Jump to content


Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Vettel to Ferrari in 2015


  • Please log in to reply
633 replies to this topic

#601 Eff1NZ

Eff1NZ
  • Member

  • 171 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 20 December 2014 - 22:39

Truth is, none of us will know anything about the ins and outs of the contracts - if he had similar break clauses in previous incarnations of it, if either Vettel or Alonso were unwilling to drive with each other, or what. If Ferrari were shopping around for a distinct reliable number 2 as long as Alonso was laying golden eggs and they wanted to keep him happy, then they definitely weren't looking at Vettel until Alonso exited stage right.
 
Having said that, for fulfilling a childhood dream, will take any opportunity to drive in red blah blah blah he's picked a shrewd time to do it (which isn't to say I don't think it's a childhood dream, I just think that sometimes dreams and practicality had to meet.)


Absolutely.

Vettel is my favorite driver on the grid. Before this year I might even have argued that he was the best driver on the grid. I am not a fan of Alonso. So much so that I have not cared for Ferrari (my favorite team ever since I started following F1 from before most of you were born) since he joined. He's just too sneaky for my taste. But I can admit that as a driver he is very, very good. After this past year, I would rate him as second best, behind Hamilton. The latter bested him head to head as a rookie, so to my mind there is no question there. I'm not a Hamilton fan either. Now Ricciardo may be the equal or better than one or both of those two, but we really have to wait to make that determination.

So, right now, Vettel is at best #4 by my reckoning. Unless Ricciardo proves to be so good that he would have shaded the other two also.

So, absolutely, you are so right: Dream and opportunity coincided in this case. And that is so fortunate for Vettel. I have serious doubts that he would have been able to realise his childhood dream, if the opportunity had not presented itself right now. The manner in which Ricciardo so comprehensively outclassed him, raises serious doubt that he would not have suffered the same fate again in 2015. Pride would have prevented Ferrari from hiring a clear #2, IMO. And they would have had other options to hire an ascending talent rather than one in decline, as Vettel would have been percieved to be. Now one can argue that his problems were an aberration. Weak IMO but with a slight chance of being plausible.

For my part, I am so, so delighted. My favorite driver in my once again favorite team. I can only pray that he and future events will conspire to remove the smudge on his record that this season has been for him.

Advertisement

#602 JimiKart

JimiKart
  • Member

  • 457 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 20 December 2014 - 22:40

Wasn't Ferrari in a similar state when another German joined?

 

No they weren't at all because then you had a chance to do something, then you had unlimited spending and testing, you had special qualifying engines etc. To think that today you could do with Ferrari what was done in the todt/brawn/schey years is a dream alright, a pipe dream.



#603 FullWets

FullWets
  • Member

  • 193 posts
  • Joined: December 14

Posted 20 December 2014 - 22:44

Ferrari's "state" throughout the 90s is amongst the most mischaracterised of F1 discussion points. They reached their nadir in '92 but they demonstrated clear improvement during every subsequent season leading up to Schumacher's arrival. But for unreliability, the 412 T2 in the hands of Alesi could have won three to four races. The only hiccup in this progress, and the cause of this mischaracterisation, is Ferrari's initial struggles with the V10 engine. They still finished second in the championship because the car was no slouch when it worked.

 

Contrasting Schumacher, Vettel is arriving during the period of great upheaval, and not four years after the dust has already settled. When Schumacher brought Brawn along, they were additions to the structures put in place by Todt and di Montezemolo. Ferrari's latest managerial regime has been extant for less than a month and their technical structure, never mind their technical team, is still in a period of fertilisation. 

 

Ferrari are still on a downward trajectory and squandering hundreds of millions as they decline - even Vettel himself is unproven under these new regulations. I wouldn't compare Ferrari of 2014 to Ferrari of any season in the 1990s other than '92.

