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Mercedes 2015 engine "A second a lap faster", Honda engine at similar level to 2014 Merc engine


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#1 MatParker116

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 01:12

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/30060635

 

 

 

 

Insiders say the new Honda engine is already close to producing a similar level of performance to the Mercedes turbo hybrid V6 which has dominated Formula 1 this season.

But the Japanese company may need to find considerably more performance ahead of the new season if it is to be competitive, as Mercedes are said to have made significant steps forward with their power unit for 2015.

Even under rules restricting development, sources say Mercedes have improved their engine enough to translate into a performance gain of about a second a lap for next season.

 

For the sake of the sport next year I hope Honda can find another second. If there engine is that good and they can find another second Alonso should take it to the Merc's next year.



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#2 chumma

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 01:14

A second? With engine freeze regs? I don't believe that...



#3 pingu666

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 01:38

is there a weight limit on the batteries? they might of found lighter/denser batteries and got performance that way...



#4 KingTiger

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 01:41

Like I said before, I don't expect Honda to have a good engine. In fact I'll be surprised if they're not dead last in performance. Though I guess that depends on Ferrari not being useless for once this decade. I have no doubts that the Renault and Mercedes engines will be clearly better than those two. 



#5 Peter0Scandlyn

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 02:47

A second? With engine freeze regs? I don't believe that...

Why not?

 

Two well known F1 commentators would disagree.

One believes that next years p/u's will be vastly different across the grid to this seasons, even working within the constraints imposed.

The other says 92% of this years effort can be significantly upgraded, again within the rules.

 

P/u's are built, just awaiting testing to begin.

These people are smarter then me, have made the statements on national television, so I don't see why not.  :well:



#6 f1RacingForever

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 03:01

It will take a miracle for other power units to come close to the Mercedes next year. It simply won't happen.

#7 HPT

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 03:45

A second? With engine freeze regs? I don't believe that...

 

Lots of people were saying it's impossible for Merc to have a significant hp advantage with the engine rules regarding fuel flow restrictions and whatnot. Look what happened. We're talking about possibly the most brilliant minds of the industry. Let's not pretend to even know what is and isn't possible (not directing this at you btw, just in general).



#8 Kalmake

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 03:54

is there a weight limit on the batteries? they might of found lighter/denser batteries and got performance that way...

20-25kg included in the total PU minimum of 145kg.



#9 Lemans

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 05:05

This sounds like a whole lot of speculation presenting itself as journalism.



#10 Huffer

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 05:05

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/30060635

 

 

For the sake of the sport next year I hope Honda can find another second. If there engine is that good and they can find another second Alonso should take it to the Merc's next year.

The problem is that the Honda PU is going to be stuck in the back of a McLaren - and let's be honest, their weakness hasn't been engine/PU related for the last couple of years. It's been chassis related, and I'm not confident that this is something that McLaren can easily change. In fact, given Ron's previous claims about being given sub-par engines/data, I'm not even sure that they realise that the chassis is the main issue that's been holding them back.

 

So even if Honda can make more gains, it might be worth next to nothing if the car the PU is in still ends up being a dud.


Edited by Huffer, 15 November 2014 - 05:06.


#11 Gary Davies

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 05:06

Like I said before, I don't expect Honda to have a good engine. In fact I'll be surprised if they're not dead last in performance. 

Honest question. Why?



#12 HPT

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 05:08

The problem is that the Honda PU is going to be stuck in the back of a McLaren - and let's be honest, their weakness hasn't been engine/PU related for the last couple of years. It's been chassis related, and I'm not confident that this is something that McLaren can easily change. In fact, given Ron's previous claims about being given sub-par engines/data, I'm not even sure that they realise that the chassis is the main issue that's been holding them back.

 

They had a top car as recent as 2012. Boullier said the fuel makes a lot of difference in performance (we know that Shell has been chasing performance with Ferrari via their fuel) and the Merc engine is optimised with Petronas petrol so perhaps this is why they are struggling relative to other Merc engined teams without a fuel sponsor that could use Petronas.



#13 Huffer

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 05:24

They had a top car as recent as 2012. Boullier said the fuel makes a lot of difference in performance (we know that Shell has been chasing performance with Ferrari via their fuel) and the Merc engine is optimised with Petronas petrol so perhaps this is why they are struggling relative to other Merc engined teams without a fuel sponsor that could use Petronas.

They may have had a competitive car in 2012, but there's no point living on past glories.

