonso, they'll need to make him an offer that is better than the alternatives.

 

Offers by other teams can be one such alternative, but for people like Alonso (who have been successful during their career) the alternatives also include not doing anything and enjoying his enormous fortune, as well as racing in other categories - or as Alonso said in 2013: 'there are more fun cars to drive'.

 

Alonso has options, and he can make demands.

 

I suppose the main point is that I'm sure these are all responsible adults who can figure out the best way to work together without some regulation from the FIA imposing a standard model on their contract.

 

Right.  Lump together what a driver is willing to take with the scarcity of good drivers with experience, and your pool shrinks drastically.  That small pool of 5-7 drivers earns more because they are more sought after.  The model is top team - top driver.  I think the mold will hold because it is how fan bases are established and expectations for subsequent seasons are fed.  But all of that means paying the top drivers for their part in the continuation of F1's popularity.  Since junior drivers are next in line for this, they too have to be paid while they wait their turn.

 

Red Bull broke that mold this season - but I believe that to be an anomoly because if it becomes the norm, there is no incentive for exceling in the sport and people will take their driving talents elsewhere.  I can't see that happening, so I would say drivers can expect the millions to keep pouring into their pockets.

[F1ultimate]

The salary landscape in F1 is out of touch with the world.

 

Tell me of another sport where one contestant gets €20m in salary while another contestant pays the exact sum just to get to participate.

[Lotus53B]

No F1 driver appears in the Forbes "Highest Paid Sportperson" top ten...

Lewis Hamilton is the first entry in the top 100 at #19, with an income of  $32M - 29/3 salary to endorsement

 

Fred is #21, at £31M - 29/2

 

You then have to go to #83 to find the FIA F1 World Champion Sebastian Vettel at $21M - 19/2

 

I don't think that their pay is excessive when you consider that.

 

http://www.forbes.co...st/#tab:overall

[Clatter]

Golfers and tennis players are examples of athletes that are paid on performance levels. If Federer plays a bad tournament or season, his income will be far less than when he performs. He doesn't get the big bucks for only showing up.

But in general they are playing for themselves and not a team. They don't get a salary.

 

I think the amounts paid to players in many sports is absolutely ridiculous, but I don't believe the sport itself can control that. The problem I see is it's ultimately the fan who has to pay as the ticket price reflects the ridiculous salaries.

Edited by Clatter, 13 November 2014 - 12:27.