 

Exactly. Schumacher went to Ferrari when Todt had already started putting in place a well structured direction of the team and he benefited from that. It was also Todt that brought Brawn and Byrne to replace Barnard. Now Ferrari has a tobacco executive as TP with zero experience leading a racing team, just because he should be friends with Bernie, and until now no big technical name has accepted their offers, apparently because they seem too keen of keeping a political influence in the technical team. This is by no means the "fresh starting point" that leads to the top. The only positive sign that I'm seeing now is that Allison seems a very competent guy and will have apparently no more "sacred cows" in the technical team compromising his development direction, together with the apparently fixed wind tunnel. Maybe they get a decent package for next year (this year's was a complete disaster so it cannot possibly get much worse than that) but still not the ingredients there for being the best IMO



#604 Dolph

Dolph
  • Member

  • 12,109 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 20 December 2014 - 22:52

Well, Massa left Ferrari last year. And after 2012 and 2011 there were also lots of discussions with other drivers to replace him (Kubica and Webber among them). Why did Seb not jump to Ferrari given there was an empty seat there, if that dream of childhood was so important to him, even more than winning WDC in RBR?

 

Do you think Alonso would have allowed that?



#605 aramos

aramos
  • Member

  • 1,498 posts
  • Joined: December 14

Posted 20 December 2014 - 23:08

Do you think Alonso would have allowed that?

 

I doubt Alonso allowed Raikkonen. 



#606 FullWets

FullWets
  • Member

  • 193 posts
  • Joined: December 14

Posted 20 December 2014 - 23:43

Absolutely.

Vettel is my favorite driver on the grid. Before this year I might even have argued that he was the best driver on the grid. I am not a fan of Alonso. So much so that I have not cared for Ferrari (my favorite team ever since I started following F1 from before most of you were born) since he joined. He's just too sneaky for my taste. But I can admit that as a driver he is very, very good. After this past year, I would rate him as second best, behind Hamilton. The latter bested him head to head as a rookie, so to my mind there is no question there. I'm not a Hamilton fan either. Now Ricciardo may be the equal or better than one or both of those two, but we really have to wait to make that determination.

So, right now, Vettel is at best #4 by my reckoning. Unless Ricciardo proves to be so good that he would have shaded the other two also.

So, absolutely, you are so right: Dream and opportunity coincided in this case. And that is so fortunate for Vettel. I have serious doubts that he would have been able to realise his childhood dream, if the opportunity had not presented itself right now. The manner in which Ricciardo so comprehensively outclassed him, raises serious doubt that he would not have suffered the same fate again in 2015. Pride would have prevented Ferrari from hiring a clear #2, IMO. And they would have had other options to hire an ascending talent rather than one in decline, as Vettel would have been percieved to be. Now one can argue that his problems were an aberration. Weak IMO but with a slight chance of being plausible.

For my part, I am so, so delighted. My favorite driver in my once again favorite team. I can only pray that he and future events will conspire to remove the smudge on his record that this season has been for him.

Even when I don't fully share your opinions on drivers, I have to give you credit for making a difference between having a favorite driver and rating him as the best. Pretty mature and uncommon mindset for someone following a 4WDC winner... :up:



#607 CrucialXtreme

CrucialXtreme
  • Member

  • 4,414 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 20 December 2014 - 23:49

Here's a technical look at why Seb struggled in 2014. Pretty good read--> Tech Analysis: The Secrets Why Vettel's Struggles In 2014

#608 FullWets

FullWets
  • Member

  • 193 posts
  • Joined: December 14

Posted 20 December 2014 - 23:59

I doubt Alonso allowed Raikkonen. 

Exactly. So much for Alonso's alleged veto right...

Still, I fail to understand why people think that Alonso should have feared Vettel in such cars as he was driving in Ferrari. Given how the German suffered against Webber when the car was not exactly going on rails, IMO he would have not looked much better than Massa.


Edited by FullWets, 21 December 2014 - 00:03.


#609 currupipi

currupipi
  • Member

  • 1,686 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 21 December 2014 - 00:21

Here's a technical look at why Seb struggled in 2014. Pretty good read--> Tech Analysis: The Secrets Why Vettel's Struggles In 2014


Dont know what 2010 season the author was watching,the only reason it was close was because of reliablity and rb crashing into each other,to try to put it across that the ferrari was faster at times is ludicrous, and he makes it sound as if only vettel was hampered in 2014, like if all the rest of the drivers got the car they wanted

#610 aramos

aramos
  • Member

  • 1,498 posts
  • Joined: December 14

Posted 21 December 2014 - 01:15

Here's a technical look at why Seb struggled in 2014. Pretty good read--> Tech Analysis: The Secrets Why Vettel's Struggles In 2014

 

There is very little technical analysis in that article. 