 

In terms of fuel, what fuel are Williams using? I can't find who their current fuel partner is, but for next season, it's Petrobras. Williams are not being supplied by Petronas, and yet, Williams have been as close to Mercedes with the Mercedes PU as any team could get. No, I'm not sure that I believe McLaren's assertions regarding the PU and various excuses relating to fuel etc. One thing that I keep in mind when seeing them pass the blame to Mercedes for their current poor performance, is that McLaren lack a title sponsor and that it is key for them to try and sell themselves as a team with potential to be at the top once more - and part of that may involve trying to avoid some of the blame for producing a bad car for two seasons on the trot.



#14 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 05:48

Sometimes it's hard to tell whether you have a bad car or two mediocre drivers.



#15 stuF1

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 06:05

They may have had a competitive car in 2012, but there's no point living on past glories.

 

In terms of fuel, what fuel are Williams using? I can't find who their current fuel partner is, but for next season, it's Petrobras. Williams are not being supplied by Petronas, and yet, Williams have been as close to Mercedes with the Mercedes PU as any team could get. No, I'm not sure that I believe McLaren's assertions regarding the PU and various excuses relating to fuel etc. One thing that I keep in mind when seeing them pass the blame to Mercedes for their current poor performance, is that McLaren lack a title sponsor and that it is key for them to try and sell themselves as a team with potential to be at the top once more - and part of that may involve trying to avoid some of the blame for producing a bad car for two seasons on the trot.

 

Williams are currently using petronas fuel this year, they switch to petrobras next year. Will be interesting to see what difference this has on Fw37 performance

 

Source: http://www.williamsf...with-Petrobras/



#16 baddog

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 06:21

Honda have a large advantage this year.. they can analyse everything and wok on their engine freely with the others as partially known targets (of course from outside only so much can be known but a lot can). Ferrari and Renault know more but can do less.



#17 HPT

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 06:31

They may have had a competitive car in 2012, but there's no point living on past glories.

 

In terms of fuel, what fuel are Williams using? I can't find who their current fuel partner is, but for next season, it's Petrobras. Williams are not being supplied by Petronas, and yet, Williams have been as close to Mercedes with the Mercedes PU as any team could get. No, I'm not sure that I believe McLaren's assertions regarding the PU and various excuses relating to fuel etc. One thing that I keep in mind when seeing them pass the blame to Mercedes for their current poor performance, is that McLaren lack a title sponsor and that it is key for them to try and sell themselves as a team with potential to be at the top once more - and part of that may involve trying to avoid some of the blame for producing a bad car for two seasons on the trot.

 

It's not about living in past glories. I merely pointed out they had a joint and sometimes outright fastest car only recently. And they have a history of producing really fast cars in between dud ones. So there is a trend there. As stuF1 pointed out above, Williams are using Petronas this year.



#18 Ilmor

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 06:39

Sometimes it's hard to tell whether you have a bad car or two mediocre drivers.

 

HP deficits between different engines are quite easy to estimate in F1. They can get it down correctly to a few percent. 



#19 Talisker

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 06:48

Honda have a large advantage this year.. they can analyse everything and wok on their engine freely with the others as partially known targets (of course from outside only so much can be known but a lot can). Ferrari and Renault know more but can do less.

 

Yeah but the others have had a huge advantage over Honda this year. Swings and roundabouts.



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#20 aguri

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 06:57

They may have had a competitive car in 2012, but there's no point living on past glories.

 

In terms of fuel, what fuel are Williams using? I can't find who their current fuel partner is, but for next season, it's Petrobras. Williams are not being supplied by Petronas, and yet, Williams have been as close to Mercedes with the Mercedes PU as any team could get. No, I'm not sure that I believe McLaren's assertions regarding the PU and various excuses relating to fuel etc. One thing that I keep in mind when seeing them pass the blame to Mercedes for their current poor performance, is that McLaren lack a title sponsor and that it is key for them to try and sell themselves as a team with potential to be at the top once more - and part of that may involve trying to avoid some of the blame for producing a bad car for two seasons on the trot.

 

The customer engines are all worse than the works team engine. Fuel only exacerbates this problem.



#21 aguri

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 06:59

A pass mark for Honda would be to produce an engine that is better than either the Ferrari or Renault. 

 

It would be a good effort if they came in straight away and produced an engine better than both Ferrari and Renault. 

 

It would be a great effort if they produced an engine close enough to the Merc that McLaren could win a race.



#22 HoldenRT

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 07:02

The proof is on the track.



#23 syolase

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 07:48

A second? With engine freeze regs? I don't believe that...

What engine freeze? You can change like half of the engine for next year. Horner's bollocks already got to you.



#24 hittheapex

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:08

Sorry, but Benson has such a poor track record that if he says the Mercedes engine will be a second a lap faster, it could just as easily be a second a lap slower. Anyway, even if his article is true, there are 4 months until the start of the 2015 season, plenty of time for things to change dramatically. McLaren turned around their 2011 testing woes in the space of a few weeks.



#25 Newbrray

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:19

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/30060635

 

 

For the sake of the sport next year I hope Honda can find another second. If there engine is that good and they can find another second Alonso should take it to the Merc's next year.

 

shhhhhh….Don't let Horner or Mattiacci hear that



#26 Mat13

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:43

I would have thought the engine is only good for another second provided the aerodynamics and downforce are. I wonder if the author is suggesting that there is another second a lap to be had with the current aero, or taking into account improved aero next year?

#27 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:56

Are they allowed to change close to 50% of the engine between 2014-2015? so that the 2015 Mercedes engine can be 50% different?


Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 15 November 2014 - 08:56.


#28 Jamiednm

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 09:00

'Insiders', 'Sources'. Sounds like a lot of speculation to me.

#29 Flamini

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 09:31

Benson has good sources I think. This is  from this year, from February:

 

""Ferrari's form has been difficult to read so far. They have periodically popped up at the top of the times. And a race run done by Fernando Alonso at the first Bahrain test looked reasonably competitive compared to a simultaneous one by Mercedes driver Nico Rosberg, as far as it was possible to tell. But a senior Ferrari figure revealed this week that the team believe their engine is about 75bhp down on the Mercedes, and they don't understand how their rivals are getting so much power while staying within the fuel restriction introduced this year. Which does not paint too pretty a picture for Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen"

 

People were also sceptical after this article.



#30 hittheapex

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 09:38

Benson has good sources I think. This is  from this year, from February:

 

""Ferrari's form has been difficult to read so far. They have periodically popped up at the top of the times. And a race run done by Fernando Alonso at the first Bahrain test looked reasonably competitive compared to a simultaneous one by Mercedes driver Nico Rosberg, as far as it was possible to tell. But a senior Ferrari figure revealed this week that the team believe their engine is about 75bhp down on the Mercedes, and they don't understand how their rivals are getting so much power while staying within the fuel restriction introduced this year. Which does not paint too pretty a picture for Fernando Alonso and Kimi Raikkonen"

 

People were also sceptical after this article.

Fair enough, but even a clock that has stopped is right twice a day. Thing is, we won't know if he was right or not because of all the development work that will take place between now and winter testing.



#31 kimster89

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 09:39

Thats why Mercedes is so against unfreeze. They know their PU domination will continue. No reason why it shouldnt.



#32 Donkey

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 10:12

Weren't there rumours just a few months ago that the Honda engine was down on power, performance and reliability during bench testing?

 

I wouldn't believe anything at this stage and wait until at least the 2nd, even 3rd pre-season test to judge the relative pace of the new Honda engine and improved Merc. Honda are are obviously looking for some free publicity with the climax of the F1 season coming up and it really doesn't make sense for them to reveal detailed performance specifications to their rivals at this stage. It's all smoke and mirrors.



#33 Zoetrope

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 10:29

It's not Honda, but McLaren who should raise their game. They were badly beaten by Williams and almost matched by Force India with the same Mercedes engine. They barely make it into top 5 teams at the moment. Mercedes on the other hand is a new powerhouse comparable to Red Bull in their respective era. There is much hope around F1 fans for McLaren to challenge Mercedes, but to me it just looks ridiculous. Actually I put more faith in Red Bull and Renault in closing the gap to Mercedes than any other team.



#34 hittheapex

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 10:33

It's not Honda, but McLaren who should raise their game. They were badly beaten by Williams and almost matched by Force India with the same Mercedes engine. They barely make it into top 5 teams at the moment. Mercedes on the other hand is a new powerhouse comparable to Red Bull in their respective era. There is much hope around F1 fans for McLaren to challenge Mercedes, but to me it just looks ridiculous. Actually I put more faith in Red Bull and Renault in closing the gap to Mercedes than any other team.

:up: No good having a great engine in a mediocre car.



#35 blacky

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 10:49

What I think:

It wouldn't surprise me if the basis of the PU is (very?) good, no special weak point, because they had enough time to study the concepts of their competitors and think on their own. The question will be: Will they find enough time over the winter to develop the PU that it can challenge the 2015 PU from Merc?