 

 

 

the RB6 was not the fastest chassis on the grid throughout the year. 

 

Maybe it was outpaced at 2 or 3 races. 

 

The authors point is that the cars this season are different from how Sebastian Vettel would ideally prefer them. I'm sure thats the case for half the drivers on the grid (if not all of them) ever driver prefers more downforce, its simply easier to drive a car in that specification. 



#611 sennafan24

sennafan24
  • Member

  • 8,362 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 21 December 2014 - 01:23

I'm a Ferrari guy and I support Alonso. I'm not a fan of Seb and have been quite critical of him over the years. I simply think he had a chance to fulfill his childhood dream and took the opportunity. Am I right? I don't know. It's just my opinion, an objective opinion.

Fair enough.

 

But I suspect that there was more to Seb's choice than "a chance to furfill a childhood dream". Do not get me wrong, I think Seb's admiration for Ferrari was the one of the biggest factors in his choice to leave Red Bull, if not the main factor.

 

My only point of contention is this. If prospects at R.B were still cushy (I.E, a dominant car and a teammate he had easily beaten in 2014), and if Alonso was still at Ferrari, would Seb have accepted an offer from Ferrari under those conditions to simply follow his childhood dream?

 

I do not know for certain, as like yourself, I only offer an objective opinion. However, my opinion is that Seb would have probably stayed at R.B if the conditions were a tad different. I think it was a situational move. The timing and circumstances were just right.



#612 pusko

pusko
  • Member

  • 990 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 21 December 2014 - 02:27

This article again shows Alonso in a good light. Seb needs this, Kimi that, Button something else....And you give Fred anything and gets the most out of it...for the last 10 years that is.
On a topic: Seb was the best Ferrari could get. Nothing more, nothing less. What would happn if Ric and Seb were available to SF?
I also fear that Seb and Kimi will have a very though 2015. I predict a car even less competitive. Q3 could be a success...

#613 aramos

aramos
  • Member

  • 1,498 posts
  • Joined: December 14

Posted 21 December 2014 - 02:53

I also fear that Seb and Kimi will have a very though 2015. I predict a car even less competitive. Q3 could be a success...

The main issue I foresee is the difficulty ascertaining individual form between them. Because you have two drivers in one team that have both been behind the benchmark that their team mates set the year prior. This is the big difficulty going forward for the team. Just like I get the perception that this years Williams would be capable of more in the hands of one of the true top drivers. Vettel and Raikkonen were brilliant drivers under the outgoing Formula, but have both showed major weakness under these new regulations.


Edited by aramos, 21 December 2014 - 02:56.


#614 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 4,529 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 21 December 2014 - 03:41

Fair enough.

 

But I suspect that there was more to Seb's choice than "a chance to furfill a childhood dream". Do not get me wrong, I think Seb's admiration for Ferrari was the one of the biggest factors in his choice to leave Red Bull, if not the main factor.

 

My only point of contention is this. If prospects at R.B were still cushy (I.E, a dominant car and a teammate he had easily beaten in 2014), and if Alonso was still at Ferrari, would Seb have accepted an offer from Ferrari under those conditions to simply follow his childhood dream?

 

I do not know for certain, as like yourself, I only offer an objective opinion. However, my opinion is that Seb would have probably stayed at R.B if the conditions were a tad different. I think it was a situational move. The timing and circumstances were just right.

 

If Fred was at Ferrari, he would have not went there. It's pretty much simple as that. 



#615 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 11,867 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 21 December 2014 - 04:59

Fair enough.

 

But I suspect that there was more to Seb's choice than "a chance to furfill a childhood dream".

 

 

He needs a reputation boost, Ferrari will do that for him. Also he goes from having a strong teammate to a potentially weak one.


Edited by kosmos, 21 December 2014 - 04:59.


#616 aramos

aramos
  • Member

  • 1,498 posts
  • Joined: December 14

Posted 21 December 2014 - 05:23

He needs a reputation boost, Ferrari will do that for him. Also he goes from having a strong teammate to a potentially weak one.

 

Which is all well and good if he wins, but should he lose to Raikkonen whilst not performing well (no wins or championships) it will be a double hit to his reputation. At least at Red Bull he had the chance to fight with the driver many ranked as the best in 2014. 



#617 Jimisgod

Jimisgod
  • Member

  • 4,954 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 21 December 2014 - 07:18

But we are all assuming he'll beat Kimi or it's career over, Ferrari shuffling him out of a drive.

#618 DrF

DrF
  • Member

  • 2,581 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 21 December 2014 - 08:30

What if Kimi has another good season and beats Seb?

#619 anneomoly

anneomoly
  • Member

  • 863 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 21 December 2014 - 09:50

But we are all assuming he'll beat Kimi or it's career over, Ferrari shuffling him out of a drive.

 

Well ,they'd have to pay him off, but it's not like Ferrari have never done that before...

 

That scenario depends on how Kimi beats him. Performance against teammate is a factor but not the only factor, especially when you've got all the tech data too. If Kimi beats him but they both look revived and fighty and like they're both wringing the neck of the thing and it's just that one beats the other by a thread, it's different to the two drivers who seemed to lack enthusiasm and motivation this year (ok, that's Kimi every year but you get what I mean.)



Advertisement

#620 prty

prty
  • Member

  • 8,386 posts
  • Joined: April 05

Posted 21 December 2014 - 09:53

Decent context & CH interview on SV

 

http://www.bbc.com/s...rmula1/30554028

 

 

Horner's words:

 

Horner said the banning of exhaust-influenced rear aerodynamics, a technology in which Red Bull had excelled in the previous four seasons, had a big effect on Vettel.

"The rule changes were significant and the two guys who seem to have been affected most are Seb and Kimi and I think taking away the rear downforce has actually been a big factor for Sebastian," Horner said.

"How he generated his lap time was very much using the rear of the car on entry into the slower corners, which was much diminished this year, and that together with the brake-by-wire system had taken away some of the feeling of the braking that he is so dependent on.

 

Hate to say I told you so, but:

 

 


prty, on 13 Nov 2014 - 22:59, said:

 

Kimi is the one who really needs th planted rear then :)
Actually its similar to vettel what he does. Make the rear slide at corner entry and then hope that it comes back at some point. The problem for him is, either when it doesnt come back (too oversteery for him), or when he cant make the initial slide, for which a sweetspot in the front end and brakes is needed. Then, again, he struggles.

 

:)


Edited by prty, 21 December 2014 - 09:54.


#621 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 11,867 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 21 December 2014 - 10:15

What if Kimi has another good season and beats Seb?

 

If Ferrari allows it.......



#622 DeVol

DeVol
  • Member

  • 1,098 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 21 December 2014 - 11:24

If the car is a dog, watching Seb and Kimi fight for minor positions will be like watching 2 bald men fighting over a comb.

#623 aramos

aramos
  • Member

  • 1,498 posts
  • Joined: December 14

Posted 21 December 2014 - 11:25

Horner's words:

 

Horner said the banning of exhaust-influenced rear aerodynamics, a technology in which Red Bull had excelled in the previous four seasons, had a big effect on Vettel.

"The rule changes were significant and the two guys who seem to have been affected most are Seb and Kimi and I think taking away the rear downforce has actually been a big factor for Sebastian," Horner said.

"How he generated his lap time was very much using the rear of the car on entry into the slower corners, which was much diminished this year, and that together with the brake-by-wire system had taken away some of the feeling of the braking that he is so dependent on.

 

Hate to say I told you so, but:

 

 

 

:)

 

He's been saying all year he doesn't like the regs. We're all aware of this, it shouldn't make any difference for an adaptable driver. 



#624 sennafan24

sennafan24
  • Member

  • 8,362 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 21 December 2014 - 14:53

If Fred was at Ferrari, he would have not went there. It's pretty much simple as that. 