#36 DanardiF1

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 11:02

To be fair on McLaren somewhat they will have had almost certainly the least amount of service from Mercedes this year knowing that they're switching to Honda. Whilst it's true their chassis should be better in a sense they have had one arm tied behind their back whereas certainly Williams with Toto's previous involvement there will have had much more comprehensive support. They built a great car but they've had great help from Mercedes too.



#37 apreading

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 11:04

To be fair on McLaren somewhat they will have had almost certainly the least amount of service from Mercedes this year knowing that they're switching to Honda. Whilst it's true their chassis should be better in a sense they have had one arm tied behind their back whereas certainly Williams with Toto's previous involvement there will have had much more comprehensive support. They built a great car but they've had great help from Mercedes too.

 

Not to mention that Toto is still a shareholder in Williams...



#38 BadVoice

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 11:14

Not to mention that Toto is still a shareholder in Williams...

 

Not anymore



#39 Timstr11

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 11:26

I doubt this '1 second per lap faster' story.

It's easy to make up something like this given the 2014 engine's success.

All manufacturers will make significant progress. Some more than others. 

The law of diminishing returns should give Ferrari and Renault the potential of an even bigger performance jump.

Even though it may not be enough to equal Mercedes, they will be closer.

 

And then there's Honda who via McLaren new exactly what to aim for. They could be a huge surprise.



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#40 apreading

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 11:27

I thought he sold some of his shareholding during this season (since williams have been doing well with Merc engines), but still has some?



#41 Skizo

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 11:30

Mclaren told after test they not run the engine/car at racing speed,and they are close to 2014Mercedes engine?....This mean at full power they will be at least 3-4 sec faster than 2015 Mercedes engine!!!! 1000HP!!!!from ICE only!!!!

 

Journalism i love it...Insiders...Same insiders months ago "told" journalists how horrible the Honda engine is,down on power,use too much fuel,bad reliability,and they far far back with the project,they will be not ready for 2015 tests?

 

I'm sorry,but until a Honda guy,or somebody from Mclaren say something about engine,it's nothing,on the level of Carlos Sainz Jr.>Mclaren.



#42 bonjon1979a

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 11:45

A glance back at last years engine thread suggests that rumours shouldn't be so quickly dismissed. Lots of what we heard was bang on the money, ferrari with a compact unit, Renault behind where they want to be and merc looking great. I think brundle has already said that apparently merc have found another 60hp or so.

#43 Ilmor

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 13:17

Yes, the rumours for 2014 were all pretty much bang on the money. I for one will treat most engine-related rumours as pretty credible for this year. 

 

Good news about Honda then. Well, at least not bad news. 



#44 TheSpecialOne

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 13:33

The real question for me, is this. Is there a Mercedes PU sat somewhere in the bowels on Honda HQ (supplied by mclaren)? If I were a betting man, I'd say so...

Edited by TheSpecialOne, 15 November 2014 - 13:34.


#45 Ilmor

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 13:38

The real question for me, is this. Is there a Mercedes PU sat somewhere in the bowels on Honda HQ (supplied by mclaren)? If I were a betting man, I'd say so...

 

Figuratively yes, literally no. Most of the core PU details are shared during early installation days. Merc HPP will have been more and more cagey with sharing details as the year went by. Williams, for example, will have already learnt about some new directions for next year, McLaren will not have. 


Edited by Ilmor, 15 November 2014 - 13:39.


#46 Newbrray

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 13:38

A glance back at last years engine thread suggests that rumours shouldn't be so quickly dismissed. Lots of what we heard was bang on the money, ferrari with a compact unit, Renault behind where they want to be and merc looking great. I think brundle has already said that apparently merc have found another 60hp or so.

 

Yeah Brundle mentioned that during the Sky coverage of Brazilian GP 



#47 MortenF1

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 13:40

Yeah, because that would be possible, bringing a Mercedes PU to Honda without Mercedes knowing!  :rolleyes:



#48 TheSpecialOne

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 13:42

Once a customer 'receives' a PU it must be impossible to monitor 24/7. Either what I mentioned before, or honda engineers in Woking taking apart a merc PU, they'll have seen it.

#49 Imateria

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 13:47

The real question for me, is this. Is there a Mercedes PU sat somewhere in the bowels on Honda HQ (supplied by mclaren)? If I were a betting man, I'd say so...

A fool and his money.....



#50 Imateria

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 13:49

Once a customer 'receives' a PU it must be impossible to monitor 24/7. Either what I mentioned before, or honda engineers in Woking taking apart a merc PU, they'll have seen it.

You do realise that those engines come with Merc engineers embedded with the customer teams to make sure it works, right?