Agreed

 

Check Seb's interview at Hungary last year, when rumours were flying around that Alonso was in talks with Red Bull. Seb did not seem keen on having Alonso as a teammate. 


Edited by sennafan24, 21 December 2014 - 14:54.


#625 FullWets

FullWets
  • Member

  • 193 posts
  • Joined: December 14

Posted 21 December 2014 - 16:04

This article again shows Alonso in a good light. Seb needs this, Kimi that, Button something else....And you give Fred anything and gets the most out of it...for the last 10 years that is.
On a topic: Seb was the best Ferrari could get. Nothing more, nothing less. What would happn if Ric and Seb were available to SF?
I also fear that Seb and Kimi will have a very though 2015. I predict a car even less competitive. Q3 could be a success...

I agree. For me a good driver must have raw speed, racecraft and adaptability, to put it short as there are so many characteristics involved. Vettel is fast but not very adaptable and his racecraft is arguable. All in all, he is not as good a driver IMO, and 2014 where the available material was not a perfect fit for him should have served him to prove many of us wrong. It was not the case.


Edited by FullWets, 21 December 2014 - 16:04.


#626 DeVol

DeVol
  • Member

  • 1,098 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 21 December 2014 - 22:11

Agreed

Check Seb's interview at Hungary last year, when rumours were flying around that Alonso was in talks with Red Bull. Seb did not seem keen on having Alonso as a teammate.


Alonso has always been rather critical of Seb's performance, saying "when he has a slower car, we'll see what he's made of"

Well, we will get another piece of that puzzle this year.

#627 aramos

aramos
  • Member

  • 1,498 posts
  • Joined: December 14

Posted 22 December 2014 - 00:11

Alonso has always been rather critical of Seb's performance, saying "when he has a slower car, we'll see what he's made of"

Well, we will get another piece of that puzzle this year.

 

He certainly didn't show much this year, but he gets another chance to impress next season likely as the all indications point to a Ferrari off the pace. 



#628 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 10,824 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 22 December 2014 - 01:07

Now Ferrari has a tobacco executive as TP with zero experience leading a racing team, just because he should be friends with Bernie, and until now no big technical name has accepted their offers, apparently because they seem too keen of keeping a political influence in the technical team. 

They would like to use their private test track for continuous testing but they can't, no wonder they are cross with other teams out-classing them politically and taking away their advantage.  :mad:



#629 Gorma

Gorma
  • Member

  • 2,713 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 22 December 2014 - 06:14

They would like to use their private test track for continuous testing but they can't, no wonder they are cross with other teams out-classing them politically and taking away their advantage. :mad:

What advantage? Your own track is only an advantage when there are no other tracks available to anyone else. I'd just call it convenient. Ferrari has had Fiorano for 40 years and the only time they've had an advantage is when they could outspend everyone else.

#630 matrix666777

matrix666777
  • Member

  • 34 posts
  • Joined: April 13

Posted 28 July 2015 - 10:35

With half a season gone, I've done a comparison with Schumacher '96 and it shows that Vettel is doing great :) More at http://www.tollkuci....-vs-Vettel-2015



#631 ninetyzero

ninetyzero
  • Member

  • 706 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 28 July 2015 - 18:02

With half a season gone, I've done a comparison with Schumacher '96 and it shows that Vettel is doing great :) More at http://www.tollkuci....-vs-Vettel-2015

 

What's that supposed to prove? :confused:



#632 Gorma

Gorma
  • Member

  • 2,713 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 28 July 2015 - 18:20

What's that supposed to prove? :confused:

It is just a comparison.



#633 ninetyzero

ninetyzero
  • Member

  • 706 posts
  • Joined: November 14

Posted 28 July 2015 - 18:29

It is just a comparison.

 

But why? People made the same comparisons when Alonso went to Ferrari as well but I don't get what it's supposed to prove. Vettel and Schumacher have nothing in common besides being German F1 WDC drivers who raced for Ferrari. There's nothing relevant to compare.


Edited by ninetyzero, 28 July 2015 - 18:30.


#634 shonguiz

shonguiz
  • Member

  • 3,714 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 28 July 2015 - 22:34

Easy there, some people like me are curious enough to be interested.